Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

You don't understand any of your 4 points. John put a title on a resurrection and you imagine it is a one time event, when in truth it covers Jesus' resurrection as the firstfruits, and then all the other resurrections of the righteous over time. For example, there is a time for the resurrection of those "In Christ." There is yet another resurrection for the Two Witnesses. There is one for the Beheaded, and one for the Old Testament saints. You lump them all together ignoring other scriptures that show us they are separate. You imagine Jesus' resurrection must be something different because His resurrection does not fit your theory.

You are mistaken on 1 Cor. 15:23, that states that resurrection is for those born again, which agrees with 1 Thes. 4: those "in Christ." Since that does not fit your theory, you have to have all the Old Testament saints "in Christ" when that is impossible.

The second Advent, but its very title is speaking of the SECOND time He will come, but you ignore that He comes the second time ONLY TO THE AIR. Since that don't fit your theory, you ad lib his coming all the way to the ground, forcing two comings into one. The truth is, His second coming is only to the air. From there He will take us to the homes he has prepared, EXACTLY as a groom would take his bride in Jesus' day. How amazing then that after that comes a marriage and a marriage supper in heaven. But since what is written (these events take place in heaven) does not fit your theory, you either ignore them or MOVE them to earth.

Finally, the "first" resurrection is first in HONOR, not in timing. John did not write in English.

So amazing! 76 pages and over 1500 posts and no one has changed their mind. It is a waste of time.

No, that would be you who doesn't understand. I have verses included that SAY what the point is.

But, go ahead and try to refute my points by exegeting the verses to show they DON'T mean what they say. Or that they mean something totally different.

lol. There is NOT ANY verse that says that resurrecrtions are over time. That's just your own OPINION. Which I'm not interested in.

I gave 4 verses that PROVE there is only 1 resurrection of the saved and they are unambiguous.

I challenge you to quote that verse. Oh, right. There isn't one. 1 Cor 15:23 says "those who belong to Him". I've already shared the verses that blow your theory out of the water. Do you ever read my posts?

Act 15:16-17
16 “ ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ —

Go ahead and try to tell me that "all the Gentiles who bear My name" can't be included in the phrase "those who belong to Him".

Rom 10:18-20
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”

So don't tell me "those who belong to Him" doesn't include believers from Adam on.

Only a fool would try to make that argument. Paul NEVER talked about a resurrection that was just for those "in Christ".

Only if you can prove these witnesses were given resurrection bodies. Which you can't, of course.

Further, the FIRST resurrection is at the end of the Trib. So says Rev 20:5. So you can't be right.

Where is Scripture for the OT saints? I don't believe you. The one for the beheaded is the FIRST resurrection, and that doesn't mean the first one of the several beheaded ones. That would be quite stupid.

What a joke. I've shown the verses that clearly indicate there is ONLY ONE. It's the Bible that "lumps them all together".\

How can I "ignore other Scriptures that show us that they are separate" when you HAVEN'T SHOWN me ANY verses that shows separate resurrections?

Again, a very wrong conclusion, as usual.

The reason Paul described Jesus' resurrection separately and called it "firstfruits" is because of:

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

If you are able to comprehend language, you will KNOW that Jesus' resurrection is the FIRST one, separated by the description "firstfruits".

Do you understand what this means? It means Lazarus, the widow's son and all the others that Jesus raised from the dead while He was on earth BEFORE His own resurrection did NOT receive resurrection bodies. This is also true of the 2 witnesses, because the Bible does NOT SAY they received glorified bodies. Good luck trying to prove they did.

Go ahead and argue against Scripture all you want. That's not by business. But the verses are clear enough that you have NO EXCUSE for your rebellion and rejection of God's Word

No kidding!

You haven't proved that. Please stop sharing your unsubstantiated opinions. When you make a claim, please provide verses that say what you opine.

You've NEVER shown from Scripture that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven, so I reject that as just your unsubstantiated opinion.

Only IF you ever find a verse that shows Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven will I believe it. But I know that the Bible doesn't teach that.

No proof, no evidence. Only your unsubstantiated opinion. Which I reject.

Once again, Jesus told that to His disciples, BEFORE He died and went to heaven. He was assurring them that they had a place prepared for them when they died. And where do you think those 11 disciples have been living in heaven for the past 2,000+ years?????

I've researched the Greek word, and it INCLUDES timing. So you are wrong on ALL points.

Those with the truth don't need to. Those with unsubstantiated opinions are rebellious against the truth.

You THINK you know, so go ahead and get left behind. As I said, we can compare notes during the Millennial Reign.
I am going to enjoy heaven during the 70th week, praying to be found worthy to escape what is coming.

Since your faith is to go through "all these things" that God's escape plan takes the Bride out of, I believe God will honor your faith and you will certainly be left behind to live through God's wrath on earth - or lose your head on the way. You seem to imagine it is GOD'S PLAN for the Bride (each member or most) to lost their head. Is this your opinion of the God we serve? I guess you ignore the two verses that show the saints will be overcome. Are you going to be in the majority that will be overcome? Are you planning on that?

