Before Abraham was, I am

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AndrewMorgan

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Jul 10, 2022
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#1
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#2
Ex 3:14 - καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῗς τοῗς υἱοῗς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

The first part here usus the same expression in Greek as Christ used 'ἐγώ εἰμι'. I am.

The second part you are referring to makes no difference really as it is God who is doing the sending.. The one true God. The ἐγώ εἰμι (I Am).


It is apparent that Jesus' self understanding of himself is that he is YHWH (God).

YHWH's self identification in the first half of Ex 3:14 as 'I Am' is the God who sends Moses. (second half).

Therefore Jesus makes the claim that he is the eternal God who called Moses, appeared to Him and sent him. The Jews certainly did not mistake Jesus claim to being YHWH. Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy Cf. Lev 24:16.

As a side note - it is interesting that when the OT is quoted in the NT it predominately quotes from the LXX. Greek translation of the OT. From Jesus through to Paul etc.
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
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#3
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

The Word was the one that was doing the talking, which is Jesus. He is the Son of God correct? In the beginning the Word was known as Yahweh or Jehovah. When the Word came in the flesh He took upon Himself His Fathers name which is Jesus. There was no Father and Son in the beginning it was only God.

But let's take a look at; (John 8:56-59) When Jesus was speaking to some of the Jews saying (v.56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him (Jesus) thou are not yet fifty years old and hast thou seen Abraham. Now listen closely how Jesus answered. Jesus said unto them verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was I am. I am, not I will be, or I was, but I am. That's forever present, the one who became known as Jesus was always around, he is the member of the Godhead that became known as the Son. In the beginning there was no Father or Son just God, or Godhead or God family, God is translated from the Hebrew word Elohim, a uniplural word. Like the word man, it covers the species male and female. (Gen. 1:27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM.

So we are all members of the man family, the woman (whom Adam named) is the female species of the man family, let's continue. (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Those are absolutes "No MAN" and AT ANY TIME" (Ex. 24:9-11) then went Moses, and Aaron, Na-dab, and A-bi'hu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. (v.10) And they saw the GOD OF ISRAEL; and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (v.11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also THEY SAW GOD. And did eat and drink. Now do we have a contradiction in the bible? No, we are going to let the bible interpret the bible. (John 5:37, 39, 43) (v.37) And the father himself which hath sent me, have borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice (the father's) at any time nor seen his shape. So who was it that the 74 elders saw in the mount. None other than the one who became known as Jesus. The one who became known as the Father does not deal with flesh, never has never will. Jesus told you with his own words, (v.39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. The scriptures are from Genesis to Malachi. Jesus told you with his own mouth. (v.43) I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. If Jesus came in his Father's name, then what was Jesus' name before he came in the flesh? It was GOD ALMIGHTY! (Ex. 6:2-3) (v.2) And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord: (v.3) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JE-HO'-VAH was I not known to them.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#4
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
The title of this thread clearly tells you that Jesus is " I AM" or "I AM THAT I AM". So why is there any question? Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Period.
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#5
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
first of all, why use a translation (Greek) when you have the actual Hebrew?

now this is crucial for this question.

Exodus 3:14 Elohim answered Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” Then He said, “You are to say to Bnei-Yisrael, ‘I AM’ has sent me to you.”

John 8:58 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, before Abraham was, I AM!”
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#6
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
When Jesus said " I AM," he the Pharisees did not pick up stones because he said I exist. they picked them up because HE made HIMself one with GOD
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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Oregon
cfbac.org
#7
.
Jesus often spoke to his Jewish countrymen as if they were supposed
already be in the know, prior to his arrival, that Messiah would be a
supernatural composite of divinity and humanity. Apparently the rabbis
of that day were doing a very poor job of teaching their people the Old
Testament.

