Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Umm, you take other verses, and I assumed we already finish those passages that bother you, and now, who is Christ here referring to??
Finished? Up to you- no verses "bother" me, I don't know why you would say that- what do you want to discuss?

I included verse 16 to demonstrate that those who see and hear spiritually, must first be given spiritual eyes
and ears that were blessed of God. So, it's not earthly human ears that permitted their hearing, but spiritual ones because
that they heard
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Hebrews 3:15 KJV: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Physical hearing, not spiritual hearing
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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rogerg said:
But only because of God's will that it be hardened, as the LORD had said. There was never a chance that it wouldn't be - so who really was the cause, God or pharaoh?

Seems to be a real need for some teaching here.

God does NOT cause sin, in any form. That would be blasphemous.

So, how did God harden Pharoah's heart? By allowing him to live longer so he himself could harden his own heart more.

iow, God gave him the opportunity to keep hardening his own heart.

Ex 9:16 - But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

So you see, God raised him up, knowing what he would do ON HIS OWN, and then kept him alive so that he could keep on hardening his own heart.

The idea that God causes people to reject Him is absurd. To the max.

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

To believe that God causes hardness of heart is to reject these 4 verses.
That's really, really, bad.

You try to make a point that in every sense, without saying so directly, that God is to be ignored in Exodus when that OT book he stated he hardened Pharaoh's heart.

When you blatantly deny that, thinking you can make a point otherwise, you're wrong.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You have a choice to harden your heart or not...So what gives, then?
It was a warning, not a choice. God warns sinners all of the time - His warnings provide one of the most important foundations
of the Bible. If, as you say, we have free will, and should we choose not to heed those warnings, it is of our responsibility, not
God's. Those who are born again will most definitely heed the warning. Those who don't will be judged accordingly because they have been so informed.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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It was a warning, not a choice. God warns sinners all of the time - His warnings provide one of the most important foundations
of the Bible. If, as you say, we have free will, and should we choose not to heed those warnings, it is of our responsibility, not
God's. Those who are born again will most definitely heed the warning. Those who don't will be judged accordingly because they have been so informed.
Okay...if someone doesn't have a choice then why warn them? That makes no sense to me.

Because we heed his warning and accept Him by faith in His Son, we will be born again...if someone doesn't heed the warning then they will not.

Those who don't will be judged accordingly because they have been so informed.
So whose choice was it not to heed his warning. Do you think God just sends out a fake warning to folks? Even though, he is not really going to allow them to heed his warning or obey Him? Now, that makes no sense at all to me.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Okay...if someone doesn't have a choice then why warn them? That makes no sense to me.

Because we heed his warning and accept Him by faith in His Son, we will be born again...if someone doesn't heed the warning then they will not.
A warning is given to warn. What someone chooses to do with that warning is their responsibility. Bad example but think about a speed limit sign. It doesn't force you to go any particular speed but lets you know what speed will cause a a violation. It just so happens
that those unsaved will never be concerned about the warning and will transgress it, nevertheless, they have been warned. If someone breaks a speed limit multiple times then they are sited multiple times.

We are NOT saved by our faith, we are saved by Christ's faithfulness to the Father. Our "accept(ing)" which if it is perceived the cause of our salvation, doesn't bring salvation. Christ is the Savior, we are not. I think I've asked you this before, but please explain
your understanding of a Savior
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Only those what have been born of and by the Holy Spirit, will dwell with the Lord in His Kingdom. And no one else.
"Not by Might, nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord"!

Zec_4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
I agree
but you have to be born again first

and no one is born again without looking to the cross in faith
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No one can truly look to, or see the cross UNTIL they are born again
The people of Israel had to look up at the serpent Moses hung. If they wanted to be saved.

Jesus said, as Moses hung the serpent. So must the son of man be hung so that WHOEVER BELIEVES.will not perish but have life.

Your putting the cart before the horse. You have people made alive IN SIN.

shame on you
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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No you have not.....You are not born-again from above, you are a self-willed after the flesh believer, who is still dead in your trespasses and sins.
Plain and simple.
More and more it appears they're purposed to abrogate the truth and lead those not well versed in the scriptures astray.

What's really odd in this discussion is when self-deceived Christians object to other Christian's pointing out God predestined their Salvation before the foundation of the world.

