Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

I prefer to think of it as a simple yet clear illustration of how a Soul comes into existence and why it goes out of existence...a Soul can no longer exist once the Spirit returns to God and the Body to dust any more than light can continue to shine once the current is removed from the bulb.

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

To my knowledge no one here teaches an "Immortal Soul" . That was a strawman argument created by Unitarians.

" But it was suppressed by the government in 1658, and the followers of Socinus, after protracted persecution, were likewise expelled from Poland. Socinus came to be opposed by Catholics and Protestants alike because of his attacks on orthodox teachings. He maintained that DO doctrine, even though founded on the Bible, was forced to withdraw from Cracow, where He had strongly influenced the theology of the developing Polish Unitarian Church, unifying and organizing the budding movement. In 1562 he wrote a treatise on John's Gospel, denying the essential deity of Christ. And in 1563 he denied the natural immortality of the soul. "
https://www.truthaccordingtoscriptu.../froom/luther-conditionalism.php#.YfE6RtXMLhc

A SOUL SERMON FOR UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISTS

The Unitarian Universalist Church of the Palouse

See also On the Nature of the Soul

April 5, 2009
https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/SoulSermon.htm

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org › magazine › article
Most Unitarians denied the natural immortality of the soul and eternal punishment, ... unity and do not have an immortal soul that exists after death.

If a Soul is not dead, it is alive, and if it is alive, it's not dead.

The Second Death of a Soul is not that Soul alive in torment - it is dead. Am I correct in saying that you guys beleive, "well, yes, the Soul does in fact die...but not surely. It's still "alive" or "undead" or "zombiefied" in hell burning throughout all eternity"?

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

LOL One thing I'm sure of is that God is not into fanaticism. My church doesn't have any rule about what is or not Sabbath appropriate except to say, "Whatever tends or does not tend to draw us closer to God and each other". So, sticking a casserole in the oven to heat it up for a Sabbath fellowship meal is perfectly acceptable but regular comm work is off limits. We were at breakfast yesterday talking and laughing and I said, "Hey guys, it's Friday so I gotta make sure to finish XYZ by 4:00" and one said, "Oh yeah, Cinderella, I forgot, if you ain't gone by sunset you turn into a pumpkin". I said something about how I couldn't figure out how they managed to cram so much "gay" into one dude and we all laughed.

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

Diakonos said:

Yes, that's why God refers to the First Death as "sleep"...because "As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive". By virtue of Christ's saving mission, humanity may "awake" to the Judgment and arise from their graves, some to everlasting life, but others to condemnation and the Second Death, the permanent, everlasting death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

Duckybill said:

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning with "everlasting fire"?

Pretty sure their under the Dead Sea not on fire...but didn't they suffer the "vengeance of everlasting fire"?

So, can "everlasting fire" refer to the RESULT, and not the process concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? Of course that is the only way of looking at it that makes sense: the city was burned up and is no longer on fire.

Can we also look the same way at the reward of the wicked?

Runningman · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

You got to be kidding me. You think those are about physical death and ruin? Of course you are completely wrong.

Runningman · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Journeyman · Jan 29, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

I agree with you. Another problem is that people think the term "forever" always means "eternal", or "without end",
We often use the word forever with respect to our total life in this world. The Bible does also.

If people would consider that being tormented forever pertains to suffering for the sins committed during a sinners existence in this world (or "forever"), and quietly listen to the Spirit of Christ in them, they would know for sure that God doesn't allow eternal suffering. Not even for the devil.

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

ChristianTonyB said:

I don't see the point of your argument. Whether we define the Lord's teaching here as being delivered through the use of a parable, a metaphor, an illustration, or whatever, the Lord's message to us is straight forward. The simple reality is, that Jesus is giving us a warning... if we choose to live our life in an opulent and haughty manner here on earth, being inconsiderate of God and His grace, and die in that condition, then we can expect to pay for that immediately after we die. If you have ever felt thirsty, hungry, fearful, depressed, despairing, friendless, isolated, and the like here on earth, then roll all those feelings together and add the fact that there will be no relief for you until you 'have paid back every penny' (... a metaphor) to God that He deems you owe Him, that's what your experience in Hell will be like, with no escape possible.

