predestination vs freewill

Thank you for your reply, awelight. Sorry that I didn't reply sooner but I've been pondering what to say given that
we seem to come from different perspectives on certain important doctrine but agree on others. So, it is a little difficult sometimes to find a pathway that will allow us to communicate effectively.
Anyway, since our dialoguing has the potential to drag into it the entire Bible, therefore, rather than responding
to you point by point, I thought a better approach to include the verses that form the basis of my point of view, (and I'll do my best to keep it as brief and direct as possible) after which, I'd be interested to hear yours (or anyone's).

Primarily, my understanding of the cause of spiritual transgressions, with the how, when and why of God's judgement and forgiveness rests upon several verses:

[Rom 5:19-20 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

[Rom 5:13-14 KJV]
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

[Rom 2:14-15 KJV]
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

So, I believe the above informs of several important doctrine:
1) That God established a direct linkage between Adam and Christ: Adam, who brought spiritual judgement; Christ who brought spiritual forgiveness made necessary by Adam.
2) That Christ's came specifically to overturn Adam's disobedience, its fruits, and it effects.
3) That by Adam's "disobedience" (notice the word used is "disobedience" not sin at this point- the disobedience of God's command to him), he had MADE many into sinners -- people who not only had not yet sinned, but who also did not even exist at the time of Adam's disobedience : yet before birth they already were sinners, but not because of themselves.
4) Adam became the testator of the Old Testament as Christ is of the New Testament. As testator, and as God had so warned him, he died spiritually immediately upon eating of the tree -- the death of a testator being a prerequisite for the bringing in of a testament.
5) The inheritance bequeathed to those who are beneficiaries of the Old Testament (which we all were at one time), is law. As verse 20 informs "law entered"; the result of law is sin; the result of sin is death.
6) That because of Adam's "disobedience" , the law whose purpose is to assess and identify offence (sin), caused sin to abound
7) That by his disobedience, Adam and Eve also both became the victims (along with all mankind) of the law they brought into being

Additionally, other verses confirm this:

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, according to the above, if death's sting is sin, and sin's strength is the law,
then the victory of verse 57 must be that of Christ's removal of the law from over the elect.
We can see that it traces back to Adam's and Eve's transgression of God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Therefore, taking the liberty to answer my own question if I may, as I do not believe spiritual sin itself can be directly forgiven in advance of it being committed, I do find however, that the law which caused spiritual sin to exist has been removed by Christ, and by that, sin's judgement; that is, if that which levied sin is destroyed, then destroyed also is sin's assessment and penalty.

[Rom 7:4-6 KJV]
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

[Rom 7:8 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

So, as this post isn't intended in any way to be a fully comprehensive explanation of all aspects of being made righteous but only some of the more important higher level doctrine as I understand them , I'm sure that you and others will be able to find areas not addressed or areas of disagreement, which I would be happy to explain or explore further.

I am going to reply to your post in reverse order. First though, it needs to be stated that you and I are not really believing something different; rather, our form of communication, in Soteriological terms is some what different. We may not totally agree as to Justification.

As to your last sentence about resurrection life - I am confused about what you meant by: "No resurrection without dying first."

Those who are or will be believing upon Christ were "dead" already. One cannot be any "deader" than one is in the fallen state. The New Birth imparted the principle of life. Baptism by the Spirit has placed one into Christ's body and thus, makes that one a partaker in His death and resurrection. It is a Baptism of Association with Christ. As you pointed out, it is symbolized by "water" baptism. The distinct difference is: Baptism by the Spirit is a Sovereign work of the Spirit. Baptism in "water" is participated in by the believer through his/her will out of a regenerated and enlightened mind; which desires to follow in the example, set forth in the Gospel, by his/her Lord. This is done out of a good Conscience and as the firs obedient act unto his/her Lord. It is a profession of faith announced in a public forum.

