The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

What you lack is any biblical evidence for your views.


What you lack is any biblical evidene for your views.

This is way way over your head buddy.

The obvious has been stated endless numbers of times.

And you haven't picked up on any of it? Tragic.

NO MORE FLESH MEN OR WOMEN UPON THE EARTH LEFT ALIVE.

EXCEPT FOR THE ALIVE AND REMAINING WHO 'ARE CHANGED'

NOT BECAUSE THEY rise up BUT BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND THEN THEY ARE CHANGED INTO THEIR SPIRITUAL BODIES. HOW CAN WE BE POSITIVE? 1000% SURE. NOT HAVE A DOUBT IN THE WORLD. BET THE FARM ON IT? BECAUSE THEY ARE EVER WITH THE LORD. AND THE LORD IS ETERNAL. SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE ALSO.
ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL FLESH IS GONE. WE HAVE NOW BECOME LIKE THE ANGELS WHO NEITHER TAKE OR GIVE IN MARRIAGE. NO KIDS NO MARRIAGE. NO FLESH. ALL EARTHEN VESSELS GONE.

Actually, the "entrenched ones" as cv5 quipped are yourselves. You guys were taught a pretrib rapture somewhere along the line and bought it hook, line and sinker. As I did way back as a youth.

However, as I grew up, leaned about the Berean method of Bible study, and applied that principle to what OTHERS were saying, I found that some did speak the truth, and the proof was in the Bible.

However, others did NOT speak the truth, because there was NO evidence in the Bible.

That's where you sit. You have no evidence from the Bible about a pretrib rapture, much less about glorified believers being taken to heaven by Jesus.

It's all just a HUGE assumption. Or presumption.

FreeGrace2 said:
What you lack is any biblical evidence for your views.


Go ahead and keep kidding yourself.

You don't have any biblical evidence for your doctrine and you know it.


OK, if your evidence is so "obvious", why won't you just quote it?


Oh, I see. It's not really so "obvious" after all. One has to "pick up on it". Sure.

And you're just so smart as to be able to "pick up on" the "obvious" evidence. Unlike so many others.

Right. Sure. Just keep kidding yourself.

No verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. No verse shows Jesus resurrecting anyone before the Trib.

All you have is conjecture. There's NOTHING to "pick up on" when one conjectures.

I have shown that the Bible teaches there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved, in Acts 24:15. Can you exegete that verse and prove it says something else? If so, then just DO IT.

I have shown the Bible teaches that "those who belong to Him", being ALL believers from Adam forward, will be resurrected "when He comes", which is at the Second Coming, in 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5.

YOU: conjecture, Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven and before the Trib.

ME: biblical truth, there is one resurrection, which is for all believers, and occurs at the Second Advent.

I recall... I believe you are the poster who'd suggested that, when Satan will be released out from his prison (Rev20:7-8 [after the 1000 yrs]), he will go out to deceive GLORIFIED SAINTS (since no one else will "exist" then, in your view)

Hmmmm.....
The bereans were omission centered?

Please show us the verse that states that Simon the Leper was not a leper. I demand proof.

Please show is the verse that states that certain feasts will NOT be held in Ezekiel's millennial Temple. I demand proof.

Sure they are. So are all the NT believers. Why wouldn't they as well? Are they going to miss the NE and the NJ?

So you purposely leave out all the NT believers. I wonder where you place them?

Too much conjecture there.

View attachment 236063

They just don't get it man. My guess is they are entrenched in their ossified linear Hellenistic thinking. They don't seem to understand that Scripture demands that you make assumptions about things NOT being said. Those two prolific posters here are basically 100% wrong 100% of the time. It's incredible man. I mean they may intersect the truth accidentally once in a while. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again.

FreeGrace2 said:

Regarding the NJ under "universe", did you forget where the NJ SITS? On the NE. Don't forget that.

[again, for the readers: the 24 elders are shown to be saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." (5:9,[4]) and this, BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (1:1[7:3]/ 1:19c / 4:1), aka the "7 yr Trib" / "future" aspects of the Book]

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light...` (Rev. 21: 24)

Thus it needs to be ABOVE the earth for that to happen.

So far this is what I have been taught, if you could call it that. Correcting what is wrong seems to work out much better, so I have put forth WHAT I THINK YOU ARE TEACHING (but most likely am wrong but after 2000 plus posts am thinking another tactic is necessary).

So here is what I have learned so far. My confusion should be obvious.


Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is taken up to heaven and he is going to be shown things that will be coming in the future. But the future has already happened and IN REALITY CHRIST has just got back from the earth with the rapture of the church and it is 2000 years in the future.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

God is sitting on the throne

Revelation 4:3 And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

ARE THESE 24 SEATS AND 24 ELDERS NO LONGER "24 SEATS AND 24 ELDERS" BUT NOW "THE CHURCHES" THAT WERE JUST SEEN ON THE EARTH HAVING BEEN RAPTURED TO HEAVEN?

IF SO, WHY ARE WE GIVEN ZERO INFORMATION ON SUCH AN EVENT?

WHY WOULD THE 'CHURCHES' GET A NAME CHANGE AT THIS POINT?

WHY WOULD THE NAME BE CHANGED TO 'ELDERS' KNOWING 'ELDERS' HAS A MEANING OF ITS OWN WITHIN THE CHURCHES? I THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING RAPTURED TO BE THE BRIDE? OR ARE THEY THE BODY?

WHAT ARE THE 'USED TO BE ELDERS' CALLED NOW?

HAS CHRIST ALREADY BEEN SENT TO THE EARTH IN THE FLESH,
BEEN CRUCIFIED,
RETURNED TO HEAVEN,
SPENT THE NEXT 2000 YEARS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD
ALL ENEMIES HAVE BEEN MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL
SO HE HAS LEFT HEAVEN
COME TO THE EARTH
RAISED THE 'DEAD' (BUT NOT OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS)
'RAPTURED' THE CHURCH
RETURNED TO THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER
SEATED THE 'CHURCH' WHICH IS HIS BODY IN THE 24 SEATS AND
NOW IS BACK ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD AND
TRIBULATION IS BEGINNING ON THE EARTH?

DO I HAVE THAT SEQUENCE OF EVENTS CORRECT? PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR NOT KNOWING ANY OF THIS STUFF AFTER 2000 PLUS POSTS BUT I CAN'T GET ANYONE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS IN A CLEAR AND SIMPLE MANNER. YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD TEACH WHAT THEY KNEW BUT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE HAPPENING SO I AM GOING TO HAVE TO GUESS MY WAY THROUGH SO THAT I CAN BE CORRECTED AND BELITTLED FOR HOW EVER LONG IT TAKES TO WRESTLE THIS INFORMATION OUT OF THOSE WHO CLAIM TO KNOW IT.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

AND THE TRIBULATION IS STILL TAKING PLACE ON EARTH AT THIS TIME, CORRECT OR INCORRECT?

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

IS THIS GOD WITH CHRIST ON HIS RIGHT HAND (AGAIN) AND THE CHURCH SEATED ROUND AND TRIB STILL TAKING PLACE ON THE EARTH?

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

IS THIS JUST BACKGROUND INFORMATION TELLING US AT SOME POINT NO ONE WAS WORTHY TO OPEN OR LOOK AT THE BOOK?

Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

IS THIS 1/24 OF 'THE BODY' SAYING WEEP NOT? HOW DOES 'ONE ELDER' WHEN IT IS A MULTITUDE OF PEOPLES WORK?

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

THE LAMB IN THE MIDST OF THE CHURCH UP IN HEAVEN. IS THIS BOOK BEING OPENED UP AS TRIB IS STARTING DOWN ON THE EARTH? OR HAS THE TRIB BEEN RAGING ON AND NOW THE SEALS ARE BEING OPENED?

Revelation 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

ARE WE NOW BEING TAKEN BACK TO REV 4:4?

Revelation 5:8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

IS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH COMING TO THE EARTH RIGHT NOW OR JUST THE CHRUCH? IS THE TRIB OVER?

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH RIGHT NOW THE UN SAVED?

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

IS THE TRIB OVER?


Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

ARE THEY ALL STILL IN HEAVEN? IS TRIB STARTING? is this a recap?

FreeGrace2:

Poor Simon the Leper. He has to be a leper because that's exactly what the Bible says. It's right there in black and white. If you have any proof to the contrary show me the verse.

Simon the Leper. Simon the Leper. Simon the Leper.

Omegatime,

Why the sad face with my reply to cv5?

I suppose he thinks that just because there is no verse showing that Simon had been healed, he refutes my charge that the pretribbers have no verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Well, here's the difference. There IS a verse that SHOWS that Simon HAD been healed, unlike the pretribbers problem.

Matt 26-
6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper,
7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”

We see here that Jesus was with His disciples, so this wasn't a private dinner between Jesus and Simon. No, it was really a dinner party, with Jesus' disciples (12?) with Him.

