Truth or Traditions of men

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

BeeThePeace

Active member
May 2, 2022
443
135
43
Verse 27 of the quote in the post you just responded to. I sent you a private message, did you see it? or did I clicked cancel by mistake?
You must have hit cancel. I didnt receive anything.

John 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 

BeeThePeace

Active member
May 2, 2022
443
135
43
Jesus' body can't have been the man of flesh after crucifixion as he was prior to.

Othe rwise, if he was that same flesh and blood man after resurrection, the new covenant failed. And his mission on the cross was not accomplished.

Yet, we know it was accomplished. And Jesus was in his glorified body after his resurrection.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
You must have hit cancel. I didnt receive anything.

John 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
My Question was: what church do you attend? Some of your arguments were developed by Arian Cults like Jehovah's Witnesses, International Bible Students and Christadelphians. I am hoping you are Catholic Brother, because they are Christians, not cults.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,713
4,077
113
62
It doesn't actually. In fact, Thomas "saw and believed."
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

So thankful that we believe , even though we have not seen :)...
The Lords word is good enough...
...xox...
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
You must have hit cancel. I didnt receive anything.

John 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers[a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet." (Luke 24.37-40)

"After the resurrection, Jesus was able to eat (Luke 24:42-43). He showed people His hands and feet with the nail prints in them (Luke 24:39; John 20:27), and people even grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Matt. 28:9). "
https://carm.org/doctrine-and-theology/jesus-resurrection-was-physical/

no able to read this one frames are messed up: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1352.cfm

there are some scriptures on the body after one goes to heaven: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Our-Resurrection

Resurrection in general: https://www.sharefaith.com/blog/2016/02/60-bible-verses-resurrection-jesus/
https://www.openbible.info/topics/resurrection_of_christ

"The key texts, in my opinion, are probably 1 Corinthians 15 (especially verses 35-58) and 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. Another key text would be Philippians 1:21-23."

good summary: https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-body.html
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
Jesus' body can't have been the man of flesh after crucifixion as he was prior to.

Othe rwise, if he was that same flesh and blood man after resurrection, the new covenant failed. And his mission on the cross was not accomplished.

Yet, we know it was accomplished. And Jesus was in his glorified body after his resurrection.
I posted a few verses to show that some people touched the glorified, resurrected body of Jesus. John also posted the verse from I John 1:1 We want to tell you about the Word[a] that gives life—the one who existed before the world began. This is the one we have heard and have seen with our own eyes. We saw what he did, and our hands touched him. 2 Yes, the one who is life was shown to us. We saw him, and so we can tell others about him. We now tell you about him. He is the eternal life that was with God the Father and was shown to us. 3 We are telling you about what we have seen and heard because we want you to have fellowship[b] with us. The fellowship we share together is with God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. 4 We write these things to you so that you can be full of joy with us.

I forget who the lady was that held onto him before his ascension to the Father.
 

BeeThePeace

Active member
May 2, 2022
443
135
43
I posted a few verses to show that some people touched the glorified, resurrected body of Jesus. John also posted the verse from I John 1:1 We want to tell you about the Word[a] that gives life—the one who existed before the world began. This is the one we have heard and have seen with our own eyes. We saw what he did, and our hands touched him. 2 Yes, the one who is life was shown to us. We saw him, and so we can tell others about him. We now tell you about him. He is the eternal life that was with God the Father and was shown to us. 3 We are telling you about what we have seen and heard because we want you to have fellowship[b] with us. The fellowship we share together is with God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. 4 We write these things to you so that you can be full of joy with us.

I forget who the lady was that held onto him before his ascension to the Father.
I dont think the 1 John verse is describing touching Jesus glorified body. Jesus told Mary she couldn't touch him. I don't think that would change because and for the same reason Mary couldn't touch him.
 

BeeThePeace

Active member
May 2, 2022
443
135
43
Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers[a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet." (Luke 24.37-40)

"After the resurrection, Jesus was able to eat (Luke 24:42-43). He showed people His hands and feet with the nail prints in them (Luke 24:39; John 20:27), and people even grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Matt. 28:9). "
https://carm.org/doctrine-and-theology/jesus-resurrection-was-physical/

no able to read this one frames are messed up: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1352.cfm

there are some scriptures on the body after one goes to heaven: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Our-Resurrection

Resurrection in general: https://www.sharefaith.com/blog/2016/02/60-bible-verses-resurrection-jesus/
https://www.openbible.info/topics/resurrection_of_christ

"The key texts, in my opinion, are probably 1 Corinthians 15 (especially verses 35-58) and 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. Another key text would be Philippians 1:21-23."

good summary: https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-body.html
Inviting to touch. But I don't see it recorded they did touch him.