Baptism in the Spirit also has two advents. One past and one future. The Spirit has already placed Jew and Gentile into Christ's Body but He has not yet Baptized in Fire. The tongues, described as sitting upon the heads of believers at Pentecost, cannot be the Baptism in "fire" because they were described as "likened to flames of fire". When studying the idea of "fire" throughout Scripture, it is usually associated with final Judgement. The Lord is described as having eyes of fire in many passages. This is symbolic as to His role as Judge. I believe this Baptism, in the sphere of fire, is the preparation of the Saints, for their role as judges with Christ in the Kingdom age. Especially in light of Matthew 3:12. following V.11:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit, and in fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

However, the Baptism in Fire, is a tough one to resolve. Even great commentaries are all over the map on this one.

As to your belief about Justification, if I understand you correctly - your take seems to be the Reformers take on Justification by Faith. That it is by, the exercise of our faith that one is Justified before God. However, Scripture actually teaches, that our Justification before God is out of the Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. When we exercise faith, the belief in God's Word and Jesus Christ, it manifests before our own conscience that we have been Justified. Nothing we can do, would ever Justify us before God. Even in our relationship in Christ, we can do nothing that would Justify us. But because of our relationship in Christ, our acts of belief are constituted as Righteous acts. Only Jesus Christ - the God-Man - the appointed Lamb of God - could and did Justify all of the Elect. Therefore, through Regeneration and the study of Scripture, you come to know you are Justified before God by the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. The Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. Until you fully comprehend this statement of fact from Scripture - that the Lamb was "slain" before the foundation of the world - you cannot fully comprehend what is taught in Romans 3-6

You said it correctly the first time. Being baptized in the Spirit is corporate - Jew and Gentile have been placed into Christ's Body. It is indeed personal because this placement is about you as a believer saved by Grace. You were actually a member, of the Body of Christ, before you believed and came to know it. Just as your name had been written in the Lamb's Book of Life, eons before you were ever born.

I could go into a lot more detail on this but do not have the time right now. Think upon this - every time Paul mentions Baptism in the Spirit in his letters - it is always in the past tense. Paul never talks about Baptism in the Spirit as present tense or future.

Answer only this one question please: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God?

Isaiah 46:10

A. The death I was referring to was the death of the old man resulting from being crucified with Christ.

B The Reformers teach that faith is preceded by regeneration. Therefore, salvation is not of ourselves, but it is from first to last, a gift of God.

I agree with most of the rest that you posted.

Jesus Christ is God.
Answer your own question by seeking the Biblical, and even Hebrew, meaning of Sonship.

Addition to previous post responding to you.

Re. Justification

I believe there are two aspects to justification.

a. The forgiveness of transgressions

b. The imputation. Of Christ’s Righteousnes

It is not enough to be cleared of sins of commission. Our privation of righteousness must also be dealt with. Justification is the Gracious act of God that accomplishes both

Romans 4 teaches that righteousness is imputed to those who believe.

And since faith is granted and gifted by God, we do not say that that faith is of ourselves. It is also a gift from God.

So the blessed truth of “ salvation is a gift from God from beginning to end” is correctly held.

I agree with the last paragraph. The reason Paul always mentions Spirit Baptism in the past tense is because we are baptized by the Spirit when we believe.

I don’t know if I agree about being a member of Christ’s body before we believed. I believe we were Elect though.

If in my study of the scriptures, I am convinced of the things you are saying that I currently disagree with, I will accept them

I think we agree on quite a bit though, so we can stand together in Christ.

Thanks for your thoughts and lengthy explanation as to your understanding. Let's see where we are on this subject of sin and Law. You gave the following verses:

[Rom 5:19-20 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Adam, transgressed the only commandment given to him by God. Thou shalt not eat of it. God's Law, His Commandments and Ordinances carry the same weight. Law speaks to the Judicial Commandments and the others to Obedience or disobedience of God's precepts. Adam proved that mankind could not keep God's Commandments and thus violated the one Commandment God had given him. Any act of Disobedience. All acts of disobedience are sin. Too many individuals, even true believers, do not comprehend the full nature of sin. You are familiar with the verse that says - Redeem the time (Eph. 5:15-17)? Well, when a believer wastes time on unfruitful endeavors, that one is sinning against this command. The word "redeeming", is a Present Imperative in the Greek. An Imperative, is a command. Therefore, one not walking in a worthy manner or not doing the commandments of the Lord - is committing sin. I submit, that the true believer sins daily.