NOTE: One of the first things that Jesus did, after his crucified dead body
was restored to life, was bring his followers up to speed with the Old
Testament. (Luke 24:27 & Luke 24:45)
_
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
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#8
The Hebrew words for I am that I am ---

ehye 'ăšer 'ehye

"I Am that I Am" is a common English translation of the Hebrew phrase אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎‎ ('ehye 'ăšer 'ehye; pronounced [ʔehˈje ʔaˈʃer ʔehˈje])– also "I am who I am", "I will become what I choose to become", "I am what I am", "I will be what I will be", "I create what(ever) I create", or "I am the Existing One".


My view on I Am -----
God is the existing one ---no one created God He always was and always will be ------the Word who is Jesus was always with God so the word is also the Existing one ----and Jesus who is God the Son is the creating one ---God the Father speaks the Word which in Hebrew is Davar and the word who is God the Son Creates what God the Father speaks -----so God the Father is in God the Son and God the Son is in God the Father -----

People also ask
What does Dakar mean in Hebrew?
Davar means "word," and it also means "thing." This fact reflects a deep facet of a Jewish world view. Words are the creative energy of the world. God spoke, and through words brought the universe into being.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
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#9
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
Given you are "unsure" of your spiritual status, you seem to be doing a lot of comparisons of various theological views.

Are you working on that "unsure" thingie? Mayhaps, should you resolve that, you will begin to understand far more than you seem to now regarding Scripture.

(just saying)
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
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#10
Given you are "unsure" of your spiritual status, you seem to be doing a lot of comparisons of various theological views.

Are you working on that "unsure" thingie? Mayhaps, should you resolve that, you will begin to understand far more than you seem to now regarding Scripture.

(just saying)

Maybe.
Given you are "unsure" of your spiritual status, you seem to be doing a lot of comparisons of various theological views.

Are you working on that "unsure" thingie? Mayhaps, should you resolve that, you will begin to understand far more than you seem to now regarding Scripture.

(just saying)

Maybe.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#11
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
More than just a statement of identity...

John 18:4-6 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
 

AndrewMorgan

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Jul 10, 2022
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#12
In the Greek Septuagint, when asked by Moses to state His identity, God said "I am the 'One' or 'Being'. Tell them The 'One' or the 'Being' sent you" - NOT - "I am sending you". I'd like someone commenting to address the relevance of Jesus' "Before Abraham was, I am" response with reference to the stated exchange between Moses and God.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
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#13
I Am = existence, as in self existing, not created. Also the source of existence. That nothing else actually exists but is created and receives its source from the Existent.

When Jesus use the term, He was claiming and revealing His nature as the one from which existence comes and as the one who spoke to Mose.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#14
In the Greek Septuagint, when asked by Moses to state His identity, God said "I am the 'One' or 'Being'. Tell them The 'One' or the 'Being' sent you" - NOT - "I am sending you". I'd like someone commenting to address the relevance of Jesus' "Before Abraham was, I am" response with reference to the stated exchange between Moses and God.
When God said
"I AM" to Moses God was telling Moses He God is the Self-existing One. When Jesus said Before Abraham " I AM" was telling the Pharisee's HE Christ has always existed Just as God has always. El Shaddai is what God told Abraham HE is God almighty. If you want to know who God is, you do not go to Moses you look to Jesus and then to Abraham.
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
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#15
When God said
"I AM" to Moses God was telling Moses He God is the Self-existing One. When Jesus said Before Abraham " I AM" was telling the Pharisee's HE Christ has always existed Just as God has always. El Shaddai is what God told Abraham HE is God almighty. If you want to know who God is, you do not go to Moses you look to Jesus and then to Abraham.

