Theology—beneficial or source of endless debating?

My point was that God began with Abraham by promising him a biological posterity in the form of a single nation. Later, He added the promise of "many nations" by extending his fatherhood to a spiritual fatherhood.

We know that was fulfilled through Christ, who has extended the faith of Israel to all nations. The once-limited outreach of God to Israel is no longer limited by nationality or people. Faith is now open to all nations without discrimination.

At the same time, it is still necessary for God to encase faith in specific nations that were promised to Abraham. This not only requires a multitude of nations, but it also requires participation by Abraham's national posterity, Israel.

Wrong. That is not KJV.

KJV says "seed" singular.

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." - Gen 17:7 KJV



The source manuscripts say "seed" singular.



Look at 1 Peter 2 where it talks about Christians existing as a holy nation. Look at the prophesy in Daniel that points to a kingdom in Christ.

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7 13-14 KJV

You'll notice in Acts 3 that Jews are counted among those blessed through Abraham and not referenced as the seed:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." - Acts 3:25-26 KJV



Many of them could be. But how would you know? Do you take their word for it? You could through genetic testing determine they are related through common ancestors, but how would you know that this ancestral commonality is through a Hebrew ancestor?

How would we know that the common ancestors weren't proselytes or Canaanites, etc.?

And what about historical Hebrews/Israelites/Jews that became apostates and later adopted other religions. Are they not natural descendants simply because human methods for genetic testing can't identify them?

If you're going to say "That never happened." On what grounds are you making that speculation?



By virtue of spirit, yes. Not by virtue of flesh. Your statement would be incorrect if you phrased it as "natural or spiritual"

We see in Rev 7 that specific numbers from the 12 tribes and that a multitude of others are there from all nations. We see that people will be saved from all nations. All kinds of "natural" lineages will be saved. All of them will be Abraham's seed through Christ and not by their own flesh/lineage.



Scripture points to a heavenly nation. Why are you so fixated on the concept that an earthly nation could possibly fulfil the promise? Earthly nations rise and fall and eventually the earth itself will fade away.



The promise, by virtue of prophesy also includes faithful stewards from all nations/ethnicities.

I think you are confusing the difference between being called and being chosen.

"For many are called, but few are chosen." - Mat 22:14 KJV

This goes back to the parable of the wedding banquet as a whole.

some Bible colleges dont just teach theology, they also have courses on APPLIED theology

Not sure as never been to Bible College (Ive been to Bible primary school) but I gather that is more hands on than simply lectures over a semester.

Secular colleges also teach theology but thats for people who dont believe yet still want to study God, to them God is unknown. So they will look at all aspects of divinity not just in the Bible. I dont think they discount the Bible just its one of many sources to find out about God.

For me if you want to know the truth you need to encounter God through Jesus. You dont necessarily need to do this by studying, However studying the Bible is actually something God approves of, as it brings us closer to Him. Because Jesus is the Word.

I have been providing it to you. And so I've struggled mightily to explain how what I'm seeing is answered by those passages. Once again...

Matt 21.43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Rom 9.7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”

You say you understand. And then you ask the same question over and over again. I do think you fail to understand!

GOD established HIS WAY since the Beginning in Genesis.

Nothing has changed to HIS WAY = Faith in HIS WORD

You can read all about it in the Gospel.

Best Place to start is Gospel of John.
PEACE

A lot of people havent read the Bible or think its too hard
Or they dont have access to one

Or even more, they cannot read or find a Bible in their own language

The Greeks were able to find God once the Old Testament was translated into Greek and they sought God. The New Testament was written in Greek. Before that they just speculated about the unknown God hence theology.

Greek was main language of the time...then it changed to Latin in western Europe, then English became prominent with the british empire which reached across the world

However there are just so many lanaguages that the Bible needs to be translated into each one. Before people can fully grasp what God has said.

Wrong. That is not KJV.

KJV says "seed" singular.

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." - Gen 17:7 KJV

Many of them could be. But how would you know? Do you take their word for it? You could through genetic testing determine they are related through common ancestors, but how would you know that this ancestral commonality is through a Hebrew ancestor?

We see in Rev 7 that specific numbers from the 12 tribes and that a multitude of others are there from all nations. We see that people will be saved from all nations. All kinds of "natural" lineages will be saved. All of them will be Abraham's seed through Christ and not by their own flesh/lineage.

Scripture points to a heavenly nation. Why are you so fixated on the concept that an earthly nation could possibly fulfil the promise? Earthly nations rise and fall and eventually the earth itself will fade away.

The promise, by virtue of prophesy also includes faithful stewards from all nations/ethnicities.
I think you are confusing the difference between being called and being chosen.
"For many are called, but few are chosen." - Mat 22:14 KJV
This goes back to the parable of the wedding banquet as a whole.

Please review carefully Post #182
PEACE

Yes, Israel is His chosen people and always will be

But the only person healed of leprosy before the advent of Christ was Naaman, a Syrian - by faith.

The promise by faith is sprinkled all over the OT. We could talk about the Gibeonites too for example

Please carefully read post #188. Thanks.

Sorry, this is a direct quote from this page: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17&version=NKJV
It's from the New King James Version...

Gen 17.7 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

Apparently, the New King James Versions sees no conflict between the old KJV "seed" and their revised version "descendants." The "seed," singular, is a composite singular word, indicating a plural entity, such as a corporate body of believers or a corporate body of heirs.



