Sabbath

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Aug 8, 2021
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Deuteronomy 21:18–21 is an explicit "shall" for parents to submit their unruly children to death. It isn't a punishment, it is a commandment of the law.

You believe unruly children should be executed?

You are really making it a habit of misrepresenting scripture by removing verses/passages from their context and causing them to be generalized. Whether its malicious or not, you are also missing important details within certain verses as well as ignoring some key things about my position that I have made very clear...

1. Deu 21:18-21 contains both laws that a son is breaking, and a penalty (capital punishment in this case) for breaking laws. Like I've stated many times, the messiah's body paid for the earthly penalties (curses) associated with breaking "old" covenant laws.

2. I'm not saying that this is what you were inferring, but just in case you were.... this is not speaking of young children. Unruly... yes. And someone's son... yes. But this is speaking of a "bitter, worthless, alcoholic"... not a young kid.

3. This is one out of context situation in an entire court system... A parent couldn't just decide that his son (not young child) was being unruly and just go stone him. Just like how we have for capital punishments in our society today, there were many other things in place before it could get to that point:


Deuteronomy 16:18-20

18 “Appoint judges and civil servants according to your tribes in all your cities that the Lord your God is about to give you, so they may judge the people impartially. 19 You must not twist justice, show favoritism, or take bribes, because a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the speech of the righteous. 20 You are to pursue justice—and only justice—so you may live and possess the land that the Lord your God is about to give you.”


Deuteronomy 17:8-13

8 “If a case is too difficult for you to decide with respect to bloodshed, civil claims, assault and battery, or other matters of dispute within your courts, bring it to the place that the Lord your God will choose. 9 Present the case to the Levitical priest or the judge at that time. When you have inquired and they have announced the verdict, 10 carry out the verdict that was declared to you at the place that the Lord will choose. Carefully observe all of their instructions to you 11 in accordance with what the Law says and in accordance with the verdict that will be handed to you. You must not deviate from the verdict that they declare to you either to the right or to the left. 12 If a man presumptuously disregards the priest who is serving the Lord your God there, or the judge, that person must die so you will purge evil from Israel. 13 Then all the people who hear will be afraid and will not act presumptuously again.”


Deuteronomy 19:15-21


15 “The testimony of one person alone is not to suffice to convict anyone of any iniquity, sin, or guilt. But the matter will stand on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 16 When a malicious witness takes the stand against a man and accuses him, 17 then both must stand with their dispute in the Lord’s presence, the priests, and the judges at that time. 18 The judges will investigate thoroughly. If the false witness lies in testifying against his relative, 19 do to him just as he intended to do to his relative. By doing this you will purge evil from your midst. 20 When others hear of this, they will be afraid and will not do such an evil deed again in your midst. 21 Your eyes must not show pity—life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, and foot for foot.”


Deuteronomy 24:16

16 “Fathers are not to be put to death on account of their children’s sin; nor are children to die on account of their fathers’ sin. Each person is to be put to death for his own sin.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Romans 2:13


13 For it is not merely those who hear the Law who are righteous in God’s sight. No, it is those who follow the Law, who will be justified.



James 1:25


25 But the one who looks at the perfect law of freedom and remains committed to it—thereby demonstrating that he is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of what that law requires—will be blessed in what he does.
thats funny.

No one, and I mean NO ONE has kept the law.

So this means that NO one, and I mean NO ONE will be saved according to your post.

way to go..

Instead of picking a verse out of a passage. Why dont you read the whole passage.

How do we become obedient tot he law? The gentiles did not have a law to follow. Yet they by prac those do the things in it.. How?

yoour looking to the law. WHICH NO ONE CAN KEEP. And attempting to be justified by it? You will fail my friend. You will fail.

Good luck. Because the law you love, WILL JUDGE YOU!
 
Aug 8, 2021
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thats funny.

No one, and I mean NO ONE has kept the law.

