Bible Vs Scientism

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MichaelBoll

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May 1, 2022
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If you mean metaphysical naturalism, I don't think anyone here has advocated for that position.
Hi Jocund. I am very much enjoying our discussion. I will respond as soon as I can. When I do, I'll probably break it up so we have a chance at resolving one point at a time. Right now we're writing novels back and forth to each other, which makes it easy for things to get overlooked, and for us to just talk past each other. Cheers
 

MichaelBoll

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May 1, 2022
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Where is this respectable adult discussion that you are referring to?
Well, right now I'm trying to have a respectable discussion about why the Bible says there are floodgates in heaven, and how that could possibly fit into the modern heliocentric model.

What do you think? Can it? If so, how?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Well, right now I'm trying to have a respectable discussion about why the Bible says there are floodgates in heaven, and how that could possibly fit into the modern heliocentric model.

What do you think? Can it? If so, how?
What is a modern heliocentric model? Since I don't know what it is I will have to say that I don't have a clue.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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It is interesting though, isn't it, that a day, whether it be literal or figurative, has always begun in darkness and concludes in light!? Glory goes to God for that!
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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You haven't tried to actually DISCUSS anything since you joined this thread. 😂 I have jumped through your last hoop, sir. It matters very little to me whether you stick around or not.
I don't do "hoops". I affirm good arguments, challenge bad arguments, and generally discuss with respect.

If you do, get busy on the point you feigned (but never actually made) concerning the word raqia.
I feigned nothing. You sidestepped the issue after feigning understanding of etymology.

Get busy on the moving atmosphere explanation that you feigned (but never actually gave).
I addressed this plainly and adequately.

Get busy explaining why Felix Baumgartner landed only 23 miles away from where he launched.
I said nothing about Baumgartner and have no obligation to do so. See Maxwel's post above.

Get busy explaining why the Bible says there are floodgates in heaven that can be opened to let the waters above heaven in - while such a thing would be impossible in the heliocentric model.
I called out your misrepresentation of Scripture, leaving nothing further to be addressed on that point.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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But yes, you called Dino out for his nonsense, and I loved seeing it. 👍👍👍
I am generally pretty-laid-back and pretty-much a live-and-let-live kinda guy.

I generally try to give the benefit of the doubt whenever it is the reasonable thing to do - which is most of the time.

I don't have anything against Dino or anyone else on here.

I try to be as friendly and cordial and sincere as I possibly can.

I do my best to respect the site owner and mods. - and everyone else.

I try to leave the "game players" to their games and not get mixed up in it.

However, I am not afraid to speak up if I think something needs to be said.

I do not go looking for trouble and the kind of "petty crap" that seems to occur here perpetually.

I would much rather like to think that a group of born-again Christians could have decent discussions without the "petty crap" continually plaguing every thread.

Sometimes, I decide to "just let things go" when I do not think it is worth going down that path...

I am not worried in the slightest about the responses of others - I know the Lord is going to straighten it all out when He comes.

If the Lord will require an account of every idle word, He will also require an account of every typed and posted word in these forums.
 
Jul 2, 2022
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I didn't make clear what I was asking you. You said the question (of star trails/heliocentrism) was ANSWERED by Copernicus.

I'm asking what Copernicus' answer was, and how his answer was verified.

The answer to my question is: Copernicus' answer was to create a mathematical model in which the wandering stars (you call them "planets") moved around the sun in circular orbits. His model was never verified, but instead debunked because actual observations from the earth put these "planets" at different places in the sky than they would have been if they had circular orbits.

Then Keppler got involved with his own mathematical model - which changed them to elliptical orbits - to solve the failure of Copernicus' model.

Keppler's mathematical equations produced more questions than answers... the majority of which were answered with the baseless claim, "A meteor impact must have somehow, at some time, did it." It has many other problems too - and has never been verified. It is just a mathematical model that we were all indoctrinated into believing as fact from the time we were in kindergarten.
Jesus used analogies/parables to demonstrate to people what the real value of life is. The same goes for enjoying our solar system surroundings and how we see things from an Earth that turns daily and runs a circuit of the Sun.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

In that sequence of images, the slower moving Jupiter and Saturn further out from the central Sun are being overtaken by the faster moving Earth.

The analogy is a traffic roundabout where a faster moving car in an inner lane sees slower moving cars in outer lanes fall behind in view as they are being overtaken.