I am going to get deep here for a minute. A wise man told me one time: That Adam was doomed to failure from the beginning because anything God created could not be as Purely and Totally Holy as Himself. A Holy God cannot create Himself, therefore, anything God created was less than His Holy essence. This deficiency, would be covered over by God's own predetermined Sacrifice in Jesus Christ. Not even in Glory will the Elect be able to look upon the Pure Essence of God, absolutely considered. If they did, they would be obliterated by His Glory and Holiness. Thus, we shall ever see God in the Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. The Angels had the same problem as Adam. One third of them fell. Two Thirds were kept from falling by the Power of God. He keeps them obedient and in a Righteous state. This Two Thirds, of the Elect Angels, have never experienced a fall from Grace. Notice in the vision of Isaiah, the Angels surrounding the Throne of God have their eyes covered by two of the wings. Okay, enough of that, more to the point.

In V.20, the writer is saying: When the Law entered - this being the Holy Law of God (Ten Commandments), offence abounded. Not that offences became more numerous but that the knowing of them increased. To this end, where the knowledge of sin increases, because of the Law, the knowledge of God's Grace and what one has been delivered from also abounds

[Rom 5:13-14 KJV]
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

V.13, clearly states that the principle of sin - the sin nature - was in the world. Therefore, disobedience was in the world but it was not being imputed before the Law. Imputation is a legal term. All of mankind had union with Adam but their sins were not yet being imputed to them. However, V14 states that death reigned because of mankind being in Adam when he fell. Even though as individuals, they did not transgress the one commandment as Adam did. Nevertheless, if Adam fell, then all of Mankind would have failed as well.

[Rom 2:14-15 KJV]
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

All of fallen mankind has a social understanding of what is right and wrong. The Holy Law of God was not given to the Gentiles but only to God's chosen people - Israel. Verse 14, says that this Gentile understanding sometimes does what is in the Law by nature. Their understanding, has been taught to them and is in their heart. Taught by Laws of the Government, their Parents and in the Education system. This knowing right from wrong, even goes back to Chapter 1:

Rom 1:19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

This kind of Knowing of God, as described here, can be ascertained from nature by the natural man. The same is under discussion in Romans 2:14,15. Therefore, the unrighteous man accuses or excuses others by the law they live by.

You later made this statement, if taken literally, is a little alarming. It would make you an antinomian. You said: So, according to the above, if death's sting is sin, and sin's strength is the law, then the victory of verse 57 must be that of Christ's removal of the law from over the elect.

Christ fulfilled all of the Ceremonial and Sacrificial laws (Mat.5:17). He also fulfilled all of the Prophecies about His first advent. However, the Ten Commandments, the Holy Law of God is not set aside nor will it ever be. These Laws demonstrate the Holy nature of God. Christ proved the Laws permanency by giving us the Ten Commandments in just Two:

Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments the whole law hangs, and the prophets.

No one, with any real thought on the matter, would ever suggest that these two Holy Principles would be done away with. We shall always Love God with all our heart and mind and it will forever be a requirement. Believers, hopefully, always treat others as they treat themselves.

What changed? In Christ's summation of the Ten Commandments, is this: Christ spoke of the Ten - not as to the letter of the Law, which brings about death but to the spirit of the Law. This is what Paul was alluding to in Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

By Regeneration into a new life and the indwelling of the Spirit, we are enabled to do the spirit of the Holy Law laid down by Christ in Mat.22:37-39. The fulfillment of the letter of this Law, was accomplished by Christ. So that all who are in Christ, may serve in the sphere of the spirit of these two Laws.