If the passage were literal, you'd probably be right.

We can't say we're theologically consistent Christians but then demand two diametrically opposed Biblical views on death are both true.

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

I
Hi Brother, If it is a parable where is the explanation to the disciples?

Luke 16:19-17:22
Easy-to-Read Version
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 Jesus said, “There was a rich man who always dressed in the finest clothes. He was so rich that he was able to enjoy all the best things every day. 20 There was also a very poor man named Lazarus. Lazarus’ body was covered with sores. He was often put by the rich man’s gate. 21 Lazarus wanted only to eat the scraps of food left on the floor under the rich man’s table. And the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “Later, Lazarus died. The angels took him and placed him in the arms of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 He was sent to the place of death[a] and was in great pain. He saw Abraham far away with Lazarus in his arms. 24 He called, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to me so that he can dip his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am suffering in this fire!’

25 “But Abraham said, ‘My child, remember when you lived? You had all the good things in life. But Lazarus had nothing but problems. Now he is comforted here, and you are suffering. 26 Also, there is a big pit between you and us. No one can cross over to help you, and no one can come here from there.’

27 “The rich man said, ‘Then please, father Abraham, send Lazarus to my father’s house on earth. 28 I have five brothers. He could warn my brothers so that they will not come to this place of pain.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have the Law of Moses and the writings of the prophets to read; let them learn from that.’

30 “The rich man said, ‘No, father Abraham! But if someone came to them from the dead, then they would decide to change their lives.’

31 “But Abraham said to him, ‘If your brothers won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen to someone who comes back from the dead.’”

Sin and Forgiveness
17 Jesus said to his followers, “Things will surely happen that will make people sin. But it will be very bad for anyone who makes this happen. 2 It will be very bad for anyone who makes one of these little children sin. It would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be drowned in the sea. 3 So be careful!

“If your brother or sister in God’s family does something wrong, warn them. If they are sorry for what they did, forgive them. 4 Even if they do something wrong to you seven times in one day, but they say they are sorry each time, you should forgive them.”

How Big Is Your Faith?
5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Give us more faith!”

6 The Lord said, “If your faith is as big as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Dig yourself up and plant yourself in the ocean!’ And the tree will obey you.

Be Good Servants
7 “Suppose one of you has a servant who has been working in the field, plowing or caring for the sheep. When he comes in from work, what would you say to him? Would you say, ‘Come in, sit down and eat’? 8 Of course not! You would say to your servant, ‘Prepare something for me to eat. Then get ready and serve me. When I finish eating and drinking, then you can eat.’ 9 The servant should not get any special thanks for doing his job. He is only doing what his master told him to do. 10 It is the same with you. When you finish doing all that you are told to do, you should say, ‘We are not worthy of any special thanks. We have only done the work we should do.’”

Be Thankful
11 Jesus was traveling to Jerusalem. He went from Galilee to Samaria. 12 He came into a small town, and ten men met him there. They did not come close to him, because they all had leprosy. 13 But the men shouted, “Jesus! Master! Please help us!”

14 When Jesus saw the men, he said, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.”

While the ten men were going to the priests, they were healed. 15 When one of them saw that he was healed, he went back to Jesus. He praised God loudly. 16 He bowed down at Jesus’ feet and thanked him. (He was a Samaritan.) 17 Jesus said, “Ten men were healed; where are the other nine? 18 This man is not even one of our people. Is he the only one who came back to give praise to God?” 19 Then Jesus said to the man, “Stand up! You can go. You were healed because you believed.”

The Coming of God’s Kingdom
20 Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will God’s kingdom come?”

Jesus answered, “God’s kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you can see it. 21 People will not say, ‘Look, God’s kingdom is here!’ or ‘There it is!’ No, God’s kingdom is here with you.[c]”

22 Then Jesus said to his followers, “The time will come when you will want very much to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not be able to.

The interpretation of the parable is found in Matthew 15:21-28 KJV.

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

Journeyman said:

Forever: (Gr. "aionios") -- "duration, either undefiend but NOT endless, or undefined because endless".