Nations are built from a common set of descendants who certainly include those who enter into the nation from without. The product of intermarriage is a distinct nation. In the case of Israel, that nation has already been established and need not require there all be biological heirs of Abraham. The nation was built in ancient times, and its people preserved through the Jews. Only Jews may start this nation again. But non-Jews may certainly become Israeli citizens.



There are natural and spiritual descendants, meaning both Israel and a multitude of nations. But those nations, to belong to Abraham, must have Christian constitutions. There must be a genuine spiritual people among them, determining the law for the land.



The whole reason I believe in natural nations is precisely because they've been fading away. The fact they have existed at all indicates it was God's desire to have them, both Israel under the Law and Christian nations later, after Christ. God wishes to have godly nations devoted to the faith of Abraham. They are all descendants of Abraham through Christ, his "seed," singular. But that "seed" also contains a composite singularity. Christ contains both the natural descendants of Abraham, which is Israel, and the many nations who will convert to faith and adopt a Christian constitution.



There is some confusion between the idea of natural nations and the sense of being a "spiritual nation."
1) Israel is the natural descendants of Abraham. But Israel is also intended to be "spiritual," ie a nation practicing the faith and obedience of Abraham.
2) Christian nations are not the natural descendants of Abraham. They are, however, spiritual descendants of Abraham through Christ.
3) Israel and Christian nations are all spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith in Christ. They are all "called" to be nations of faith, when they appear as such. Not all nations, however, appear as such. Some have remained pagan nations.

On the other hand, those nations called to be nations of faith are not always "chosen." That is, they sometimes fail and are temporarily rejected when those who fail to have faith and fail to obey lead the nation astray.

I do have some confusion over the "called" and "chosen" ideas in Scriptures. But I realize that not everybody in a Christian nation is God's elect. The nation itself is called to be a nation of faith, but not everybody has faith.

Please check out my post #188. Thanks.

The nation itself is called to be a nation of faith, but not everybody has faith.

i would add only this:

that is key

Genesis 17 is where He tells Abraham he will be the father of many nations - yet all of one singular seed
likewise there is one singular gospel, to the Jew first, and then also to the Gentile ((Romans 1:16))

Israel is never utterly forsaken. but the promise of salvation through faith has always been to all who believe. through the Jew, certainly, but through faith, through the Jew, to all who believe, of every tongue and nation. Jonah to Assyria, e.g. -- and even Abram was not an Israelite. Israel begins with Jacob - who was also saved by grace through faith, exactly as Ruth the Moabitess, ancestor of Jesus, was saved

i don't think the idea of a nation can be separated from the identity of its citizenry.

Putin is Putin, but Russia is Russia, not Putin
just like Trump was Trump, but America is America.

only difference being America is not yet autocratic.

let him be re-elected, and perhaps we will also hence become a dictatorship, as he wishes.
but even so, the people of America will not be accurately represented by Czar Trump any more than the people of Russia are truly represented by Czar Putin. in that case, a very loud and heavily armed minority will exercise rule over the majority. that's their goal.

political glory and power, articularly when extorted. doesn't equate with the will of the people writ large, though. not all israel is Israel.

i don't think the idea of a nation can be separated from the identity of its citizenry.

Putin is Putin, but Russia is Russia, not Putin
just like Trump was Trump, but America is America.

only difference being America is not yet autocratic.

let him be re-elected, and perhaps we will also hence become a dictatorship, as he wishes.
but even so, the people of America will not be accurately represented by Czar Trump any more than the people of Russia are truly represented by Czar Putin. in that case, a very loud and heavily armed minority will exercise rule over the majority. that's their goal.

political glory and power, articularly when extorted. doesn't equate with the will of the people writ large, though. not all israel is Israel.

You are under a dictatorship now.
Republicans and Democrats are working together behind closed doors undermining the Constitution and by re-defining it.

Do not change the words, just the definition/meaning/intent of those words.

I realize that a country is not just its leader. But my point was that God promised Abraham *nations of faith.* That doesn't mean every citizen of a Christian country has to have genuine faith or practice true Christianity. What is required to fulfil this promise is to have a nation with a Christian constitution with a significant number of true, practicing Christians identifying it as such.

We had the mantle of theocracy passed from Israel in the OT to Roman society in the NT. This is a reality, despite the fact Rome was divided, corrupt, and flawed, and in fact fell.

However, the reality is that Roman society became European society, or European Civilization, which has largely been Christian in history. It has evolved into many Christian nations, just as God promised to Abraham.

I happen to believe God's promise encompasses the Millennial Kingdom, in which Israel and these Christian nations will be restored. The fulfillment, however, does not require that every citizen of a Christian state be a genuine Christian or practice true Christianity. Again, it only requires the constitution and a significant number of true, practicing Christians.

I believe God wants to save not just the individual, but also the society. He is the God of the Kingdom, and not God of the island, or God or the monastery or God of the lone prophet in the wilderness. He wants the prophet to turn the people back to God to live in just and compassionate societies where He can dwell in His people, giving them life, love, and the hope of eternity.

But I'm a realist as well as a Premillennialist. I believe that nations in the present age, including Christian nations, always fall. Sin infects a society, spreads, and then the wicked take over and dominate, suppressing the righteous. Christ will come back to remedy this.

well, the Kingdom of God isn't a democracy. it's absolute monarchy.

so no big objection from me
it's only the world, after all