In our journey through life, we pick up the Eternal in our nature and delight in those things which make our life possible, such as our parent central star or the motions of the planet which give us the day/night and seasonal cycle. I share that joy with St Francis-

http://www2.webster.edu/~barrettb/canticle.htm
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Science vs truth
law vs facts
science is not complete without truth or the law. Science is a method of study, not a law unto itself. There was a time science told us the world was flat, and babies in the womb were not alive until a certain trimester. by science the earth was very old 50 years ago but now it is younger. Science is not an absolute truth. FACTS ARE a weaker form of truth.
 

MichaelBoll

Active member
May 1, 2022
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Well, right now I'm trying to have a respectable discussion about why the Bible says there are floodgates in heaven, and how that could possibly fit into the modern heliocentric model.

What do you think? Can it? If so, how?
What is a modern heliocentric model? Since I don't know what it is I will have to say that I don't have a clue.
Really? You don't know what the modern heliocentric model is? The one we were all taught in school?

Screenshot (399).png

Does the above model, in which the earth is one of many planets orbiting the sun in outer space, align with the Biblical teaching that heaven is a solid barrier, and has floodgates that can be opened to let water from above heaven fall to the earth? Yes or no, please?
 

MichaelBoll

Active member
May 1, 2022
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I don't do "hoops". I affirm good arguments, challenge bad arguments, and generally discuss with respect.
I don't think you know what it means to "challenge bad arguments". To be sure, you have claimed that my arguments are bad, or that I am misunderstanding something, or that I am making a logical fallacy, etc. But making unsupported claims that I am wrong - simply because you say so - is certainly not a "challenge" to any of my arguments.

For example...

You sidestepped the issue after feigning understanding of etymology.
The implication is that the etymology of raqia has some bearing on this discussion - in particular, my understanding of the translation of that word as "firmament", and my understanding that it refers to heaven being a solid barrier. But your implication isn't a challenge, Dino. An actual "challenge" requires evidence of your own that clearly refutes my understanding. I don't suppose you have any of that to offer, do you?

Get busy on the moving atmosphere explanation that you feigned (but never actually gave).
I addressed this plainly and adequately.
When? Where? Please quote your previous explanation of HOW and WHY the atmosphere moves along with the spinning earth.

I said nothing about Baumgartner and have no obligation to do so.
You have no obligation to utter a single word here. But when you DO make a baseless claim that I am wrong about something, and then I make an ACTUAL challenge to your bad argument by citing a particular example that exposes it as flawed, one would think that you would WANT TO stand and defend your argument - or acknowledge that it was flawed. Claiming that you have no obligation to even address the thing that shoots down your argument exposes your previous claim that I was the one who was wrong as erroneous.

I called out your misrepresentation of Scripture, leaving nothing further to be addressed on that point.
When? Where? I think you are misunderstanding the idiom "called out". It means to EXPOSE someone as being wrong. You seem to think it's literal, as if you can simply call out the words, "You are wrong!" - and the other person has been successfully refuted.

Bottom line, Dino... you'll have to show some actual facts and evidence that clearly DEMONSTRATE how I am wrong before anyone takes your declarations of victory seriously. Bold proclamations that are lacking evidence are nothing more than the clanging of a cymbal.
 

MichaelBoll

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May 1, 2022
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https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

In that sequence of images, the slower moving Jupiter and Saturn further out from the central Sun are being overtaken by the faster moving Earth.
Concerning the time lapse that you linked... I'm making no assertion one way or the other, but just out of curiosity, would it be possible to artificially create a black screen with white dots moving across it? A simple Yes or No will suffice.
 

MichaelBoll

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May 1, 2022
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Science is a method of study, not a law unto itself... Science is not an absolute truth.
Correct. Science is the gathering of data. Science doesn't "say" anything at all - one way or the other.
 
Jul 2, 2022
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This is for Christians.

There is from a satellite tracking with the Earth around the central Sun with a camera focused on the stationary star at the centre of all planetary motions.

https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

Scroll the dates forward and the faster moving Mercury, the planet closest to the Sun, will be seen moving from right to left as seen from a slower moving Earth. The time lapse from the satellite is currently observing Mercury coming into view as it passes behind the Sun as predicted a number of days ago-

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

God gives to others the same gift he gives to me so long as they use that gift to enjoy creation as inspiring/spiritual. What I have shown my fellow Christians is new just as satellites are new so hope some delight in this perspective.
 

MichaelBoll

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May 1, 2022
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If you mean metaphysical naturalism, I don't think anyone here has advocated for that position.
“You will understand that my (atheism) was inevitably based on what I believed to be the findings of the sciences; and those findings, not being a scientist, I had to take on trust—in fact, on authority.” - C. S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy.
That is my definition of Scientism, Jocund. For example...