He entered a locked room. Human flesh and blood does not. If we say he wasn't human flesh and blood then we revoke the idea he was a man as he was prior to crucifixion.
 

BeeThePeace

Active member
May 2, 2022
443
135
43
I posted a few verses to show that some people touched the glorified, resurrected body of Jesus. John also posted the verse from I John 1:1 We want to tell you about the Word[a] that gives life—the one who existed before the world began. This is the one we have heard and have seen with our own eyes. We saw what he did, and our hands touched him. 2 Yes, the one who is life was shown to us. We saw him, and so we can tell others about him. We now tell you about him. He is the eternal life that was with God the Father and was shown to us. 3 We are telling you about what we have seen and heard because we want you to have fellowship[b] with us. The fellowship we share together is with God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. 4 We write these things to you so that you can be full of joy with us.

I forget who the lady was that held onto him before his ascension to the Father.
I don't recall any such woman.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/20-17.htm
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
I dont think the 1 John verse is describing touching Jesus glorified body. Jesus told Mary she couldn't touch him. I don't think that would change because and for the same reason Mary couldn't touch him.
The Greek is plan, He told her to let go of him, stop holding onto me.
"

"Touch me not
(μη μου απτου). Present middle imperative in prohibition with genitive case, meaning "cease clinging to me" rather than "Do not touch me." Jesus allowed the women to take hold of his feet (εκρατησαν) and worship (προσεκυνησαν) as we read in Matthew 28:9 (NAS)" https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/john-20.html

A.T. Robertson is a well known Greek Scholar. A choice between your opinion friend, and his Robertson wins every time.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
"Jesus forbids Mary to worship Him [although K. proves that ἅπτεσθαι is used of that clinging to the knees or feet which was adopted by suppliants], because He accepts Thomas’ worship even before His ascension; but, as He Himself says, οὔπω γὰρ ἀναβέβηκα πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου, “for I have not yet ascended to my Father,” implying that this was not His permanent return to visible fellowship with His disciples. Mary, by her eagerness to seize and hold Him, showed that she considered that the μικρόν, the “little time,” of John 16:16, was past, and that now He had returned to be for ever with them. Jesus checks her with the assurance that much had yet to happen before that. His disciples must at once be disabused of that misapprehension. Therefore, πορεύου … ὑμῶν, “Go to my brothers [ἀδελφούς μου, here for the first time; in anticipation of the latter part of the sentence, cf. Mark 3:35] and tell them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God”. He thus forms a relationship which bound Him to them more closely than His bodily presence. "
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/20-17.htm

Another Greek Scholar who backs up the Truth.


John 20:17, NIV: Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.''

John 20:17, ESV: Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

John 20:17, NASB: Jesus *said to her, 'Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’?'

John 20:17, CSB: "Don't cling to me," Jesus told her, "since I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

"
What does John 20:17 mean? [⇑ See verse text ⇑]
This response is to Mary Magdalene, who has just realized that the person speaking to her at Jesus' empty grave is Christ, Himself (John 20:11–16). The term Jesus uses here is haptou, which implies a close, clutching action. Later, Jesus will invite others to physically touch Him (John 20:27). So, His meaning here does not seem to be that Mary should not contact Him, at all. It more likely means that she is not to stay there, or keep clinging to Him, but that she needs to go and tell the disciples what she has seen."
https://www.bibleref.com/John/20/John-20-17.html

Other Scholars:
https://ministry.journeyonline.org/lessons/john-2017/?series=692
https://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40485
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
Inviting to touch. But I don't see it recorded they did touch him.

He entered a locked room. Human flesh and blood does not. If we say he wasn't human flesh and blood then we revoke the idea he was a man as he was prior to crucifixion.
I gave many examples of him being touched and some of eating fish. I am not sure did you answer my question about what church you attend? What is it?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
"
Characteristics of the risen body
All shall rise from the dead in their own, in their entire, and in immortal bodies; but the good shall rise to the resurrection of life, the wicked to the resurrection of Judgment. It would destroy the very idea of resurrection, if the dead were to rise in bodies not their own. Again, the resurrection, like the creation, is to be numbered amongst the principal works of God; hence, as at the creation all things are perfect from the hand of God, so at the resurrection all things must be perfectly restored by the same omnipotent hand. But there is a difference between the earthly and the risen body; for the risen bodies of both saints and sinners shall be invested with immortality. This admirable restoration of nature is the result of the glorious triumph of Christ over death as described in several texts of Sacred Scripture: Isaiah 25:8; Osee, xiii, 14; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Apocalypse 2:4. But while the just shall enjoy an endless felicity in the entirety of their restored members, the wicked "shall seek death, and shall not find it, shall desire to die, and death shall fly from them" (Revelation 9:6).

