this ones for the broken hearted(livechatdown)

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Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,799
8,103
113
#41
Tonight was a case in point.

I'm changing churches, needing one with greater fellowshipping opportunities. I figured it would be rude to simply stop showing up at the church I've been attending, so I went by to say goodbye to a few people. I explained that I was starting to look for a new church. The reactions from my pastor and assoc. pastor were ... indifferent, nonchalant.

I take things seriously. I take people seriously. What for others is apparently meaningless, shallow interaction, means something to me. If we say hi and have actual conversations, and this takes place periodically over almost 2 years, I expect that I mean a tad more to you than, "Oh, okay!" when I say goodbye.

WTH
Well... yeah.

If you went to your favorite restaurant and told the waiter, "I'm gonna start looking for a new restaurant" that would be somewhat crass. But instead of saying "Well fine, jerk! We don't need you either." they would probably be polite and act indifferent, nonchalant.

Same thing if you told your doctor, "I'm gonna shop around and see if I can find a doctor who takes care of me better" or if you announced to your boss that you were looking for a different job. They would all either look at you funny or cover the funny look by acting nonchalant. It's about the best a person can do on the spur of the moment when someone tells him "I'm leaving what you have because somebody else offers something better."
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,211
1,831
113
#42
My sinful nature is still a thorn in my side, motivating me to do things that I need to repent of later. If the sinful nature is supposed to be "cut away", then I am not saved by what you describe above. My 'old man' is alive and... kicking. I try to deflect the kicks, I try to avoid feeding him, but he's stubborn and refuses to give up. I could list my sinful difficulties, but I see no need to do that. I think you get the point.

Even Paul had to battle this. Not sure where this leaves me. I get differing counsel from different Christians, each believing that they are right, and that they are told by Scripture to take the tack they have taken. This is confusion. I've had Christians question my salvation. I've had others affirm it and tell me that I need to rest in Him. Both cannot be right.

What do I think in my heart? I waver back and forth. I've had things happen to me that I have difficulty believing would ever happen to an unbeliever. Then... I see the rot in my heart, the dark, rebellious pride, I think back on my sins, and then my spiritual insecurity creeps back up.

I'll pray about the things you've said. I hope God responds before Judgment Day.
Gojira . . .

Whether or not you are saved . . . I do not want to tell you one way or the other. All that I can say is that I wish that someone had told me about Colossians 2:9-15. If I had known about that Scripture, I would have been able to determine why it was that I was drinking like a fish, addicted to sex and porn, and on and on. I wasn't a horrible person, but Christians do not frequent strip clubs . . . right? If our heart has been changed by God, then our actions will begin to change as well. Look at Paul: Paul went from killer to telling us to feed our enemies. Paul changed perhaps faster than anyone in the NT. Within two weeks of his Damascus Road experience, he was preaching. That's unbelievable.

As for Paul struggling . . . well, I don't read that in Scripture. I do see, however, that the way that he worded things that it made it seem as though he was. Unfortunately, translations never take us closer to an author's true meaning, but if anything, further away. 18 times Paul tells us to model ourselves after him, for in by doing so, people would be imitating Christ. Paul wanted no glory, so when he said those things, it was not "Hey, look at how great I am!" Nothing like that. If Paul's life was out of control with sin, he would never ask his readers to imitate his lifestyle. More, he once reminded a group of people of how he lived, that they were there to see his righteous and holy life. Romans chapter seven talks about poor behavior existing because of the Sinful Nature, but Colossians talks about how that Nature is to be removed. How could Paul teach that the Curse must be removed, yet also write about how he was under it's influence? What's more . . . it would be completely backward if Paul were an Apostle while remaining under the Curse. It doesn't make sense. Anyway, this is one of the big debates that goes on within every Christian forum.

