Being born of water and Spirit

@Runningman

Water baptism has its place in the realm of 'righteousness' - but, not in any sense of making the one being baptized 'righteous'.

It is a 'reflection'; it is not 'causal'.

Should born-again believers be baptized? Sure. But, it does not altar the status of their salvation.

This scripture speaks of SPIRITUAL Water = not fleshy water baptism but the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
"that which is Spirit is spirit"

The OT Scripture that speak of fleshly water baptism is in Genesis concerning the FLOOD.
There are more references to the fleshly water baptism in OT as well.

NEVER does the LORD associate or include fleshly water baptism to be the REDEEMING/CLEANSING Power of GOD

Isaiah 12:2-3

Ezekiel 36:25-26

Yes but it's printed in German and sells for around $111.

I don't know about all of you, but . . .

. . . I've been washed in the blood of the Lamb!

Amen!

I’m not saying that water baptism makes someone righteous and that’s definitely not what Jesus said either.

Baptism is a righteous act because God commands commands water baptism. It’s righteous to obey God. Obeying God from birth to death is fulfilling all righteousness and getting water baptized is part of doing every righteous thing. That’s what I know Jesus was saying.

Amen me too!

Have you ever been water baptized?

My brother reminded me a minute ago that he and I have had this discussion a year back or so, but I completely forgot. He makes a real good argument for "water" not meaning amniotic fluid in this passage. Here are his comments:

Yes, it is an ongoing debate. I think it was DA Carson who dismissed “water” (Greek hydor) as representing amniotic fluid because he could find no support for that in biblical or extra-biblical writings from that time. I scanned hydor in BDAG, the best Greek-English lexicon, but nothing unusual jumped out at me. It just meant water, including ocean water.
I had once held this interpretation because the Bible seems to use “the language of appearance.” Sleep can mean death, winged creatures (bats) may be regarded as birds, rabbits chew the cud, the sun can rise and go down. Water and blood poured from Jesus’ side. Pericardial fluid and amniotic fluid look like water. Twenty-first century scientific precision is an alien genre here, so I felt Jesus could be referring to amniotic fluid as water, either literally or figuratively.

Also, I thought that “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 ran parallel to and could be interpreted by “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” in 3:6.

However, when you and I talked about where in the Bible Jesus may have found a precedent for the new birth, leading to his reprimand to Nicodemus: “‘You are Israel’s teacher,’ said Jesus, ‘and you do not understand these things?’”, we looked to Ezekiel 36:25-27. There water is used figuratively. Why not in John 3:5, especially if Jesus is alluding to this passage, though Nicodemus isn’t catching it?

Although changing one’s view shouldn’t persuade anyone else for that mere reason alone, I did find this latter view more satisfying. Was I allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture based upon a legitimate allusion? I think so, and I have found this a more satisfying interpretation.

So I will refrain from calling the "water" Natural Birth. But I continue to believe it was, alternatively, something that was, in fact, water. Perhaps it was like being born as a nation through the Red Sea, or through the Jordan River. At any rate, being born as God's People under the Law did not get them saved from above. National Salvation before Christ was purely temporary and fell short of full Salvation. As such, it was purely symbolic of eternal salvation, which is by the gift of Christ's Spirit. Water Baptism does not aid in this process except that it is a good way to inform others that you're entering into the Christian life. Thanks.

I must have missed this before

“There is enough material in the Bible to build a case for salvation through faith alone and there is certainly enough material to build a case for the requirement of baptism. We need to accept both and unite the requirement of water and faith.”

that’s a good thought there because the word tells us about baptism when we decide to get baptized we’re acting in faith

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is of faith when we act upon it that’s part of “ being saved by faith alone “ the idea for us that “ faith alone” means never needing to do what God said to do and receive what he said we will receive is not faith at all it’s the opposite because we have to hear Gods word and what he said in order to have any faith

so this see is a commandment of faith

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to simplify

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”….he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

It’s faith to hear about baptism for remission of sins , believe it’s true and then follow that belief and act upon this faith

ich sprechen kaum deutsch Even though I'm half-German by ancestry.

Basically it's stuff from the anthropology of Israel taken from excerpts of Sifre and Midrash.
I'm not sure if Vines or Halleys will have it either. But Halleys should have it. It is the anthropology book.

The problem is that "modern Christianity" doesn't want to know. We, like Pharisees of old, rely upon traditions instead of truth.
And because most people rely upon pulpit preachers teachings...or those interested in selling books...but true scholarship isn't really found there. Because these people are dependent upon a paycheck. People only pay for when it's things they want to hear instead of what they need to hear.

But as far as Nicodemus and how I describe the situation in this thread....test it! See if what I'm saying is not in line with John's themes of his gospel or violates what God's word says.