I hope you like heat! God is going to crank up the power of the sun and scorch people - saint and sinner alike. No on will be exempt from the heat. There will be no fit water to drink for it will all be turned into blood. Of course the stores will have water, but that will require the mark. I hope you enjoy being very thirsty. This is just two parts to "all these things." There will be many more. I think I understand: there IS an escape, but you don't want anything to do with God's escape plan.

I really hope your belief system works for you.

Just so you know, it is NOT "when they died..." Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself..." It is talking about His coming.

When the shoe fits....

op: Pre-trib rapture causes FEAR?
I believe those who criticize God's Great GRACE Departure are AFRAID of losing their "martyrs crown." But WHAT IF "they endure to the end" and are not martyred, then what? No crown anyway, huh?

I'm not sure about anyone else, but The Words Of God's Great GRACE Departure
Has Certainly Brought me COMFORT! (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) Amen?:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

to be continued...

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

Part II

God's Prophetic Program, and second earthly coming

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

What a ridiculous statement. ALL believers receive their resurrection bodies at the same event. Whether you know that or not.

I'm not going to miss a thing.

Nothing to compare. Your notes are false teaching.

Sure. If you die before the Trib begins.

Seems you just love to make ridiculous claims. My faith is to believe God's very clear Word.

So you DO acknowledge that there will be believers during the Trib. How bout that!

But it seems you don't think God is powerful enough to keep His people from His wrath.

You don't know what you are talking about.

What I know is that yours doesn't.

See? You really DON'T understand the clear language.

When Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, He will "come again, and receive everyone to Himself". Of course He will.

What neither John 14:1-3 or any other verse says is that Jesus will be taking any raptured believer to heaven.

And that's a fact.

FreeGrace2 said:
Those with the truth don't need to. Those with unsubstantiated opinions are rebellious against the truth.
Absolutely applies to you.

Yes it sort of is. Part of what I feel my mission is here is basically presenting the word of God. I see it as "challenging what I see is error", and bringing forth what the word of God is really saying. I do so more for the reader, than for the ones that are posting. I like to put myself in my opponent shoes. That way I am making sure I am on the right track. The only thing I will not address is preterism or historicist View. That to me is the true waste of time as history itself testifies against the historicist.
I check everything out.

You haven't done that. Your primary thrust is teaching that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Yet, you have NEVER found any verse that indicates this.

...even though we have.....whatever....just believe what you will

Btw
Where were the 5 wise virgins taken?
The ones gathered by Jesus on a cloud. In rev 14
Where were they taken?

The one taken/ one left mat 24....where were they taken?

Those gathered at 1 thes 4....where were they taken????

Someone has put me down for "bad spelling"! Imagine! So should we take the hyphen out of "fear-mongerer"? Or should we focus on the fearmongering which is leading to huge numbers of suicides? Straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

""""So you DO acknowledge that there will be believers during the Trib. How bout that!"""
Ever wonder what happens to them?
They die.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
He kills them

Revelation 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:16


You got plans for that trib???

It says ALL take the mark or die.

You have not. I've asked repeatedly for a verse that plainly and unambiguously describes Jesus taking raptured people to heaven, the very essence of your pretrib theory. And you know very well you don't have any such verse.

Stop acting as if you have a verse.

FreeGrace2 said:
You haven't done that. Your primary thrust is teaching that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Yet, you have NEVER found any verse that indicates this.
Why do you think this parable has any relevance to your theory about Jesus taking raptured people to heaven? It doesn't. But we all know you have nothing else.

How about just actually quoting a verse from ch 14 that supports your claim.

Please provide a verse in ch 14 and I'll tell you.

To meet Jesus in the air. These the are FEW left alive and who remain. They will be gathered and given resurrected bodies. And then, just like the trib martyrs, they will stay with Jesus as He sets up His Kingdom and serve Him.

Got some news for you. All the passage says is this:

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This parallels John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Any more questions? You haven't asked a tough one yet.

Here is my question: where is the verse that clearly shows Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

And don't bring in the Flood.

""""But it seems you don't think God is powerful enough to keep His people from His wrath."""

He does by taking them out.
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Mat 2
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Yep God removed noah, lot, and Jesus.
The church will be also.

Solid bible

Did God remove the Jews from Egypt when He blasted the Egyptians with the 10 plagues? No. They stayed RIGHT WHERE THEY WERE.

OK, finally you provide some "context" with which to comment.

v.26: prove that the "days of the Son of man" means the Trib or just before the Trib. I would say the "days of the some of man" would be way more likely the Millennial reign. Recall that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Gonna be very strict. And by the end, yes, and He will "destroy them all".
v.29: same as v.26, a reference to the end of the Millennium. Where all unbelievers are destroyed.
v.30: an OBVIOUS reference to the Second Coming. Not a day before that. Because that is when Jesus wil be revealed.
v.34,35,36: an obvious reference to the gathering.

Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably.

Lot also wasn't "removed" from the earth. He was just relocated to an adjacent piece of real estate.

what about Jesus? What are you trying to refer to?

By the time the Trib rolls around, the VAST MAJORITY of the church will ALREADY be in heaven. And you CANNOT find any verse that supports your presumption that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.

Yes, my explanation sure is. Your examples of Noah, Lot and Jesus failed terribly.