So, pray that the Lord would Circumcise your heart. If He has already done it, then you will at least slowly begin to change. But don't be alarmed to realize that you may not be saved, for you are already aware that your life does not emulate that of an actual, True Christian. And what is a True Christian? Paul tells us in Romans 2:

Romans 2:29 NLT - "No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

Yes, Paul was writing to Jews in Romans, but we know that there is one Faith, one Baptism, and one Lord. Therefore, Circumcision of the Heart is for all Children of God. And what do we find? It is a change of heart produced by the Spirit of God . . . in other words, Colossians 2:9-15. Interestingly, we find the Trinity concept in Spiritual Circumcision. Here's another reference to God performing that amazing act:

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Now, we're not all saved at the same time, right? King David was being trained by the Spirit while at his mother's breast. Then there are others who, while on their death-beds, in their final moments, with a wonderfully shocked look on their faces, they reach up into the sky as if to see the Lord . . . they waited their entire lives to finally be Baptized into Christ. So stop worrying. I believe that your heart is in the right place. Do your best to relax, but never stop asking the Lord for Purification. Never stop. The Lord did not appear to me until age 48 or 49. To that point, I believed I was a Christian, but I was not. Then, out of the blue, the Lord Chose me (instead of my choosing Him) and he Powerfully saved me. I was lucky, for no one was teaching me any of the things that I am teaching you. But if I had known, I would have known what to pray for, as said above.

Again, I'm sorry that we are not closer in proximity, as you could really benefit from hanging out with someone who sees this side of the Bible. So, much respect to you. I believe in you.

John 15:16 NKJV - 16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

Ask that the Lord would Choose you . . . and what does this mean? It means to have your heart Circumcised by Christ.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,248
25,719
113
#43

From 1 Corinthians 15:50-54
:)
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#44
Gojira . . .

Whether or not you are saved . . . I do not want to tell you one way or the other.
Isn't everything @Gojira has professed PROOF of the spirit at work?
Without the SPIRIT we cannot discern the wisdom of GOD...
Because, without the Spirit, we don't bother.
Being reborn IS a crisis of conscience.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,678
113
#45
My sinful nature is still a thorn in my side, motivating me to do things that I need to repent of later. If the sinful nature is supposed to be "cut away", then I am not saved by what you describe above. My 'old man' is alive and... kicking. I try to deflect the kicks, I try to avoid feeding him, but he's stubborn and refuses to give up. I could list my sinful difficulties, but I see no need to do that. I think you get the point.

Even Paul had to battle this. Not sure where this leaves me. I get differing counsel from different Christians, each believing that they are right, and that they are told by Scripture to take the tack they have taken. This is confusion. I've had Christians question my salvation. I've had others affirm it and tell me that I need to rest in Him. Both cannot be right.

What do I think in my heart? I waver back and forth. I've had things happen to me that I have difficulty believing would ever happen to an unbeliever. Then... I see the rot in my heart, the dark, rebellious pride, I think back on my sins, and then my spiritual insecurity creeps back up.

I'll pray about the things you've said. I hope God responds before Judgment Day.
Our spirit becomes born again, not our flesh. I hope that at least offers some reason as to why it's possible to be a born again Christian and still have a body that not only wants to sin, but insists upon sinning.

You seem familiar with Paul and his account of his own struggle with sin in Romans 7:13-25, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Or how about 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, where new Christians (babes in Christ) were still carnal, envious, filled with strife, with divisions in their group yet were still identified as "in Christ."

We all have issues in some form or fashion as Christians and we are all at different spots on our spiritual journey to maturity. I have my issues, you have yours, others have theirs. Try to give yourself a bit of grace because you are still working on it. You are aware of the issue and have not completely given into sin.

The key is to keep walking in the light; keep struggling to do all things pleasing to God, as much as possible, because you love God. We may fail sometimes, but we get back up and keep trying. That's how we walk in the light and remain in God's grace. It's that easy; you just never give up.

1 John 1:7 KJV
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,211
1,831
113
#46
Gojira . . . be very cautious that you NOT look at your sinful life so as to determine the meaning of Scripture. The Bible is clear that anyone with a changed heart will change their behavior. You are reborn of God and possess no pattern of sin.

1 John 3:8-10 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God."

I realize that everyone is going to throw their own self-mirrored doctrine at you, but the doctrine that matters is the one that comes from the Bible . . . such as:

1 John 3:8-10 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. (2TG Edit - Remember what I said about the Purpose of Christ?) Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. (2TG Edit - Remember what I said about no pattern of sin?) So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. (2TG Edit - Why are they Children of God? Because their hearts had been Circumcised by Christ.) 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God."