"...and never shalt thou (Satan) be anymore." - Ezekiel 28:19 KJV

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

You might not be aware that Christians everywhere - except in Alexandria, the capital of Satanic occultism, and at Rome - kept the seventh day Sabbath well into the 5th century, but as the power of the Papacy spread, wherever her tentacles reached out, Sabbath was done away with and Sunday was set up. Sabbath keeping was kept alive for centuries afterward, including Coptic Christians.

It's a misnomer to say Sabbath was replaced Biblically with Sunday. That's why Rome makes it her business to mock Christians who argue that Sunday keeping is Biblical, because they know full well Sunday keeping entered into Christianity via the Papacy.

Phoneman-777 · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

The reason they were excluded from the KJV is becuase they were found to be uninspired. ICYMI, an excerpt from the Apocrypha says that giving alms can earn salvation, which strikes at the core of the Gospel, does it not? Anyone can see how uninspired that is.

Amanuensis · Jan 29, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

Your opinion that the OT does not teach about torment waiting for the wicked dead has already been proven wrong. And also the lesson of the parable itself teaches that the OT does warn of torment awaiting the wicked dead.

Your decision to use verses that are from men who were expressing their opinions about the dead and trying to push it on ignorant people to hammer them into submission does not work for the well read. We happened to agree with the parable that Moses and the Prophets do warn about torment awaiting the wicked dead. You reject those verses and chose the ones that by taken out of context fit your erroneous teachings.

But I have another parable for you:

There were two Christians, one believed that there was a place of torment that waited for the wicked dead and included it in his preaching and the other told people that the wicked would not know anything when they died.

They both died and went to heaven and then the one found out that he was wrong and there was a place of torment for the wicked dead.

Then he said, Oh Lord, I was wrong, please send that someone back to warn my friends that there really is a place of torment for the wicked dead.

And he was told, "They have the scriptures. If they do not believe what the scriptures say about the place of torment that awaits the wicked dead, then they will not believe even if one goes to them from the dead and warns them about the place of torment awaiting the wicked dead"

End of parable.

Duckybill · Jan 29, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning with "everlasting fire"?

Pretty sure their under the Dead Sea not on fire...but didn't they suffer the "vengeance of everlasting fire"?

So, can "everlasting fire" refer to the RESULT, and not the process concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? Of course that is the only way of looking at it that makes sense: the city was burned up and is no longer on fire.

Can we also look the same way at the reward of the wicked?

You're playing word games to avoid the Scriptures.

Amanuensis · Jan 29, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

So, in other words, you are saying we must accept it as a parable, and then interpret it as allegorical? Ok, weird approach and unique to only you on planet earth, but going with that strange approach you have told us what the allegorical meaning of several things are but you have yet to explain your idea of what the allegorical meaning of the torment could be?

Saying it is not to be taken literally, then giving allegorical meanings to the characters such as the rich man an lazarus, but not continuing with an allegorical explanation for the torments is neither the way a parable, or an allegory would work.

So now, you've insisted on calling it a parable, but start to interpret it as an allegory, and then quit in the middle and think people are supposed to see it the way you do? No one who is intellectually honest can violate that many rules of literature. It's just raw unadulterated ignorance about parables and allegories and I don't care how smart you think your leaders were they are making a fool out of you if you are following their lead in explaining this parable as and allegory and quitting before you assign a meaning to the torments. No one can agree with this nonsense.

Amanuensis · Jan 29, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Indeed those sodomites are still burning in hell. In torment in fires that are not the same as the fire that took them out of this world but are called fire, flame, to communicate to our understanding a torment that is real and that we can relate to. Everything in that other world has to be explained in earthly references or we would have no idea what it was.

They are everlasting. That is the whole point of that first. And to warn those who sin like this today what is waiting for them.

The sodomites of today can expect to suffer the punishment of eternal fire not eternal sleep.

We should be preaching this boldly today. EVERLASTING FIRE will be the punishment of all sodomites unless they repent and turn from their wickedness.