Science: You and I observe lights in the night sky that appear to move across the sky over the earth, and appear in the same locations a year later.

One interpretation: The lights are giant fireballs, and it is the earth that spins underneath them.

Empirical evidence for the claim: Non-existent.

Scientism: Taking it on trust or authority that this particular interpretation of the observation is an unequivocal FACT - despite the lack of empirical evidence.

In the terms of C. S. Lewis: The FINDINGS that many people take on TRUST are misconstrued as science itself. They are not. Science is the gathering of data, and the body of data itself. Nothing more, nothing less. Scientism - as defined by the OP - is the faith-based acceptance of the FINDINGS (ie: certain interpretations by certain flawed men) as fact.

Hopefully that helps. If not, too bad. That is my definition of Scientism, and the one that will be used by me throughout this thread.

My goal is not to spend hours continually discussing my definition of Scientism after it has already been presented adequately enough that any rational person can understand how I am defining it. My goal is to discuss how these non-empirical interpretations of flawed men (ie: Scientism) and the Bible blatantly contradict each other.

You have been arguing that they don't contradict each other. Fantastic. That's where our discussion will go from here.
 

MichaelBoll

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MichaelBoll

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Yes. Light itself was created on day one - and is in fact the mechanism for there to BE a day one. It was the creation of light, and the separation of that light from the darkness, that constituted a "day" on earth.
Let's walk through this slowly, until this one issue has been resolved. Then we can move on to other issues. Let's start with how God explained it...

Genesis 1:2... Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

I understand "the deep" and "the waters" to be the blob of waters from which the earth would eventually be formed.

2 Peter 3:5... But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Do you understand it the same way? If not, how do you understand "the deep" and "the waters"? What do those phrases refer to in your understanding, Jocund?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Really? You don't know what the modern heliocentric model is? The one we were all taught in school?

View attachment 241403

Does the above model, in which the earth is one of many planets orbiting the sun in outer space, align with the Biblical teaching that heaven is a solid barrier, and has floodgates that can be opened to let water from above heaven fall to the earth? Yes or no, please?
No, I am not familiar with that term helicentric'. I prefer the term solar system but that's just me. Where is mentioned specifically in the bible that states heaven is a solid barrier?
 

MichaelBoll

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May 1, 2022
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No, I am not familiar with that term helicentric'.
Heliocentric means sun-centered... as in the sun is the focal point of our system, not the earth.

Where is mentioned specifically in the bible that states heaven is a solid barrier?
Gen 1:6-8... And God said, “Let there be a firmament between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” So God made the firmament and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so. God called the expanse “heaven.”

The firmament that God named "heaven" supports the waters above heaven...

Psalm 148:4... Praise Him, you heaven of heavens, And you waters above heaven!

That indicates something solid. There's also the Hebrew word itself, which refers to an object that has been beaten into a shape with a tool. It comes from a root word that refers to the action of beating the material into that shape or object. Here are a few examples of the root word in the Bible...

Exo 39:3... And they beat the gold into thin sheets and cut it into threads...

Num 16:39... the bronze censers... were hammered out as a covering on the altar...

Jer 10:9... Silver is beaten into plates...

The word is also used in a verse that leaves little doubt about the firmament...

Job 37:18... Have you, with Him, beaten out heaven, strong as a cast metal mirror?

But I'm particularly asking you about the Biblical claim that heaven has floodgates that can be opened to allow the waters above heaven to fall to the earth, and then closed to stop those waters from falling to the earth...

Genesis 7:11... In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life... the floodgates of heaven were opened.

Genesis 8:2... ...the floodgates of heaven were closed, and the rain from heaven was restrained.

Does this Biblical teaching align with the solar system that you believe in?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I don't think you know what it means to "challenge bad arguments". To be sure, you have claimed that my arguments are bad, or that I am misunderstanding something, or that I am making a logical fallacy, etc. But making unsupported claims that I am wrong - simply because you say so - is certainly not a "challenge" to any of my arguments.

For example...

The implication is that the etymology of raqia has some bearing on this discussion - in particular, my understanding of the translation of that word as "firmament", and my understanding that it refers to heaven being a solid barrier. But your implication isn't a challenge, Dino. An actual "challenge" requires evidence of your own that clearly refutes my understanding. I don't suppose you have any of that to offer, do you?
I don't need to present evidence to bolster your assertion. You failed completely to answer my challenge. I didn't say anything about raquia; I addressed the word firmament. You sidestepped it. Either you did so deliberately, or you really don't know the issues.