What?

When, per their counter argument, they insist God intended to Save everyone.
But everyone isn't Saved. The doctrine that teaches that is known as Universalism. Which is considered Heresy because it is unsupported by scripture.

Further, contextually speaking, Universalism,, doesn't fit with the identity of his Elect. Nor, the parables that reiterate (s)elect ones were predestined for Salvation.

And in Revelation itself. We read God wrote the names of the Elect/Saved in his Book of (Eternal) Life before the foundation of the world.

Offer still? Those self-identified Christian's who also insist God, the source,creator, Alpha and Omega=Beginning to the End, is not entirely in control, Sovereign, over everything he created and that functions according to his design.

It's like saying, the parable of the potter is nonsense. And means nothing. Because the clay is in control of its destiny.

In contemporary terms, it's like saying a watchmaker, once the watch is completely made, has abandoned all knowledge and control over the watch. Because the watch is autonomous by the watchmaker's design forever.

In order to make those allusions about our maker , one has to excise all scripture to the contrary.

And shockingly, ther are those here who self-identity as Christian and labor to do just that.

Amazingly similar to the arrogance of Lucifer. Seriously.

Their message post after post amounts to stating:
I believe in God but he's not Sovereign, he's not Preeminent in power and authority. He's not Omniscient, all scripture that has God telling readers he predestined, predetermined all things according to his will, power, authority, and for his own glory, are to be ignored. Or, abrogated to the point the original message within them is indistinguishable from their inventions against them, he's not Omnipotent, he's not Omnipresent. And he's not Omnigenesis.

That is the Luciferian nature at work. That which insists human will can operate separate and apart from anything of God.

When anyone insists Pharaoh hardened his own heart, not God, and when the OT verses tell us God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and told Moses of this before Moses set off to command the release of Egypt's Hebrew slaves in the name of I Am, that's Luciferian.
The adversarial spirit opposed to God's word and will.

Just like in Eden. When the serpent played on the words of warning, God's first commandment, in order to mislead Eve and lead her from the truth of God's will.

Frustrating? Can be. But then, if we take a breath and re-read such people we realize what we are encountering is a blessing. God, in his wisdom, reiterating in real time, the fact his message and lessons in scripture are timeless wisdom for his Elect.

We who have the eyes to read, the ears to hear, and the heart that is open to recognize the light being assailed by the ever failing darkness.


Even a Pharisee knew this.
Ephesians 1:11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,...

14. who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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A warning is given to warn. What someone chooses to do with that warning is their responsibility.
Exactly you said it all right there...What someone chooses to do with that warning is their responsibility.

If you want to use speeding as an example...fine....We have the choice to obey the speed limit... warning... or not. If for no other reason than we don't want to follow it so we break it...then we will suffer the consequences.

That is not the least bit perplexing. It's really simple if you ask me. The law is not forcing anyone to break the speed limit but will enforce the law on those who do not take heed and follow it.

Heed the warning or not....it's up to each person to make their own decision.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
More and more it appears they're purposed to abrogate the truth and lead those not well versed in the scriptures astray.

What's really odd in this discussion is when self-deceived Christians object to other Christian's pointing out God predestined their Salvation before the foundation of the world.

What?

When, per their counter argument, they insist God intended to Save everyone.
But everyone isn't Saved. The doctrine that teaches that is known as Universalism. Which is considered Heresy because it is unsupported by scripture.

Further, contextually speaking, Universalism,, doesn't fit with the identity of his Elect. Nor, the parables that reiterate (s)elect ones were predestined for Salvation.

And in Revelation itself. We read God wrote the names of the Elect/Saved in his Book of (Eternal) Life before the foundation of the world.

Offer still? Those self-identified Christian's who also insist God, the source,creator, Alpha and Omega=Beginning to the End, is not entirely in control, Sovereign, over everything he created and that functions according to his design.

It's like saying, the parable of the potter is nonsense. And means nothing. Because the clay is in control of its destiny.

In contemporary terms, it's like saying a watchmaker, once the watch is completely made, has abandoned all knowledge and control over the watch. Because the watch is autonomous by the watchmaker's design forever.

In order to make those allusions about our maker , one has to excise all scripture to the contrary.

And shockingly, ther are those here who self-identity as Christian and labor to do just that.