Now, if Simon was STILL a leper, you think any of the disciples would have attended? Of course not. In those days, lepers were shunned. No one would come near a leper.

So, there IS evidence that Simon WAS healed, because the disciples came with Jesus.

But there are NO VERSES showing that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.

Big difference.

So far this is what I have been taught, if you could call it that. Correcting what is wrong seems to work out much better, so I have put forth WHAT I THINK YOU ARE TEACHING (but most likely am wrong but after 2000 plus posts am thinking another tactic is necessary).

So here is what I have learned so far. My confusion should be obvious.


Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is taken up to heaven and he is going to be shown things that will be coming in the future. But the future has already happened and IN REALITY CHRIST has just got back from the earth with the rapture of the church and it is 2000 years in the future.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

God is sitting on the throne

Revelation 4:3 And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

ARE THESE 24 SEATS AND 24 ELDERS NO LONGER "24 SEATS AND 24 ELDERS" BUT NOW "THE CHURCHES" THAT WERE JUST SEEN ON THE EARTH HAVING BEEN RAPTURED TO HEAVEN?

IF SO, WHY ARE WE GIVEN ZERO INFORMATION ON SUCH AN EVENT?

WHY WOULD THE 'CHURCHES' GET A NAME CHANGE AT THIS POINT?

WHY WOULD THE NAME BE CHANGED TO 'ELDERS' KNOWING 'ELDERS' HAS A MEANING OF ITS OWN WITHIN THE CHURCHES? I THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING RAPTURED TO BE THE BRIDE? OR ARE THEY THE BODY?

WHAT ARE THE 'USED TO BE ELDERS' CALLED NOW?

HAS CHRIST ALREADY BEEN SENT TO THE EARTH IN THE FLESH,
BEEN CRUCIFIED,
RETURNED TO HEAVEN,
SPENT THE NEXT 2000 YEARS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD
ALL ENEMIES HAVE BEEN MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL
SO HE HAS LEFT HEAVEN
COME TO THE EARTH
RAISED THE 'DEAD' (BUT NOT OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS)
'RAPTURED' THE CHURCH
RETURNED TO THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER
SEATED THE 'CHURCH' WHICH IS HIS BODY IN THE 24 SEATS AND
NOW IS BACK ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD AND
TRIBULATION IS BEGINNING ON THE EARTH?

DO I HAVE THAT SEQUENCE OF EVENTS CORRECT? PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR NOT KNOWING ANY OF THIS STUFF AFTER 2000 PLUS POSTS BUT I CAN'T GET ANYONE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS IN A CLEAR AND SIMPLE MANNER. YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD TEACH WHAT THEY KNEW BUT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE HAPPENING SO I AM GOING TO HAVE TO GUESS MY WAY THROUGH SO THAT I CAN BE CORRECTED AND BELITTLED FOR HOW EVER LONG IT TAKES TO WRESTLE THIS INFORMATION OUT OF THOSE WHO CLAIM TO KNOW IT.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

AND THE TRIBULATION IS STILL TAKING PLACE ON EARTH AT THIS TIME, CORRECT OR INCORRECT?

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

IS THIS GOD WITH CHRIST ON HIS RIGHT HAND (AGAIN) AND THE CHURCH SEATED ROUND AND TRIB STILL TAKING PLACE ON THE EARTH?

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

IS THIS JUST BACKGROUND INFORMATION TELLING US AT SOME POINT NO ONE WAS WORTHY TO OPEN OR LOOK AT THE BOOK?

Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

IS THIS 1/24 OF 'THE BODY' SAYING WEEP NOT? HOW DOES 'ONE ELDER' WHEN IT IS A MULTITUDE OF PEOPLES WORK?

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

THE LAMB IN THE MIDST OF THE CHURCH UP IN HEAVEN. IS THIS BOOK BEING OPENED UP AS TRIB IS STARTING DOWN ON THE EARTH? OR HAS THE TRIB BEEN RAGING ON AND NOW THE SEALS ARE BEING OPENED?

Revelation 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

ARE WE NOW BEING TAKEN BACK TO REV 4:4?

Revelation 5:8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

IS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH COMING TO THE EARTH RIGHT NOW OR JUST THE CHRUCH? IS THE TRIB OVER?

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH RIGHT NOW THE UN SAVED?

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

IS THE TRIB OVER?


Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

ARE THEY ALL STILL IN HEAVEN? IS TRIB STARTING? is this a recap?