What I'm saying is that Wycliffe got it wrong. And tradition has carried it forward. But there's a REASON that note exists in your Bible. Why so much contention as to include it? It obviously causes it when I mention it...so how much more to include the note. But they felt the NEED to do so.

to be born from above means to see the kingdom of God

I have never heard that somebody see it

That’s an interesting commentary by your brother and I liked reading it.

Consider a point from John 3 where Jesus said that only those born of water and Spirit can enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

In order to enter the kingdom of God, one must have a glorified resurrected body and be born of water and Spirit. I have been trying to say all along that water baptism is for the first resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Yes, my brother is largely oriented to the *language* or the *text.* He is less interested, most often, in the theology, though he is clearly orthodox in his theology. So I go to him when I want to know something about the language use.

But I'm much more oriented towards theology and interpretation of that language. So I have to back off on the idea of amniotic fluid being the "birth water," or Natural Birth. It now seems to me more related to Israel's experience under the Law, as water in that time did not refer to amniotic fluid AFAIK. As my brother said, this is something Jesus said Nicodemus should've known as a teacher in Israel. It must've had something to do with Israel's ceremonies.

So for me, water is what it was under the Law, a natural element that physically cleansed, but only cleansed spiritually by faith in God's word that the ritual would be honored as a form of obedience. It did not, however, cleanse for Eternal Life, which is what Christ alone came to do.

Birth by water seems to be a uniquely Jewish way of saying they entered into covenant with God and became God's People through the use of water as an element of temporal cleansing, though not eternal cleansing. It was a temporary fix or being set apart as God's People through obedience, even though the element of water did not actually cleanse in itself. Only the use of it through obedience brought temporary cleansing.

Water Baptism can not cleanse spiritually because water can only physically cleanse a person. I suppose you could say the act of obedience in getting baptized becomes a form of righteousness. But not even our righteousness as Christians justifies us.

Only Christ justifies us through his work on the cross, and as he freely distributes that righteousness to us. We are justified when we receive his free gift, and not by anything we do to earn that gift--not even Water Baptism.

So my new view is that being "born of water" refers to Israel's application to be God's unique children through the cleansing waters of Jewish rituals. I cannot confirm that though. If you have any more thoughts on it, I'd be interested in hearing it? I just don't think that being "born of water" has anything to do with the 1st resurrection, since that refers to Eternal Salvation, which only comes by being "born of the Spirit."

I have a different perspective on what you believe, where I view the water baptism process of rising out of the water as a kind of image of rising out of amniotic fluid. It's a kind of new birth, not literally of course, or to get clean, but by faith because God asked us to do it.

You don't have to be resurrected to have eternal life as there are examples of being a disembodied soul in scripture, but fully saved like the "souls under the altar" in Revelation. Actually, all of the dead in Christ from the beginning until now don't have bodies, nor are they required, and they are currently experiencing salvation.

This might be surprising, but are there any verses that say the resurrection of the body comes through faith alone? This isn't a trick question. I honestly can't find any.

Really, I can't say I know if dead souls of the saints are disembodied souls or not. I suppose so, since their old bodies are dead, and their new immortal bodies await them at Christ's Coming.

I would agree that we have Eternal Life now, and do not have to await our immortal bodies to actually experience Eternal Life. In other words, we can be saved now, and not just at the coming of Christ. I just don't know that this has anything to do with disembodied souls of the saints having salvation now, before their immortalization.

As to whether resurrection comes through faith, the Scriptures likely don't say this because resurrection is the product of salvation. What the Scriptures say is that we are saved through faith, with the understanding that salvation ultimately results in the resurrection of the body of the saints.

Faith isn't a force to manipulate results like resurrection. Rather, it is a response to God's word, which gives us options approved of God. Anything that God does not approve of, such as walking in sin or not walking in love, is not something we can have faith in and obtain.

But Christ obtained resurrection for us, and it is packaged with salvation so that when we have faith for the salvation Christ offers us, resurrection comes with it. We don't need to have faith for that since it is part of the salvation we accept.

I think the reason we have faith for salvation primarily is because salvation is defined as eternal life with God. We are choosing to have eternal fellowship with God. A lot comes with it, but nothing comes unless it begins with an eternal relationship with God.

I totally hear you there. Like Hebrews 11, they were commended for their faith and each person did something acting in faith. I think you have a pretty good explanation of that.

Your summary is full of attempts to apply PC to God's word. Can't do that. It says what it says.
"Not mentioned enough" ......How many times do you need it?
Suggest you review scriptures again;

Baptism is Required



Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

.......If you were baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then you do not have salvation and you are still lost. Who are you going to follow: God or man? As our Lord warns us in Matthew 15:14, "And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Don't allow someone, who has added to and taken away from God's word, to lead you. Open your eyes and read God's word for yourself. Those who have added to and taken away from God's word will be lost. If you continue to follow them, then you too will be lost.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).




God's word does not change...why would yours?

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). In that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, "flesh" birth (accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would point out that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and connects it with everlasting life and also in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who point out that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

*So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.*