I am not asking that you believe me and the things that I write, but I am asking that you would study the Word for yourself and make your determination at that point.
 

Gojira

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2021
5,668
2,295
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Mesa, AZ
#47
Gojira . . . be very cautious that you NOT look at your sinful life so as to determine the meaning of Scripture. The Bible is clear that anyone with a changed heart will change their behavior. You are reborn of God and possess no pattern of sin.

1 John 3:8-10 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God."

I realize that everyone is going to throw their own self-mirrored doctrine at you, but the doctrine that matters is the one that comes from the Bible . . . such as:

1 John 3:8-10 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. (2TG Edit - Remember what I said about the Purpose of Christ?) Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. (2TG Edit - Remember what I said about no pattern of sin?) So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. (2TG Edit - Why are they Children of God? Because their hearts had been Circumcised by Christ.) 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God."

I am not asking that you believe me and the things that I write, but I am asking that you would study the Word for yourself and make your determination at that point.
Umm... I never said that I was habitually living a life of sin. I got my sinful issues, but I suppose because I am not perfectly sinless at this time I am unsaved in your eyes (no... the eyes of the verses you laid out). Well, if that's the criteria, I don't know a single Christian who has anything to look forward to on Judgment Day.

Paul, by the way, was probably lying when he said that he did the things he didn't want to do, and vice versa, and that he was the chief of sinners. Oops... he couldn't be lying because that would make him a sinner. But if he wasn't lying...

Opinions are like rectums... you know the rest. I'm going to have to trust God's goodness and mercy to make me ready for Judgment Day as I seek Him diligently and daily.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,211
1,831
113
#48
Umm... I never said that I was habitually living a life of sin. I got my sinful issues, but I suppose because I am not perfectly sinless at this time I am unsaved in your eyes (no... the eyes of the verses you laid out). Well, if that's the criteria, I don't know a single Christian who has anything to look forward to on Judgment Day.

Paul, by the way, was probably lying when he said that he did the things he didn't want to do, and vice versa, and that he was the chief of sinners. Oops... he couldn't be lying because that would make him a sinner. But if he wasn't lying...

Opinions are like rectums... you know the rest. I'm going to have to trust God's goodness and mercy to make me ready for Judgment Day as I seek Him diligently and daily.
Your sarcasm is noted.

I'm sorry that I've wasted your time.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#50
As a Christian, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to say he obviously means well... But, on this site, it's just so hard to tell. My experience has taught me that everyone has more in common than they think. The irony of a Christian blog site is, we crucify each other over our minor differences...
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#51
Tonight was a case in point.

I'm changing churches, needing one with greater fellowshipping opportunities. I figured it would be rude to simply stop showing up at the church I've been attending, so I went by to say goodbye to a few people. I explained that I was starting to look for a new church. The reactions from my pastor and assoc. pastor were ... indifferent, nonchalant.

I take things seriously. I take people seriously. What for others is apparently meaningless, shallow interaction, means something to me. If we say hi and have actual conversations, and this takes place periodically over almost 2 years, I expect that I mean a tad more to you than, "Oh, okay!" when I say goodbye.

WTH
I think I understand how you feel very well.
People in the church don't know each other. Although they are brothers and sisters, they are more like strangers.
Not all cases of course, but most of the time.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#52
I had one in Glendale, CA. But... if what you say is true, it explains the rise of the pagan Left in America.
Who are you referring to as pagans?
 

Gojira

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2021
5,668
2,295
113
Mesa, AZ
#55
As a Christian, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to say he obviously means well... But, on this site, it's just so hard to tell. My experience has taught me that everyone has more in common than they think. The irony of a Christian blog site is, we crucify each other over our minor differences...
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I hear you. And, I don't "hate" 2Tim. I've just had enough of the discouragement. I generate enough of my own.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#57
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I hear you. And, I don't "hate" 2Tim. I've just had enough of the discouragement. I generate enough of my own.
Don't we all... :cool:
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,248
25,719
113
#60
Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy
seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."
That is an excellent verse for a panel :D Thank You! :)