How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

Amillennialists are anathema.......there I said it.....
There is no way I'm going to cozy up to some people who hold the doctrine that Israel has been abandoned by God forever. What kind of God do they worship anyway? My God is dependable in His word, His trustworthiness is beyond reproach.

That is why so much of the early church was amil post trib.

They had no idea israel was still in the game.

Like i said

They need their own thread.

Amil is a nothing burger.

Waste of time talking to them

Pretrib rapture is the easiest doctrine to defend.

Like shooting ducks in a barrel.

You are so far off it is laughable.

Every single one of your posts starts with your highminded " i am from bible college"

As if to say " i am better than you"

Well anyone with the internet has access to tools past your limited "knowledge".

Way way way past your limited "knowledge"

Academic Excellence is from the fear of the Lord! duh! Not how much schooling we have either one of us.! I have read bible commentary that said the disciples where uneducated and they where taught by god himself!

So what you're saying is, that the "2W" are in fact NOT resurrected at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" at a time-slot DISTINCT FROM when you are saying the rest of the saints are resurrected "FIRST"?? (the way you interpret 20:5,6's "first [adjective]" to be meaning, "at THIS point is the FIRST TIME saints will have been "resurrected," at the END of the Trib" ... despite what Rev11:11 tells us about the "TWO Witnesses" ... which DT gave them [the "2W"] the "okay excuse" that God has a SPECIAL ASSIGNMENT for them... but most certainly NOT for the "ONE NEW MAN" / "ONE BODY" according to DT's viewpoint... . Lame.)




[in the 1Th4:16-17 CONTEXT, the adverb "first" is IN RELATION TO the next thing that occurs: the SNATCH ]

yeah phonetically what does this mean? n r-he ing o low-gos In mordern Greek? me Mostly with Steve Anderson the hate preacher.

Scripture cannot lie - Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30: 5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19

The recurring mistakes that you, CV5, Absolutely and others make are the following:

1.) establish a doctrine with no scriptural support = 'pre-trib rapture' = never spoken by God in His Word
2.) displace the Order of Scripture as spoken by the LORD ad the Apostles
3.) isolate a scripture to that is not foundational and make it as such, thus upsetting Scriptural Balance and Harmony
4.) commit willful sin in changing God's words such as declaring the "falling away" is pre-trib rapture and more

Each of you lack the necessary component of receiving understanding from the LORD = the fear of God

“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Consider also the following (particularly about the Rev12:5 reference to "caught up / harpazo [G726]"):


LIST of those who see the IDENTITY of "The Man Child" (Rev12) as being "the Church" -

Theodore Beza [b.1519]

Hanserd Knollys [b.1599]

Matthew Poole [b.1624]

Matthew Henry [b.1662]

John Wesley [1700s]

JN Darby [b.1800]

William Kelly [b.1820]

Charles Stanley [1800s]

Edward Dennett [b.1831]

WTP Wolston [b. 1840]

William E Blackstone [b. 1841]

William Biederwolf [b.1867]

HA Ironside [b.1876] - http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5721 [with caveats ]

Richard Chester [1882 - "Old Testament Light on New Testament Prophecy" - see quote below (next post)]

William L Pettingill [b.1886; in 1923]

Arthur Bloomfield [b.1895]

Dr Henry Morris [b.1918]

Chuck Missler [b.1934]

Barnes Notes on the Bible [Rev12:5]

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible [mentions this also; Rev12:5]

Dr Michael J Svigel [DTS; see quote below]

____________

Dr. Michael J Svigel’s argument (a version of this paper was first presented at the Southwest Regional Meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society, Friday, April 7, 2000) [quoting excerpt]:

[Svigel quoting Beale] "John may intentionally have the neuter pronominal adjective ἄρσεν (instead of the masculine) irregularly modify the masculine υἱὸν. As observed above in the textual comparisons of Revelation 12 and Isaiah 66, the unusual grammar reflects the actual wording of the Isaiah text, where both the mention of ‘male’ and the corporate plural of ‘son’ (or ‘child’) occur in synonymous phrases expressing Jerusalem bearing in travail. That John has not made a careless grammatical blunder is clear from 12.13, where the masculine τὸν ἄρσενα is correctly used. On the other hand, some do not see a grammatical incongruity in the use of ἄρσεν, but view it as a noun in apposition to ‘son’, further describing it. . . . But this still leaves unanswered the question why the neuter occurs in 12.5 [TDW note: BibleHub shows "arsen" as "neuter" in v.5] and the masculine in 12.13; in addition, the substantival use normally would be articular, as in 12.13." [97]

97 The reader is directed to the full discussion in G. K. Beale, John's Use of the Old Testament in Revelation, Journal for the Study of the New Testament Supplement Series 166, ed. Stanley E. Porter (Sheffield, England: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998), 341-343.


[Svigel] Thus, John’s use of “poor grammar” in Revelation 12:5 is intended to point the reader back to the images of Isaiah 66:7, which reads: “Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.” The next verse demonstrates that the woman and child are not intended to represent individuals, but rather assemblies: “Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons (two sons?).” The passage switches from the singular “son” to the plural “sons,” and describes the birth of “a land” and “a nation.” Therefore, given the symbolic parallels between the description of the woman of Revelation 12:1 and Israel of Genesis 37:9 as well as the intentional verbal allusion to Isaiah 66:7, where the woman is clearly the nation of Israel, “Zion,” the conclusion that best fits the evidence is that when the scene of Revelation 12 opens up, the woman primarily represents Israel of the Old Testament in travail. [98] [...]