These three characteristics, identity, entirety, and immortality, will be common to the risen bodies of the just and the wicked. But the bodies of the saints shall be distinguished by four transcendent endowments, often called qualities.

The first is "impassibility", which shall place them beyond the reach of pain and inconvenience. "It is sown", says the Apostle, "in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15:42). The Schoolmen call this quality impassibility', not incorruption, so as to mark it as a peculiarity of the glorified body; the bodies of the damned will be incorruptible indeed, but not impassible; they shall be subject to heat and cold, and all manner of pain."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,713
4,077
113
62
Mary was desperate to cling to her Messiah , she did not want Him to go again...
Jesus told her not to cling to Him , for He knew He would only be with her and disciples for a short temporary time...
She understood this later as the disciples did...
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,894
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
"Thus, however, thus He willed Himself to be touched; thus He is touched by those by whom He is profitably touched, ascending to the Father, abiding with the Father, equal to the Father. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm

Also, good texts to use with Arians.

"108. Lastly, you have read that the Father is both Lord and God: O Lord my God, I will call upon You, hear me. You find the Son to be both Lord and God, as you have read in the Gospel, that, when Thomas had touched the side of Christ, he said, My Lord and my God. John 20:28 So in like manner as the Father is God and the Son Lord, so too the Son is God and the Father Lord. The holy designation changes from one to the other, the divine nature changes not, but the dignity remains unchangeable. For they are not [as it were] contributions gathered from bounty, but free-will gifts of natural love; for both Unity has its special property, and the special properties are bound together in unity. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34023.htm
 

kenallen

Active member
Apr 8, 2022
437
92
28
HOW IS THIS SO HARD TO GRASP & WHAT IS THE FASINATION WITH THE FLESH BODY?​


Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

God makes it clear from the start. Your body came from the ground and your Body will return to the ground

Job 34:13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world? 14If He set his heart upon man, if He gather unto Himself His spirit and His breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Verse 15 from the Strong's Concordance

All Strong's Hebrew 3605: 1) all, the whole 1a) all, the whole of 1b) any, each, every, anything 1c) totality, everything


flesh Strong's Hebrew 1320: 1) flesh 1a) of the body 1a1) of humans 1a2) of animals 1b) the body itself 1c) male organ of generation (euphemism) 1d) kindred, blood-relations 1e) flesh as frail or erring (man against God) 1f) all living things 1g) animals 1h) mankind

would perish Strong's Hebrew 1478: 1) to expire, die, perish, give up the ghost, yield up the ghost, be dead, be ready to die 1a) (Qal) to expire, die, be about to die

together Strong's Hebrew 3162: n m 1) union, unitedness adv 2) together, altogether, all together, alike
and mankind Strong's Hebrew 120: 1) man, mankind 1a) man, human being 1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT) 1c) Adam, first man 1d) city in Jordan valley
would return Strong's Hebrew 7725: 1) to return, turn back 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to turn back, return 1a1a) to turn back 1a1b) to return, come or go back 1a1c) to return unto, go back, come back 1a1d) of dying 1a1e) of human relations

to Strong's Hebrew 5921: prep 1) upon, on the ground of, according to, on account of, on behalf of, concerning, beside, in addition to, together with, beyond, above, over, by, on to, towards, to, against.

the dust. Strong's Hebrew 6083:1) dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish 1a) dry or loose earth 1b) debris 1c) mortar 1d) ore

Psalms 146:3 3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastics 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I thought that I would stop here before going into the New testament.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
4,910
2,532
113
London
christianchat.com
So your saying that What Paul wrote here is not true. You are saying God's word is not true.
New International Version
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

New Living Translation
What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

English Standard Version
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Berean Study Bible
Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Berean Literal Bible
Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does decay inherit immortality.

King James Bible
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

New King James Version
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

New American Standard Bible
Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Matthew 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Strong's #3339: metamorphoo (pronounced met-am-or-fo'-o) from 3326 and 3445; to transform (literally or figuratively, "metamorphose"):--change, transfigure, transform. Thayer's Greek Lexicon: ́ .
resurrected bodies, new bodies.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,046
113
Jesus' body can't have been the man of flesh after crucifixion as he was prior to.

Othe rwise, if he was that same flesh and blood man after resurrection, the new covenant failed. And his mission on the cross was not accomplished.

Yet, we know it was accomplished. And Jesus was in his glorified body after his resurrection.
The LORD did not put on His Glorified body until after His Ascention.

His physical body was the same body but now resurrected.

How do we know this = HE was SINLESS, including His Physical Body otherwise His mission on the Cross failed.

Fixed it for ya................PEACE my Brother