So this means that NO one, and I mean NO ONE will be saved according to your post.

way to go..

Instead of picking a verse out of a passage. Why dont you read the whole passage.

How do we become obedient tot he law? The gentiles did not have a law to follow. Yet they by prac those do the things in it.. How?

yoour looking to the law. WHICH NO ONE CAN KEEP. And attempting to be justified by it? You will fail my friend. You will fail.

Good luck. Because the law you love, WILL JUDGE YOU!

1 John 2:1-6

2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
1 John 2:1-6

2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
lol

What does this have to do with keeping the law AS GOD REQUIRES?

There are more than ten commands.. There are many more

How do we keep them. I have asked you numerous times. Why do you keep ignoring me?
 
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lol

What does this have to do with keeping the law AS GOD REQUIRES?

There are more than ten commands.. There are many more

How do we keep them. I have asked you numerous times. Why do you keep ignoring me?

You continue to ignore what I have been saying this whole time. I never said you can keep them all. We will all fall short and require grace. You think God didn't know that mankind wouldn't continue to break laws after adam and eve first sinned? Yet He added many more laws after that. The main figures in the bible didn't become righteous in God's eyes by being sinless... They were justified by striving to follow God's instructions (law) the best they could. Grace has always filled in for the lack of perfection for those that strive for love and obedience. It has always been those who have ignored the Fathers instructions altogether that have received the greatest penalties.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You continue to ignore what I have been saying this whole time. I never said you can keep them all. We will all fall short and require grace. You think God didn't know that mankind wouldn't continue to break laws after adam and eve first sinned? Yet He added many more laws after that. The main figures in the bible didn't become righteous in God's eyes by being sinless..
Your not the first one who has come in here pushing the law. .You keep tripping over your own words You say one thing, then you say something that contradicts what you said before. Case in point.
They were justified by striving to follow God's instructions (law) the best they could.

You dont get the fact WE CANT KEEP THE LAW. We can TRY OUR HARDEST< WE WILL STILL FALL SHORT. So in PUSHING the law. You are in effect WATERING DOWN THE LAW.

When you tell people to try their best to keep the law this is what you get

1. A person who waters down the law so he feels good about his law keeping. Because if he would look at it truthfully, he could not live with himself with the guilt
2. A person who judges others. Judges them for sins, These people look to others they see as worse sinners than themselves/ Again, their focus is on self, In making self not feel guilty
3. A person who looks at his life, and looks at the law. And sees the truth He can’t keep the law no matter hw hard he tries. So why bother anymore. There is no way I will make it. I might was well give up.

There is no forth option ther than maybe just maybe the person sees what the law teaches. I am guilty, and he repents and comes to Christ, THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW
Grace has always filled in for the lack of perfection for those that strive for love and obedience. It has always been those who have ignored the Fathers instructions altogether that have received the greatest penalties.[/QUOTE]

This is WRONG. Grace is for people who get on their knees and call out to God to save them. BECAUSE THEY CONFESS THEY CANT KEEP THE LAW

you are saying PEOPLE EARN GRACE BY TRYING THEIR BEST that is WORKS my friend.

Thats a false gospel.

Stop denying it
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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The context of Romans 14 is fasting. People were being judged based off of how and when they fasted.... This is not Gods law that they were being judged off of, but mad made rules. Verses in this chapter, and many others seem to be saying something they are not because they are taken out of context and applied in a very general manner.
Read the full chapter, it speaks of the day of worship. As such it gives people the freedom to worship every day of the week if they desire to.
My Church group met in the park at sunrise today like we do everyday. The early Church also met at sunrise daily too.