[Rom 7:8 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

Finally, Paul was stating here, that without the giving of Law, sin was dead. Not that the sin nature was dead nor the sins of the people but that the knowledge of what sin is - was dead. Here is the whole argument from Paul:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet:
Rom 7:8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;

So Paul, as an unsaved Pharisee, knew what coveting was because of the letter of the Law. If he coveted something, he knew it was a sin. However, he did not know the true power of sin. That kind of knowledge came in verse 9. When Paul says, I was alive apart from the Law, once. Paul is referring to his religious days as a Pharisee. He did not see his sins clearly nor did he see the Law, as a Law of death; rather he saw the Law as away of life. Then in verse 9b - Paul says, when the commandment came, (Which is a reference to what occurred on the road to Damascus), sin revived. Every believer, by God's Grace, is able to perceive their sins, in the spirit of the Law. It is the first time that they feel the true gravity of their sins and this leads to Repentance.

Paul as a Pharisee, knew sin only at face value but when he was Regenerated, then he saw sin as it is. He then knew, the Law he thought he was keeping unto life, actually brought the reason for death and killed him. He now knew that the Law was not the life bringer but life is in Jesus Christ, whom he was persecuting.

Hope this might help you to see where I am coming from.

I agree with what you said here, except that it seems you don't go far enough with Romans 4.

Yes, Righteousness is counted or reckoned to us as believers. When one believes, it is credited to their individual account. However, as stated earlier, this does not Justify one before God. Justification is the work of Christ on behalf of the Elect. One who has been Justified, then is eligible to have righteous deeds credited to their account. Justification and Righteousness are not the same thing. Justification is the atonement work of Christ on the behalf of others. It is a legal setting aside of Guilt for the ones so Justified. This Justification, makes righteous deeds, as judged by the Lord, possible. Abraham was already Justified, when he believed God. This is why Abraham's belief was constituted as an act of righteousness. Indeed, before the reference of this act by Abraham, the OT tells us he was already a believer. (Gen.12:1).

Another problem with understanding Justification and Righteousness, lies in the Greek words being translated "imputed". IN the KJV, this word appears - 8 times in the NT. Once as - Impute, Six times as - Imputed and once as - Imputing. However, in the ASB, the word appears only once - Imputed. The other seven times, they translated the word as - Reckoned or accounted.

Because of our conversation here, I am going to have to do a Greek study on these words. There seems to be subtle difference between two Greek words used in Chapter 4, both translated "imputed" by the KJV. I find that unsettling.

You do believe that you are Elected before the foundation of the world - right? You believe you were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world - right?

It's no different then, in being placed into Christ's Body, as a corporate entity.

Interesting. I’ll look at Romans 4 and imputation again too. Let me know what conclusion will you come to. I will wait until I can crack open the book which be tomorrow most likely. God bless.

Yes

Yes

Not sure about second paragraph. It seems that we are baptized into his body in time. Being baptized into His Body is equated with drinking of one Spirit, is it not?

1 Cor 12:13. I always thought of that as one event. Do you see it as two? I guess the grammar does allow for that, but I’ll have to look closer.

I kind of subconsciously thought in 1 Cor 12:13 , Paul was using synonymous parallelism. Subconscious, because I read it that way without actually consciously thinking “ this is a synonymous parallel.”

"So, as this post isn't intended in any way to be a fully comprehensive explanation of all aspects of being made righteous but only some of the more important higher level doctrine as I understand them "


very interesting comment

I will attempt to go further into the subject of Baptism in the Spirit.

First we must establish, that Baptism in the Spirit, is a Baptism who's Executor is Jesus Christ. He is the one that Baptized believers into His Corporate Body with the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:

In one sense, Christ baptized the local assembly, (Acts 1:5), which is Corporate and in the other, the Universal Assembly, which is also Corporate, (1 Cor. 12:13). No where in the Book of Acts is an individual Baptized in the Spirit. It is always done upon a Corporate assembly.

We both know, that being Born of the Spirit is Individual and a Sovereign work of Grace upon the Recipient. It is immediate and irresistible. Now we need to distinguish how the two - Born of the Spirit and Baptized in the Spirit - are different.

