Do you view Holy Communion as Literal or Symbolic?

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BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
I thought Jesus does that as he intercedes for us before our Father.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Incorrect. I have spent two years investigating every aspect of eating in the New Testament and the facts reveal the following.......

1. To break bread means to eat a meal.
2. Communion is unknown in the New Testament
3. Passover was once a year not every Sunday
4. It was not understood to be communion.
5. The only thing the Jewish church understood was a meal.
6. There is no evidence that they had bread and wine as a separate event.
7. Unleavened bread was always used on the Sabbath.
8. The bread and wine were not his body as the Jews were forbidden to drink blood and eat flesh so there was no way he was going to tell them to do what the law forbade.
9. You may understand it to be communion but the Jewish church did not.
10. The New Testament Jewish church broke bread every evening to ensure everyone had eaten that day and had not gone hungry. To offer a sip of wine and a piece of bread to someone who was hungry would be an insult.
I cor 11 refutes number 2 above
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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No argument from me. Liturgy almost always gets in the way of relationship. Some practices are for the edifying of the body some are for establishing a person's identity some are for anchoring the soul, etc. These practices should not be seen as liturgical but, rather, common among the people of God. Communion, for example, can be practiced with table wine and bread at almost any meal.
In the New Testament it was once a year at the Passover.
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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In the New Testament it was once a year at the Passover.
There is no scriptural reference for "..once a year at Passover"?

Instead, we read in 1 Corinthians 11

Jesus said (regarding the cup) "This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” Paul went on to write: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup (the Lord's Supper), you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes."

"Once a year at Passover" is a liturgical standard of some denomination. The Lord's Supper is not the Passover. Besides, we (as believers) may not celebrate the Passover (and why would you except for tradition?) so the standard is nonsensical.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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In many cases, the PhD is granted as long as the student "toes the party line" and tells the approvers what they want to hear.

Simply having a PhD is not a guarantee you are correct.

Many professors in universities and seminaries have "agendas" that require the student being mentored to agree with their belief.

Why did Jesus make it a separate event at the Passover meal? Why did he not simply say, "well, now that we've completed our meal, remember that when you eat the bread and drink the wine, you are eating my flesh and drinking my blood..."
I have too many PHD's to count, I never agreed with the party line. I clearly stated what the party line was with its pros and cons, stated my view points with both the pro's and cons too.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Holy Communion is key to sanctification. It is that Daily Bread we ask for in Our Lord's Prayer. St. Paul said we should discern the Lord's Body when we eat. We do this by exercising faith in God's Word. God said "This is My Body", therefore it becomes His Body.

Likewise, when He said, "Let there be Light", there was Light. Even Martin Luther agreed. Only John Calvin disagree. For myself, I stick with what the Holy Scriptures clearly teach, and what the Whole Church unanimously believed for 1500 years -3/4ths of Church History. Holy Communion is clearly literal.

John 6 is probably the most evident proof.

God Bless.
I Cor 11
27 So if you eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord in a way that does not fit its meaning, you are sinning against the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 Before you eat the bread and drink the cup, you should examine your own attitude. 29 If you eat and drink without paying attention to those who are the Lord’s body, your eating and drinking will cause you to be judged guilty. 30 That is why many in your group are sick and weak, and many have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves in the right way, then God would not judge us. 32 But when the Lord judges us, he punishes us to show us the right way. He does this so that we will not be condemned with the world.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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There is no scriptural reference for "..once a year at Passover"?

Instead, we read in 1 Corinthians 11

Jesus said (regarding the cup) "This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” Paul went on to write: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup (the Lord's Supper), you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes."

"Once a year at Passover" is a liturgical standard of some denomination. The Lord's Supper is not the Passover. Besides, we (as believers) may not celebrate the Passover (and why would you except for tradition?) so the standard is nonsensical.
No scriptural reference? haven't you read the telling of the Passover meal where Jesus changed it from a Jewish experience to a Christian one?

And the NT Church was made up primarily of Jews who would have no notion of a Sunday morning, (They met on the Sabbath) or drinking a sip of wine or piece of bread.

Having studied the background to the NT Church they met daily for fellowship, prayer, the apostles teaching and for the breaking of bread which means to eat a meal. And when I say studied the background I mean reading 60 books on the subject from writers of all different persuasions and eras so I think I have got it pretty well covered.

And we read in 1 Corinthians 11 that it was done in the context of a MEAL. Not a religious ritual involving a sip of wine and a piece of bread. And it was not referred to as the Lord's Supper. And the passage makes it very clear they had gathered for a meal, not a sip of wine and piece of bread.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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Hi Must. Here is one passage, among many, showing Sunday Communion was already common in the Early Church.

"On the first day of the week we came together to break bread" (Acts 20:7)

In fact, if we read Luke 24 carefully, we see the First Sunday Communion Service was given by the Lord on Resurrection Sunday itself.

"On the Road to Emmaus
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

19 “What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”


What is that "same day". Luk 24 makes clear it was Resurrection Sunday, the Lord's Day, the Day that He rose from the dead. God Bless.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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No scriptural reference? haven't you read the telling of the Passover meal where Jesus changed it from a Jewish experience to a Christian one?

And the NT Church was made up primarily of Jews who would have no notion of a Sunday morning, (They met on the Sabbath) or drinking a sip of wine or piece of bread.

Having studied the background to the NT Church they met daily for fellowship, prayer, the apostles teaching and for the breaking of bread which means to eat a meal. And when I say studied the background I mean reading 60 books on the subject from writers of all different persuasions and eras so I think I have got it pretty well covered.

And we read in 1 Corinthians 11 that it was done in the context of a MEAL. Not a religious ritual involving a sip of wine and a piece of bread. And it was not referred to as the Lord's Supper. And the passage makes it very clear they had gathered for a meal, not a sip of wine and piece of bread.
So, according to your conclusion, Paul taught the gentile believers in Corinth to celebrate Jewish holidays, like Passover, and then to add Christian liturgy to the days?

I think you understand how that is not correct.

I DO agree that communion, as celebrated in boxes on Sunday, is also not the pattern Paul wrote about.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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So, according to your conclusion, Paul taught the gentile believers in Corinth to celebrate Jewish holidays, like Passover, and then to add Christian liturgy to the days?

I think you understand how that is not correct.

I DO agree that communion, as celebrated in boxes on Sunday, is also not the pattern Paul wrote about.
No church in the NT was only gentile believers. if you read the scriptures carefully you will find that when they went to a new town, FIRST they went to the synagogue meaning they went to the Jews.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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And yet the Bible calls it the Lord's Supper. So you are just making up your own false narrative.
In the gospels it is first and foremost a Passover MEAL.

The first reference in Acts 2 it is a MEAL

in Corinthians it is a MEAL

In the books that write about the history of the New Testament Church it is a MEAL.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
371
83
Hi Must. Here is one passage, among many, showing Sunday Communion was already common in the Early Church.

"On the first day of the week we came together to break bread" (Acts 20:7)

In fact, if we read Luke 24 carefully, we see the First Sunday Communion Service was given by the Lord on Resurrection Sunday itself.

"On the Road to Emmaus
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

19 “What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

What is that "same day". Luk 24 makes clear it was Resurrection Sunday, the Lord's Day, the Day that He rose from the dead. God Bless.
They did not meet on Sunday and they didn't take communion. Every reference to Breaking bread means a meal. it only took me two years and the reading of 60 books to discover this so I will go with the research carried out by notable authors rather than one voice in the wilderness.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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544
113
India
It is also called the Marriage or Wedding Supper of the Lamb, i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Book of Revelation. In Heaven,

Rev 19:

6And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”