Bottom line, Dino... you'll have to show some actual facts and evidence that clearly DEMONSTRATE how I am wrong before anyone takes your declarations of victory seriously. Bold proclamations that are lacking evidence are nothing more than the clanging of a cymbal.
Yawn.
 
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Scientism - as defined by the OP - is the faith-based acceptance of the FINDINGS (ie: certain interpretations by certain flawed men) as fact.
This de facto makes you a proponent of Scientism by the way you phrased your own definition.

The findings you have placed faith in are interpretations of flawed men. These interpretations include the purported meaning of scriptural passages and their alleged contradictions with modern scientific models.

Science: You and I observe lights in the night sky that appear to move across the sky over the earth, and appear in the same locations a year later.

One interpretation: The lights are giant fireballs, and it is the earth that spins underneath them.
If this is an allusion to astronomy, it would certainly be the case that the available empirical information is consistent with the model. There are aspects of educated guesswork and filling in the blanks by inference, but on closer observations (more refined data) we can make more accurate assessments with more certainty.

Genesis 1:2... Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

I understand "the deep" and "the waters" to be the blob of waters from which the earth would eventually be formed.

2 Peter 3:5... But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water
"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." - 2 Peter 3:5-7 KJV

There are diferrent approaches that can be taken with Gen 1:2 & 2 Peter 3:5.

1) Gen 1:2 could be entirely figurative, as there is no such thing as literal formless water or any other literal formless localized thing. The only thing that can be literally formless is something that is omnipresent.

2) This could be a description of different kinds of masses being transmuted out of water.

3) This could also be a description of physical forms emerging from water, out of solution.

4) Peter's "water" isn't talking about H2O, but the water of life, aka the Holy Spirit. And the following verse isn't talking about Noah's flood.

5) 2 Pet 3 is just a description of the separation of land and water and isn't informative of anything specific in terms of creation chronology.

6) Something other, because the first five interpretations aren't exhaustive.

I see your interpretation as some kind of type 2). It's possible but not necessary.

Do you understand it the same way? If not, how do you understand "the deep" and "the waters"? What do those phrases refer to in your understanding, Jocund?
If you are following from interpretation 2), I see your way as a possible interpretation. I still see it as a mystery for precisely what is meant by some of the creation account. If you are suggesting it is not a mystery because you feel that your interpretation would be necessarily true (as the only possible case) then we would have a different understanding.

To point out the broader strokes, this is my understanding of your flow of thought here:

A) scripture is necessarily true
B) scripture verse X necessarily means XYZ
C) popular scientific models are necessarily mutually exclusive to XYZ
D) therefore popular scientific models are necessarily wrong

My contention is with point B) (and therefore also the conclusion in D). And the only corrections I would make are to change the "necessarily" in B) and D) to "possibly".

I think the moment this is brought into focus, if you agree that there are other possible interpretations than the ones you hold, it follows that we should first determine the range of possible interpretations, and from there determine which possible interpretations feel compelling or uncompelling (and why).

If it is possible that God created everything using evolution, etc. it is then up to the person rejecting evolution to explain why they feel it is uncompelling. Do they feel that dinosaur bones and erosion lines disagree with the conclusion that evolution happened? Then that in itself is a practice in your definition of "scientism" by asserting observational assumptions as fact. Weighing the evidence with bad methodology is still a practice of trying to weigh the evidence.

There is a flip side requiring an explanation for why evolution should be considered compelling/trustworthy. The answer usually comes back to 1) the models are esteemed to be consistent with available empirical data, 2) the scientific culture is considered to be reliable insofar as there is no apparent political meddling, 3) the test results that establish the data are hypothetically repeatable.

It's often a YEC position to accept speciation/micro-evolution as a concept, but to reject macro-evolution. Macro-evolution as a concept is just micro-evolution projected backwards.

It gets interesting because if we look at the last part of 2 Peter 3:4 "all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." Which means that by scripture, if we accept micro-evolution we should also accept macro-evolution. Or at least, there can be a compelling case within scripture to make this observation.

If there is sufficient empirical evidence to suggest speciation and micro-evolution, it follows that macro-evolution is an extrapolation from that data (the model has empirical support).

The choices to diminish that perspective are either try to necessitate some interpretation where: 1) billions of years worth of happenings was somehow impossible, or; 2) that the method for creation was necessarily spontaneous.