I will not belabor the points of being born of the Spirit, we are both well versed in the subject but will point out one important contrast. This contrast is found in the prepositions used. One is born of - ἐκ (out of) - the Spirit but one is baptized in - ἓν (Locative of Sphere) - the Spirit. Therefore, the New Birth comes directly out of or out from the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Spirit, refers to one being in the "sphere" of the Holy Spirit. Said in other ways - being associated with the things of the Spirit and being in the influence of the Spirit.

Remember, The believers in Israel, during Christ's earthly ministry were being kept by the Lord Himself. (John 17:12). Their association was with Christ. He was their direct teacher and influencer. But when the Comforter came at Pentecost - the Holy Spirit - He took over as the keeper, teacher and influencer, until Christ returns. With Christ gone, the believers are now associated with the Spirit and the things of the Spirit. We are in the sphere of the Spirit and the Spirit directs our attention to our hope. A hope not yet seen. The hope that is in Jesus Christ. It is through the Scriptures and the Spirit's teachings that one witnesses for the cause of Jesus Christ. The world does not see our association with the Spirit because it is inward; but they may see our association with Christ because of our witness.

To prove and further explain the distinction, we need to go further back into the First Corinthian epistle.

Paul's lengthy argument, actually starts back in chapter 10. His emphasis is "union" with that which one does and with that which one observers. Either one, is associated with the Spirit, or Idolatry. Therefore, one walks in the Spirit or walks after this world. At the beginning of chapter 10, Paul begins with the association of National Israel. We are told, that all of Israel was baptized under the cloud and when they walked through the parted sea. This was a baptism unto Moses. This Baptism was also Corporate, as Israel was one large assembly. In other words, they were associated with Moses. This included both believers and unbelievers. While Moses was a "type" of Christ, he certainly was not Christ. Most of Israel was not following after the Lord but rather, after Moses.

Paul then pulls from this concept in chapter 12 - as he begins discussing spiritual gifts. The emphasis is on how these gifts are determined and to whom. There is much contention and jealousy over these gifts in Corinth because the Corinthians do not see the full purpose of these gifts. Paul argues for an united understanding of Christ's Body. Every believer that makes up the Universal Assembly, which Christ is building, are members of that Body. Every believer, has been given gifts by the Spirit, so as to place us for our intended purpose within the Body. In the local aspect of the assembly and in the Universal aspect of the assembly. Therefore, when the Universal aspect of the Body is complete, then all of it's members will also be present within the Body and equipped to exercise their particular role.

Paul then associates this union, to being baptized in the Spirit. He directs them to recent past history, when the Jewish believers and Gentile believers were baptized. This baptism, associates believers with the intended gifts and purpose of the Spirit. Just as "water" baptism associates believers with Christ's death and resurrection. Likewise, the cloud and sea, associated Israel with Moses. These gifts and member placement are predetermined.

Today, this association with the one Spirit, begins at the New Birth. The predetermined gifts and member placement are applied. We become associated with the work of the Spirit in our lives. We are made to drink from this one Spirit. These gifts become active as we progress through our conversion experience. The gifts not only become active in our conversion but mature as we mature in Christ. It is vitally important, that we notice the Greek word - ἐποτίσθημεν - translated: "made to drink" or "given to drink". This phrase, has an irresistible sound to it and should make us think of the New Birth. This association with the Spirit, was alluded too in this verse and helps define it's meaning.

John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.

Christ was referring to the work of the Holy Spirit, who magnifies the work of Christ in the mind of the believer. We know that because our Lord said: "..If any man thirst...". There is no thirsting, if one has not experienced the Birth of the Spirit, (Regeneration). That Birth causes one to thirst, (Conversion), and his drink is from the one Spirit. That drink leads one to Jesus Christ and will continually magnify the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

I would agree, Baptism and made to drink are, two expressions of the same thing.

I went to the text. Can you tell me what verse the second word is in? I only see logizomai.

So that is why I said we are placed/baptized into Christ’s body in time

a. Drink of one Spirit, baptized into Christ’s body are synonomous.

b. We drink of the Spirit in time

c. Therefore we are baptized placed into the Body in time.