A Closer Look at Ephesians 1:13

Since scriptures show that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost do not occur simultaneously I have to disagree.

Paul's question alone proves this point. Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1) If receiving the Holy Ghost was automatic when would he make a distinction? Again, this occurred with the Samaritans as well. They believed Philip message and were water baptized in Jesus' name. It was days later that Peter and John came and prayed for them to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8)

this is not something to go on about as James makes clear what is going on

TRUER faith produces action

it's that simple. what came first? the action or the faith (you might state faith is an action but one only visible to God until it is put into 'physical' action...like cause and effect)

faith is complete without action if it is genuine. if someone in a wheel chair or a quadriplegic accepts Christ and they are incapable of putting legs to their faith, they are still saved

nope. been over this many many times.

actually, according to what you wrote about yourself, you were NOT saved then until you were water baptized years after you were saved

seriously? smh

What do you mean by "truer faith?"

Yes, that is what I see from scripture.

whoops. I meant simply 'true' as in saving faith. the r was an accident

I think we know what the other believes and are not in agreement.

so here is the post wherein you state the lapse between what I would state is saving faith and water baptism. so it seems you are clearly stating you were not saved for years.

I do not see that in scripture but it does seem to be your belief

I'm going to drop the conversation now because we are simply not going to agree

thanks

Scripture does NOT teach water baptism as necessary for salvation. I've already given 24 verses that show that believing/faith alone is the requirement for salvtion/eternal life.

Yes, water baptism is the symbol of the believer's identification as God's own possession.

When linked with salvation, baptism means baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is His indwelling the believer.

Not for salvation, but because of salvation.

I guess you didn't understand anything I explained.

Did the Jews get immersed "in the sea"? No. Did the Egyptian army get immersed "in the sea"? Yes. They died. They weren't saved in the water at all.

The Jews were saved FROM the water. Just like Noah was saved FROM the water that killed the rest of mankind.

OK, you really don't understand 1 Cor 10, or "baptisms".

All water baptisms are symbolic of an identification.

1. Jesus' baptism by John was symbolic of being identified with the Father's plan of salvation for mankind.
2. Water baptism of the believer is symbolic of being identified as being Christ's.

He was. You are free to have you own opinion. When Jesus was baptized by John, God the Father approved of His Son being identified with His Father's plan for mankind.

But why do you think Jesus was baptized?

And being "born again" is associated with baptism with the Holy Spirit.

FreeGrace2 said:
People are baptized in the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe in Christ. Eph 1:13,14
Why would anyone think that Paul, who wrote Eph 1:13,14 disagree with his own statement?

Philip had no "exchange" with the Samaritans regarding baptism.

During the transitional period of the church, that was true. But given all that Paul wrote later on, after the establishment of the church, that was no longer true. And I've shown you the verses that prove that.

Again, this was during the transitional period of the establishment of the church.

What did Paul tell the Galatian believers in Gal 3:2,5?

And what occurred with Cornelius and his household when they believed Peter's message? Hint: 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

that's a good thing! yeah?

FreeGrace2 said:
Did the Jews get immersed "in the sea"?
I was thinking that it was a good thing that the Egyptian army got immersed in the sea.

Wansvic said:

Please take the time to read the account. (Acts 19:10-20)These are not the same people as in the beginning of Acts chapter 19.

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What is clear from Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

The words "that believed" are translated from the Greek word pisteuō. The Greek word is in the perfect tense:


Those who confessed and shewed their deeds were already believers.

The fact that they confessed does not mean they were not born again. Each born again believer is instructed to confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive usour sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How many times must the believer be baptized?

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The significance of baptism is that once baptized, the born again one cannot go back to the previous lifestyle (bondage to sin). This is reflected in 1 Cor 10:2. The children of Israel could no more go back to the bondage of Egypt than the born again believer can go back to the bondage of sin. It's not like they could go back to Egypt and leave again, cross through the sea (re-baptized).

Wansvic said:

They were occult worshipping people who finally believed and accepted Paul's message after seeing the miracles God performed through him. They confessed and brought their occult books and burned them as proof of their genuine repentance.

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They were already believers. They believed prior to the incident with the seven sons of Sceva. However, as with most new believers, they participated in stuff prior to coming to faith which they were still involved in ... just as we see happening in our day and time with new believers (and even some believers who've been around awhile).


Expositor's Greek New Testament:

Acts 19:18. πολλοί τε: the τε shows another immediate result in the fact that those who were already believers were now fully convinced of the pre-eminence of the name of Jesus, and were all the more filled with a reverential fear of His holy name: “many also of those who had believed,” ...


Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

18. And many that believed] i.e. who had made a profession of their faith ... The Rev. Ver. “had believed” is the more correct tense.


Pulpit Commentary:

Verse 18. - Many also of them that had believed for and many that believed, A.V.; confessing and declaring for and confessed and showed, A.V. Many also of them that had believed. This and the following verse speak of that class of converts who had previously been addicted to magic arts.


David Guzik Study Guide for Acts 19:

b. Many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds: Apparently, before the sons of Sceva incident, many believers did not know they were involved in the demonic. They saw their actions in a far more innocent light, until they knew the reality of demonic activity.

...

iii. Christians must do this also today, removing books, images, computer files, statues, charms, games, or whatever else might have connection with demonic spirits. They should also destroy them so they are of no use to others.

I hope you don't mind my making one additional comment in regards to the topic.

Consider that we are to be the bride of Christ. As in the natural one is a finance prior to becoming a bride. Engagements can go on for some time before one becomes an official bride. This requires entering into a covenant. Covenantal responsibilities include accepting the proposal of marriage extended by one's bridegroom, taking on the bridegrooms name, and consummating the marriage. Without obedience to the requirements one remains a finance or may at one point return to the status of being single wishing to no longer enter into the commitment.

These steps can be easily seen as relating to obedience to the gospel message. Accept the Lord's proposal in repentance, become his official bride upon taking on his name and having the union consummated through the infilling of the Holy Ghost into one's body.

I truly believe the scriptures speak to this truth. And, therefore, having been obedient to just a portion of the gospel message I was simply His finance. Did I know this before hand? No. I only understood this after seeing the truth in scripture of the need to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. I saw it said it, I believed it to be true, and obeyed the command. After obedience to God's command I was no longer blind to the truth. What occurred is a direct parallel to what Jesus stated in John 3:3-5.

Jesus states in John 3:3 that once a person is reborn they can SEE (understand) the kingdom of God. He goes on to say a person cannot ENTER the kingdom of heaven until after they are born of water and Spirit. (John 3:5)

Continue to be blessed.

Jesus told John that water baptism was to be done to fulfill all righteousness. (Matt. 3:15)

Please don't take offense, I just don't see scripture aligning with your understanding.

Jesus tells Nicodemus not to be surprised that he must be born again. He makes this statement after saying everyone must be born of water and Spirit.

Again, Jesus said water baptism is to be done in order to fulfill all righteousness. (Matt 3:15)