Amazingly similar to the arrogance of Lucifer. Seriously.

Their message post after post amounts to stating:
I believe in God but he's not Sovereign, he's not Preeminent in power and authority. He's not Omniscient, all scripture that has God telling readers he predestined, predetermined all things according to his will, power, authority, and for his own glory, are to be ignored. Or, abrogated to the point the original message within them is indistinguishable from their inventions against them, he's not Omnipotent, he's not Omnipresent. And he's not Omnigenesis.

That is the Luciferian nature at work. That which insists human will can operate separate and apart from anything of God.

When anyone insists Pharaoh hardened his own heart, not God, and when the OT verses tell us God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and told Moses of this before Moses set off to command the release of Egypt's Hebrew slaves in the name of I Am, that's Luciferian.
The adversarial spirit opposed to God's word and will.

Just like in Eden. When the serpent played on the words of warning, God's first commandment, in order to mislead Eve and lead her from the truth of God's will.

Frustrating? Can be. But then, if we take a breath and re-read such people we realize what we are encountering is a blessing. God, in his wisdom, reiterating in real time, the fact his message and lessons in scripture are timeless wisdom for his Elect.

We who have the eyes to read, the ears to hear, and the heart that is open to recognize the light being assailed by the ever failing darkness.


Even a Pharisee knew this.
Ephesians 1:11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,...

14. who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.
There You go again with your pride so deep you just can;t help yourself and you have to slander others.

We believe in predestination

Just not your perverted view of predestination.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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113
Finished? Up to you- no verses "bother" me, I don't know why you would say that- what do you want to discuss?

I included verse 16 to demonstrate that those who see and hear spiritually, must first be given spiritual eyes
and ears that were blessed of God. So, it's not earthly human ears that permitted their hearing, but spiritual ones because
that they heard
Actually, I see your pattern, it is you that takes me in another verse/s like a kangaroo is doing so I pretty assumed we're through with the particular verse/s. Are you saying v.16 of Matthe 13? Well. you are not actually looking, reading the whole Christ says everyone has the opportunity to hear v9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Yes, simply those who receive it will have it. Those who reject it will not have it. Every single truth can be heard as God is giving them the opportunity. It is belief or unbelief that makes the result of God's saving power Romans 1:16
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
Actually, I see your pattern, it is you that takes me in another verse/s like a kangaroo is doing so I pretty assumed we're through with the particular verse/s. Are you saying v.16 of Matthe 13? Well. you are not actually looking, reading the whole Christ says everyone has the opportunity to hear v9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Yes, simply those who receive it will have it. Those who reject it will not have it. Every single truth can be heard as God is giving them the opportunity. It is belief or unbelief that makes the result of God's saving power Romans 1:16
What's your profile pictures text say in full?
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Heed the warning or not....it's up to each person to make their own decision.
The question should be, who are they that will heed the warning, who won't, and why? The verse you used for our discussion does not address that. They are completely separate questions. Those who are spiritually blind and deaf are unable, for a variety of reasons, to truly "hear" His voice. Regardless of that, they who don't heed, in this case and in others, will still be held responsible for their decision.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The question should be, who are they that will heed the warning, who won't, and why? The verse you used for our discussion does not address that. They are completely separate questions. Those who are spiritually blind and deaf are unable, for a variety of reasons, to truly "hear" His voice. Regardless of that, they who don't heed, in this case and in others, will still be held responsible for their decision.
yeah

But In this case. God holds responsibility

Because he never gave them the opportunity to change.

Its like someone is drowning. And instead of helping them. You keep holding their head under water.

Then Blah them for drowning
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,068
426
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Actually, I see your pattern, it is you that takes me in another verse/s like a kangaroo is doing so I pretty assumed we're through with the particular verse/s. Are you saying v.16 of Matthe 13? Well. you are not actually looking, reading the whole Christ says everyone has the opportunity to hear v9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Yes, simply those who receive it will have it. Those who reject it will not have it. Every single truth can be heard as God is giving them the opportunity. It is belief or unbelief that makes the result of God's saving power Romans 1:16
I don't know what you're referring to? You are making an accusation without providing any facts about it. I am not a mind reader. So if
you have a criticism that you can substantiate, please post it, otherwise, you lose creditability