How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

And that's my point. The GT had to have once been longer than 3.5 years for it to be shortened down to the most recent length told by Revelation 13 to be 3.5 years. I find that it could have originally been 7 years to make sense with God deciding to change it to make sure some saints would survive.

What this means is the GT originally was longer than 3.5 years and no flesh of the saints were intended to survive. God decided to change those things and make it shorter and allow some to survive. This proves prophecy can be changed if God wants a new outcome.

They are letting you get off of calling folks ...liar...on this forum.....but, I would strongly advise against calling God a liar.

Dancing and prancing around scripture will only make you go in circles.

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death.

Not only that but since the Apostle Paul understood OT Prophecy, he wrote these words to Thessolinica:

So when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left on our own in Athens.
2We sent Timothy, our brother and fellow worker for God in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,
3so that none of you would be shaken by these trials. For you know that we are destined for this.
4Indeed, when we were with you, we kept warning you that we would suffer persecution;

and as you know, it has come to pass.

5For this reason, when I could bear it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter had somehow tempted you and caused our labor to be in vain.

Which brings us to chapter 4 where the Apostle FIRMLY & FOREVER gives the exact ORDER of the Coming of the LORD.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain
until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who have died/fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

No pre-trib rapture for anyone = PERIOD

Resurrection FIRST at His Coming = exactly what our LORD says in the Gospels and in Revelation

SEE here: Revelation 6:9-11

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer,
until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

No one will understand Revelation if you "add to and take away" from God's words with pre-trib or any other falsehood.

They are letting you get off of calling folks ...liar...on this forum.....but, I would strongly advise against calling God a liar.

YOu seem always to look for "clear verses." Often God does not provide clear verses. The 7 years is there, but it is not at first obvious.
The truth is, God "marked" the 70th week with 7's so we can easily find it.

I didn't think of Revelation 6:9-11, it seems to fit well with 1 Thess. 4:17 and Matt. 24:22. I think this because it says "the full number of," meaning there is an unspecified number fellow servants (their brothers) that will be killed. To me this suggests that not all of their brothers will be killed, but only a "number of" (a fraction of) the total amount brothers available in a set.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled .

There is no amount listed in the passage.

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death. NON SEQUITUR This fact has nothing to do with the 70th week. Did you not read "in this world we will have tribulation?" God added up 2000 years of tribulation in chapter 7 and called it "mega..."

The first verse is "a [beginning/starting] reference point" for the discussion. The second verse indicates the 'purpose' of the discussion. The third verse transitions to the 'focus' of the discussion - which is the "falling away" and the man of sin.

Why would you think there would be any? They would have all been raptured...

I think you need more study...

The 'Wrath of God' is the vials.

With careful study, you should discover that the sun/moon/stars part of Matthew 24:29 - that is 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days" - aligns with the Trumpet Events and the Two Witnesses (who cause those things to come about).

The Trumpet Events are post-trib and pre-wrath.

Beyond the first sentence, there is very little truth...

YOu seem always to look for "clear verses." Often God does not provide clear verses. The 7 years is there, but it is not at first obvious.
The truth is, God "marked" the 70th week with 7's so we can easily find it.

The word "apostasia" was also used in phrases saying:

--the "departure" of a fever

--the "departure" of a boat from a dock


(i.e. "spatial / geographical" departures).




Again, it is the CONTEXT that determines just "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant, in any given text.



(and in 2Th2:3 it is "THE departure"--a definite [/particular] one [...and note again what had been posted about the functions of the definite article "the"])

Keep in mind he thinks the falling away is the rapture and that Strong of the Strong's concordance "fibbed" or lied when he said the word apostasia means defection from the truth. I wonder if he thinks every Greek dictionary and concordance were also fibbing? It's a conspiracy against pre-trib!

Thayers:
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88


I wonder if Abbott-Smith, Liddell and Scott, and Winer's Grammar are also fibbing??




Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God , apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .





Winer's Grammar:



Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

The LORD and the Apostles all said = DEPARTURE from Truth/Faith

REPENT from twisting God's words as the Serpent did in the Garden.

Read the last verse (28) of Hebrews 9

The LORD, and the Apostle John and again Paul all agree and say the exact same thing, falling away/departure from truth, and yet they refuse to accept and embrace their words = amazing.

A definition of a compound word should never veer too far from the meaning of the words that make up the compound word.
For example, a snowball. It is a ball, made of snow. A mailbox is a box used for mail. A railroad is a road made of rails. a paradigm is bringing two things up in parallel with each other to display or show them: perhaps to show the differences or the similarities. However, meanings of words change over time. Now paradigm is used, to show a shift or change in things. The parallel part of it is dimishing.

Always remember, apostasia is such a compound word and could CERTAINLY be used as Paul used it, keeping the meaning of each of the words. Have you looked up Strong's for apo? For Stasia?

1. of separation…
1A. of local separation,
1B. of separation of a part from the whole

1Bi. where of a whole some part is taken
1C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another…
1D. of a state of separation, that is of distance
1Di. physical, of distance of place

I did not write this, Mr. Strong wrote it. We get our word "stationary" from the greek Stasia." It means not moving. Notice 1D: a state of separation. A very siimilar Greek word was used for divorce, where there was separate: a part of a whole (2 people) departing and going somewhere else.

Have any of you guys translated an entire bible or entire New Testament? These guys did:

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

Perhaps these guys copied from the first one - perhaps not. Without much doubt, MANY have copied the idea of a falling away from the King James.

When there is a choice of meanings in Greek, translators try to find the best meaning to fit the CONTEXT. Some do better than others.

The bigger question is, can a falling away equate with "taken out of the way?" Or, as some demand: "gone from the midst." To understand Paul's use of apostasia, one must also understand who or what the restraining power is. I find very little agreement on the restrainer. Yet, Paul wrote, "and now you know..." what is restraining.

Hebrews 9:28 so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

Repent from the lie of pre-trib.

In everyplace in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation:

#1 - the Word of God
#2 - disobedience to the Word - satan/sin
#3 - Grace to believe the Word to those whom God calls
#4 - TRIBULATION
#5 - Grace to ENDURE
#6 - Pronouncement of Judgment upon the ungodly/world
#7 - Salvation - Deliverance from God's wrath