He Who Spares His Rod Hates His Son

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2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#62
The rod is for beating wickedness out of the child, not for simple mistakes that children make. Disobedience is a sin - forgetting to set an alarm clock is not. Children need boundaries and training, but this should be done with love. The wounds of a friend (or loving parent) are to be trusted.
I hear what you're saying, though I cannot say that I agree at this time.

If a "rod" is used to physically strike children (who do not rob banks, rape, murder, lust as do adults), what does the Bible suggest is used against adults who perform much greater and heinous crimes than children?

Matthew 18:3 NKJV - ". . . and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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#63
I am reminded of "Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me." :)

Here is a page on the rod and staff used by shepherds :D



Jesus is the Good Shepherd (y)
And your point ought to at least get us to consider that perhaps we are mistaken about the "rod."

I appreciate you so much, M!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#64
Adam and Eve had a law . . . DON'T EAT THAT FRUIT! In fact, they were told to not even touch the Tree of KOGAE, lest they die.
There is no record of God giving that instruction, either to Adam, or to Eve. In fact, it seems to be generally assumed that Adam instructed Eve, and either he added that caveat, or perhaps more likely, Eve herself added it while communicating with the serpent.

I liken it to Midrash, story telling, as related to what is known as "putting a hedge around" something for further protection.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#65
There is no record of God giving that instruction, either to Adam, or to Eve. In fact, it seems to be generally assumed that Adam instructed Eve, and either he added that caveat, or perhaps more likely, Eve herself added it while communicating with the serpent.

I liken it to Midrash, story telling, as related to what is known as "putting a hedge around" something for further protection.
No doubt you are a smart one. In this case, could you help me understand what you mean?

Genesis 3:3 KJV - "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#66
No doubt you are a smart one. In this case, could you help me understand what you mean?

Genesis 3:3 KJV - "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’” “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her.…

Yes, Eve said that, but there is no record of God to Adam, God to Eve, or Adam to Eve, having said that.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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#67
The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’” “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her.…

Yes, Eve said that, but there is no record of God to Adam, God to Eve, or Adam to Eve, having said that.
Okie Doke. But this means that I don't understand what the "offense" is. :)

Romans 5:15 NKJV - "But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many."
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#68
Okie Doke. But this means that I don't understand what the "offense" is. :)

Romans 5:15 NKJV - "But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many."
The offense? Adam and Eve disobeyed God in/by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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#72
I hear what you're saying, though I cannot say that I agree at this time.

If a "rod" is used to physically strike children (who do not rob banks, rape, murder, lust as do adults), what does the Bible suggest is used against adults who perform much greater and heinous crimes than children?
Ultimately, the sword (and death). Romans 13:3 - 4 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Matthew 18:3 NKJV - ". . . and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
Children do not earn their place in the family. They are born into it. The same as we, through faith in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ, by the grace of God.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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#73
Ultimately, the sword (and death). Romans 13:3 - 4 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Children do not earn their place in the family. They are born into it. The same as we, through faith in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ, by the grace of God.
Except that Gary Ridgway raped and murdered for over twenty years without being punished. No parent Waits 20 years to punish their child with me alleged Rod. Something seems out of balance, right?
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#74
Except that Gary Ridgway raped and murdered for over twenty years without being punished. No parent Waits 20 years to punish their child with me alleged Rod. Something seems out of balance, right?
Gary Ridgway is not a child of God.
He is a brute animal, lover of pleasure rather than a lover of God.

I wouldn't say that he is "living" as he currently is in solitary confinement. He eats, drinks, sleeps alone all day every day.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#75
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb 12:5-11 (KJV)
God scourges every son He receives

that word 'scourge' literally refers to having one's hands tied to a pole and being flogged across the back with a whip.
usually publically.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#76
If a "rod" is used to physically strike children (who do not rob banks, rape, murder, lust as do adults), what does the Bible suggest is used against adults who perform much greater and heinous crimes than children?
a sword.
i.e. a sharpened, metal rod.
Rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
(Romans 13:3-4)
 

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
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#78
That is the domestic view of scripture. When we think of a ruler in a classroom we think of a 12-inch stick. But the reason it’s a ruler is because it’s a standard and it rules the realm of measurement.

I wonder why, of all the definitions of “rod”, you chose a stick for punishment when one of the definitions is a “stick for ruling”.
"And spare not for his crying....". ....." Oh please dad(sob) it hurts when you measure me like that"!!!! ;)
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
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#80
Seems the "rod" is based on who is reading it. If its in the word then from Gen-Rev God said it. That being said I read this coming from a Jewish person.

"You see, the Torah was written to be understood by the audience that received it. It speaks about loading donkeys, oxen treading grain, and women delivering babies on birthing stools – things to which most of us cannot relate. It doesn’t talk about DNA or black holes or flatscreen TVs because these are concepts that would have been incomprehensible to the original recipients. Similarly, if King Solomon (the author of Proverbs) wanted to discuss disciplining children, he was going to use corporal punishment as his illustration because time-outs didn’t exist, and I suspected that neither did grounding or docking allowances.

First of all, striking another person is seriously frowned upon in Judaism. Deuteronomy 25:3 tells us that someone sentenced to the penalty of lashes may not be struck more than the designated amount (a maximum of forty lashes). First the Torah tells us that “the wicked one deserves lashes” (25:2), but then we are told that we may not exceed the court-imposed amount because if we do, “your brother will be degraded.” The Sifre, quoted by Rashi on 25:3, demonstrates that before the punishment is administered, the offender is considered “wicked.” After he has paid his penalty, he is once again called “your brother” and it is forbidden to strike him. If we’re not allowed to strike a convicted criminal more than absolutely necessary, it should go without saying that we may not strike someone who was not so sentenced by the courts – not even if their behavior bothers us!

Striking someone outside of the context of court-ordered whiplashes is actually considered evil. In Exodus 2:13, Moshe asks “the wicked one,” “Why will you strike your friend?’” The Talmud in Sanhedrin (58b) points out that the person is called wicked just for raising his hand, even though he has not yet delivered a blow.

The Talmud in Moed Katan (17a) prohibits a parent spanking an older child, based on the principle that we may not do something that will cause others to sin (lifnei iver). The child might respond by cursing the parent or striking back – both serious sins – and the parent would be responsible for provoking that reaction. The Ritva (13th century) says that “older child” isn’t exhaustive. For sure one may not strike a child above the age of bar or bas mitzvah but, additionally, one may not even strike a younger child who is likely to retaliate in words or deeds. Rav Shlomo Wolbe (20th century) suggested that the cut-off for spanking would be age three........................

.........So, yes. “Spare the rod” literally means that we do our children a disservice if we permit them to run rampant. As King Solomon wrote, one who loves his children is quick to correct their behavior. But the “rod” part is literary license. Even if that meant a literal rod in King Solomon’s day (and I don’t know that it did), it ultimately means an appropriate form of correction in each generation. But whatever the case may be, harsher-than-necessary means are considered cruel and should therefore be avoided. "

Just a different look :) Sometimes we forget WHEN it was written.