This happened to prove to all people that God will judge such sin. When people think that there is no judgment coming other than just sleeping forever this scripture is another one that should be used to warn them that their is a place of torment that awaits the wicked dead.

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Duckybill · Jan 29, 2022

Runningman said:

"Everlasting destruction", a process that NEVER ends.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NKJV)
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

LactoseIntolerant · Jan 29, 2022

TheLearner said:

Not sure what you are saying. You are using the primitive meaning (secret knowledge) to substantiate your claim of hell. I am using standard definitions as used by New Testament Scholars.

Some references I am quoting secondhand. The initial post of "usage" is from biblehub Strong's Concordance.

Mystery
https://biblehub.com/library/easton/eastons_bible_dictionary/letter_m.htm
The calling of the Gentiles into the Christian Church, so designated (Eph.1:9, 10; 3:8-11; Col.1:25-27);
a truth undiscoverable except by revelation, long hid, now made manifest. (1)
The resurrection of the dead (1 Cor.15:51), and other doctrines which need to be explained but which cannot be fully understood by finite intelligence (Matt.13:11; Rom.11:25; 1 Cor.13:2);
the union between Christ and his people symbolized by the marriage union (Eph.5:31, 32; comp.6:19);
the seven stars and the seven candlesticks (Rev.1:20);
and the woman clothed in scarlet (17:7), are also in this sense mysteries.
The anti-Christian power working in his day is called by the apostle (2 Thess.2:7) the "mystery of iniquity."
(1) No versal quote, I suspect this this is your initiate revelation

I haven't got my hands on these references,
[9}. James Strong, The New Strong’s Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words (Thomas Nelson Publisher, Nashville, TN, 2001), p. 1247.
Musterion: In the New Testament it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the English Word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God. [9]

[10]. Howard Marshall, editor, New Bible Dictionary (Intervarsity Press, Downers Grove, IL, 1997), p. 795. Some sources use the English “Y” to translate the Greek letter upsilon. Thus some sources have musterion, while others have mysterion.
But whereas “mystery” may mean, and in contemporary usage often does mean, a secret for which no answer can be found, this is not the connotation of the term mysterion in classical and biblical Greek. In the New Testament, mysterion signifies a secret which is being, or even has been, revealed, which is also divine in scope, and needs to be made known by God to men through his Spirit. [10]

As to playing nice, not sure what you mean. Praising Jesus as one is tortured? If it was an atheist spitting out such venom, my words would have gotten much more impolite. What is good for the atheist is good for the christian. This is not a hellmonger's safe space. If the westboro popped their head here, should you not also rebuke them bluntly?

LactoseIntolerant · Jan 29, 2022

Duckybill said:

I am calling you a hellmonger because you peddle the false doctrine of hell. You embellish and proclaim your self-righteousness while eviscerating the commandment 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' all the while praising Jesus. Are you a sarcastic atheist mocking the Scriptures?

Duckybill said:

I call a duck what walks and talk like a duck. Praising Jesus for the eternal torture of a man. What is the difference between a hateful atheist and westboro baptist heretic. If I did call you a fool, you would certainly know it. There would be more vitriol and anger. This is not a hellmongering safe space. I will be blunt as I can as you deem it necessary to teach those who drink milk.

Duckybill said:

Your point of contention is that this is not a parable. Would not Jesus, mandated as a Prophet, be required to speak plainly. So why this mystery of the torment period. Why as quoted per your fellow hellmonger, the mysteries (verses with musterion G3466) did not contain questions of hell? Is your hell a purgatory or a full fledge torture chamber for eternity?

Duckybill said:

Exactly. From the mandate of John the Baptist. Same events 4 perspectives. Your eternal hell fire is from "the Unquenchable Fire that burnt the chaff" as elucidated by Luke and Matthew. Not by Mark and John. It was an affectation of speech.

All things eternal come from God. The eternal fire is death. abaddon,

synoptics - (a) and (b) are to be aligned.
Luke3:15And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; 16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose(a): he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire(b): 17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Matt 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear(a): he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire(b): 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 1:4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down(a) and unloose. 8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost(b).

John 1:24And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose (a). 28These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost(b). 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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