"on a stated day, to meet together before it was light, and to sing a hymn to Christ, as to a god, alternately; and to oblige themselves by a sacrament [or oath], not to do anything that was ill: but that they would commit no theft, or pilfering, or adultery; that they would not break their promises, or deny what was deposited with them, when it was required back again; after which it was their custom to depart, and to meet again at a common but innocent meal, " https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/pliny.html

Acts 2:46
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 
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Read the full chapter, it speaks of the day of worship. As such it gives people the freedom to worship every day of the week if they desire to.
This is incorrect. You will see the majority of the chapter talks about "eating." The small section where it mentions days (starting at verse 5) is still within the topic of conversation being fasting. That section is about which days to fast on, not worship.... and is not about the sabbath.
 
Aug 8, 2021
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Your not the first one who has come in here pushing the law. .You keep tripping over your own words You say one thing, then you say something that contradicts what you said before. Case in point.
Grace has always filled in for the lack of perfection for those that strive for love and obedience. It has always been those who have ignored the Fathers instructions altogether that have received the greatest penalties.
This is WRONG. Grace is for people who get on their knees and call out to God to save them. BECAUSE THEY CONFESS THEY CANT KEEP THE LAW

you are saying PEOPLE EARN GRACE BY TRYING THEIR BEST that is WORKS my friend.

Thats a false gospel.

Stop denying it

You accused me of contradicting myself, yet failed to point out where the contradiction was.

Writing in caps that "WE CANT KEEP THE LAW" is meaningless to the conversation because I have already said many times that we are not able to keep the law perfectly. So to keep posting that over and over holds no value. I will not be able to keep the law perfectly.... you will not... Adam didn't... Abraham didn't.... Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isiah, etc.

None of the biblical patriarchs were sinless, yet still were able to gain righteousness (God's approval).

The purpose of the law was not for us to keep it perfectly. Do you think God didn't know of mans sinful nature after what happened with Adam? Why do you think He kept on making laws after that?

Law gives us the standard to live by.... without it we have chaos. It is how we determine right from wrong. It is needed for mankind as a species to survive and thrive. The first law was procreation..."Be fruitful and multiply". Taking a day of rest, the dietary laws for our health and wellbeing. The law is pro life and pro nature. Disregarding the law is a slippery slope towards destruction.

If you are not keeping the law with the intent to get grace, then you are not "earning grace". Grace is a free byproduct.

Let's say you volunteer to help your neighbor move some furniture into their house. You may even know that they are wealthy and give out money all the time.... But you aren't concerned with that. You just happened to see them struggling and wanted to lend a helping hand. You finish helping them and go about your day. The next day you find a thank you card with $100 in your mailbox from that neighbor. That money was a free gift (grace). You helped your neighbor out of the kindness of your heart... simply because you believed it was the right thing to do. That is why we follow law..... not to do it perfectly.... not to obtain salvation.... simply because its the right thing to do.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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You accused me of contradicting myself, yet failed to point out where the contradiction was.

Writing in caps that "WE CANT KEEP THE LAW" is meaningless to the conversation because I have already said many times that we are not able to keep the law perfectly. So to keep posting that over and over holds no value. I will not be able to keep the law perfectly.... you will not... Adam didn't... Abraham didn't.... Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isiah, etc.

None of the biblical patriarchs were sinless, yet still were able to gain righteousness (God's approval).

The purpose of the law was not for us to keep it perfectly. Do you think God didn't know of mans sinful nature after what happened with Adam? Why do you think He kept on making laws after that?

Law gives us the standard to live by.... without it we have chaos. It is how we determine right from wrong. It is needed for mankind as a species to survive and thrive. The first law was procreation..."Be fruitful and multiply". Taking a day of rest, the dietary laws for our health and wellbeing. The law is pro life and pro nature. Disregarding the law is a slippery slope towards destruction.

If you are not keeping the law with the intent to get grace, then you are not "earning grace". Grace is a free byproduct.