98 Mounce, Revelation, 232; Swete, Revelation, 148.

[...]

To take the male child, then, as only an individual man, Jesus of Nazareth, would be to break consistency within the symbols of Revelation 12:1-7. It is acknowledged that such an inconsistency is certainly the prerogative of the author, but it fails to come to grips with the fact that John is not composing the passage ex nihilo (i.e., without a context), but (is) describing a vision we believe actually occurred. Thus, the elements of the vision could be mixed; that is, the woman and the dragon could symbolize corporate entities while the male child is an actual human being. However, an interpretation that understands the male child to be a corporate entity does not contradict the context of the passage; it does, in fact, better suits the context.

--Dr Michael J Svigel, https://bible.org/article/apocalypse-john-and-rapture-church-reevaluation

[end quoting]




[continued in next post for another's quote on this Subject]

Experts are just like us.I have seen very smart people make stupid mistakes because of pride.In fact i bet everyone on this post has done something dumb in their life time.

[continued from previous post... this being another person from that LIST in my Post #2269]


Anglican Rector of Midleton and Canon of Cloyne, [Richard] Chester wrote in his expansive 1882 work Old Testament Light on New Testament Prophecy:

"Now if the male Man-child of Rev. xii. is to be regarded as solely representing the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens, as some interpreters affirm; or as representing the visible Christian Church exalted into political power, as taught by others, it were not easy to establish any parallelism, or any correspondence whatsoever between Zech. iii. and Rev. xii. But if the Man-child represents, as is the belief of many students of prophecy, the entire body of “the dead in Christ” raised, and the living in Christ who shall be changed, and both together caught up to meet Him in the air—or if, as I have suggested in the article above referred to—he is to be rather regarded as a portion of the Jewish people—of 'the remnant according to the election of grace' incorporated by conversion to Christ into the Church of this dispensation—and thus 'brought forth'—'born again,'—and then, 'caught up to God and to His throne,' in the rapture of the risen and living saints of 1 Thess. iv.—then, in either of these cases, I submit that this vision of Zechariah iii. corresponds most accurately."


[Re: Zech 3... verse 8]

https://books.google.com/books?id=fQIFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA378&lpg=PA378&dq=Now+if+the+male+Man-child+of+Rev.+xii.+is+to+be+regarded+as+solely+representing+the+Lord&source=bl&ots=owRxMhivJt&sig=0s0ptCd15hwyN_yIp-Eyey2vejc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimtsvo-ITWAhVEyoMKHUIMBwwQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=Now if the male Man-child of Rev. xii. is to be regarded as solely representing the Lord&f=false

QFT!

DavidTree: neither can it tell the truth.All translation have mistakes in them.As long as we know the word is god and not a book.Jesus even says their is only one teacher is it the written word?,,no it's god himself

QFT - Urban Dictionary
https://www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=QFT
QFT = Quoted For the Truth. Because i was not sure what of it's meaning.

Your statement is another false assumption.


Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Jeremiah, what do you see?”
And I said, “I see a branch of an almond tree.”
12Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am ready to perform My word.

Just as the LORD prepared a body for Himself, entered in a virgins womb and brought forth His WORD, so also does HE accomplish that which HE speaks forth:

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Jesus had to teach a bunch of uneducated (but reverent and believing) hayseeds from Galilee HIMSELF because the "right schools" were so entrenched in their stupidity blindness and apostasy.

From what I understand seminaries today are likewise a mess.

Just as many people have been hurt by the bible as in lighten by it.I think your missing something David i'm not sure what it might be.,, David in Hebrew it's a watch tree for i will watch over my word to make sure it's done.

and you just missed the message

simple form = God knows - we don't and won't unless we abide under HIM and with HIM

pre-trib, a lie, leading those who follow, will never see until it is upon them

The LORD says to each of us
The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
10I, the LORD, search the heart;
I examine the mind
to reward a man according to his way,
by what his deeds deserve.

No one gets out alive unless they abide
Your sinful heart does lie
with 'pre-trib' which God denies
He will give you your dessert
because you modify His Alert
pre-trib will cause many to hurt

David i know that's what the good book says "call nothing good"But it's pride that's deceitful above all things.The heart knows it's own bitterness.Many that walk with god on earth had trouble with understanding, him. Like, was it Simon the zealot?Was he one that wanted Jesus as a earthly king?

i am glad you pointed that out - All the Disciples wanted the LORD to be declared King of Israel before He went to the cross.

After His resurrection - they wanted Him to be crowned King = even more then before

Same with those who follow pre-trib = they are looking for something that does not exist in Scripture and want earthly Israel to have her King = SAME as the lost Jews today who believe they can usher in the Messiah with mitzvah's = their own righteousness.

What does our LORD say to them? = THIS:

So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8

Submit unto God, resist the devil and he will flee from you.