Let's say you volunteer to help your neighbor move some furniture into their house. You may even know that they are wealthy and give out money all the time.... But you aren't concerned with that. You just happened to see them struggling and wanted to lend a helping hand. You finish helping them and go about your day. The next day you find a thank you card with $100 in your mailbox from that neighbor. That money was a free gift (grace). You helped your neighbor out of the kindness of your heart... simply because you believed it was the right thing to do. That is why we follow law..... not to do it perfectly.... not to obtain salvation.... simply because its the right thing to do.
Brother MailkB, i have been following your discussions on here and i do understand your position.

For myself, i have found two things to be TRUE and Helpful - for me, and that these Two Things help us to know God and keep His Commandments.

Jesus said, Unless you become like little children you will in no way enter the Kingdom of God.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

The Word of God clearly teaches that the Law is fleshly and carnal and is bondage.

Whereas the Spirit is Liberty for us, to continually move freely in Christ and in His Shepherding unto Good Pasture - Daily.
 
Aug 8, 2021
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Brother MailkB, i have been following your discussions on here and i do understand your position.

For myself, i have found two things to be TRUE and Helpful - for me, and that these Two Things help us to know God and keep His Commandments.

Jesus said, Unless you become like little children you will in no way enter the Kingdom of God.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

The Word of God clearly teaches that the Law is fleshly and carnal and is bondage.

Whereas the Spirit is Liberty for us, to continually move freely in Christ and in His Shepherding unto Good Pasture - Daily.


I do believe that the spirital component of the law should be prioritized over the physical. WHAT we are doing is pointless if it isn't done FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

I just disagree with one sentence that you just posted:

You said: "The Word of God clearly teaches that the Law is fleshly and carnal and is bondage."

1. To me, "The Word of God" is literally what God says.... His Word......... Not the bible, if thats what you were saying (If not, disregard).

2. I don't believe that the law as a whole is bondage. Only sin is (breaking the law). Keeping the law is freedom.



James 1:25

25 But the one who looks at the perfect law of freedom and remains committed to it—thereby demonstrating that he is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of what that law requires—will be blessed in what he does.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Not what I was saying... but what does "until heaven and earth disappear" mean to you?
It means as long as heaven and earth are here there will be legalists who don't understand simple scripture. :ROFL:
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Good way to avoid the scriptures that don't fit your ideology.
Oh. That's what I'M doing... :ROFL:

I didn't see you quote any scripture. You just stated a PART of a scripture. The part that you like. You ignored the rest of it.

I wonder why you ignored the rest of it? Is it because you DON'T like it? Or because you don't understand it?


I think its probably both.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Brother MailkB, i have been following your discussions on here and i do understand your position.
For myself, i have found two things to be TRUE and Helpful - for me, and that these Two Things help us to know God and keep His Commandments.
Jesus said, Unless you become like little children you will in no way enter the Kingdom of God.


For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

The Word of God clearly teaches that the Law is fleshly and carnal and is bondage.

Whereas the Spirit is Liberty for us, to continually move freely in Christ and in His Shepherding unto Good Pasture - Daily.
I began a panel yesterday with that verse on it :D

 
Aug 8, 2021
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Oh. That's what I'M doing... :ROFL:

I didn't see you quote any scripture. You just stated a PART of a scripture. The part that you like. You ignored the rest of it.

I wonder why you ignored the rest of it? Is it because you DON'T like it? Or because you don't understand it?


I think its probably both.


Let me help you out a little...


Matthew 5:18-19


18 because I tell all of you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished. 19 So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom from heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom from heaven


Luke 16:17

17 However, it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one stroke of a letter in the Law to be dropped.



Revelation 21:1

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and the first earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,713
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Let me help you out a little...
Luke 16:17
17 However, it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one stroke of a letter in the Law to be dropped.

Revelation 21:1
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and the first earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone.
You have dropped parts of the law :geek:

PS~ the law remains to condemn the faithless...

For there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
 
Aug 8, 2021
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You have dropped parts of the law :geek:

PS~ the law remains to condemn the faithless...

For there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
I've dropped parts of the law... what do you mean?