I'm still confused! When God spoke to Moses, He said He was "The One" or "The Being". I don't know what else is to be made of that. "When Jesus said Before Abraham was I AM was telling the Pharisees He Christ and always existed." Whoa! How d'you get that from that verse?! Maybe it can be discerned from somewhere else in the Bible, but I can't see it from that verse. The point is: According to what is generally accepted as the genuine Greek Testament, God said ''I am the 'One' or 'Being'" - NOT "I AM". So I don't understand what relevance Jesus' response in the NT has, when He just seems to be saying He's lived since the time of Abraham. I don't see how "I AM relates
to God.
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#16
When God said
"I AM" to Moses God was telling Moses He God is the Self-existing One. When Jesus said Before Abraham " I AM" was telling the Pharisee's HE Christ has always existed Just as God has always. El Shaddai is what God told Abraham HE is God almighty. If you want to know who God is, you do not go to Moses you look to Jesus and then to Abraham.
Agreed!
God is "always" in the state of I AM! He's the only God who knows the END from the BEGINNING!

i like to ask people the question, has it ever occurred to you that NOTHING has ever occurred to God? because God knows everything.
it cracks me up when people pray, they pray like they are informing God of something He does not already know.

God, do you know what they did to me?
hahahahaha He knew before they did it!

He is I AM and is always I AM!
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
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#17
I Am = existence, as in self existing, not created. Also the source of existence. That nothing else actually exists but is created and receives its source from the Existent.

When Jesus use the term, He was claiming and revealing His nature as the one from which existence comes and as the one who spoke to Mose.

Re. Your first block:- ??!! You get all that from "I am"?! Re. your second block:- What an extrapolation!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#18
In the Greek Septuagint, when asked by Moses to state His identity, God said "I am the 'One' or 'Being'. Tell them The 'One' or the 'Being' sent you" - NOT - "I am sending you". I'd like someone commenting to address the relevance of Jesus' "Before Abraham was, I am" response with reference to the stated exchange between Moses and God.
it’s important to understand when Jesus was baptized and received the spirit from heaven ot was then God speaking the word

“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is God in the flesh , this only occurred for his short lifetime on earth the gospel is a record of when this happened

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God is a spirit

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel os when he was made a man for a short time dwelt among us and made himself known finally to mankind and the. Sent this record out to all
People beginning at Jerusalem after his resurrection

jesus word is Gods word because he is God

the wording of “the one God sent “ is a reference to the Old Testament constantly saying “ I will send you a prophet who will speak all
My words of requirement to you him you have to hear and accept “ it goes as far back as Moses law

“The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; ( Moses is speaking )

unto him ye shall hearken; I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, ( what he said to Moses ) and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:15, 18-19‬

it’s only later that we find out God himself became a man and fulfilled these promises because there was no other one to send who was worthy No one could save us so he did it himself

Later we can see what’s happened and how this is going to come to pass

“Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:15-17, 20-21‬

as we move forward in scripture it comes together more and we see how Jesus has fulfilled it

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because Jesus is the fulfillment of what Moses had said about sending the Christ to speak his true and required words we know this because Peter co firms it when he receives the holy ghosts revelation

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-26‬ ‭

Jesus was sent by God , this is spoken this way so people understand he is the fulfillment t of the one God has always promised would come the messiah , the son of God ( made flesh ) and afterwards returned to his heavenly glory the glory of the one and only God

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

part of Jesus becoming a man is to give man an example of a perfect man and how he relates to God he did what he did formoir benefit Ike he was in the flesh he had to become a subject like we are to God in order to teach us about the father and son relationship God desires with us he is our example of Gods children if he hadn’t lived as a man ot would t have fulfilled anything for man

ots important to know God became a man and made himself subject on our behalf he became like we are , so we could believe and become like he is

the way to grasp
It is to look at the Bible like a three part plan God appears in the ot but it’s a raging fire and darkness and no one can see him but the one chosen mediator

the gospel God appears as the son , an example of man and what man is truly created to be

and in The epistles God is the holy ghost operating within the believers

he’s always present and he’s always god th same one who created all things he foret had hidden himself because of mans sin , then he manifest himself to
Make himself known to mankknd and to save them from that sin that had seperate d man and god

then finally he offers the spirit of Gods son , his own spirit to believers that he himself should dwell on our hearts and mknds through faith in the truth of the gospel when our God proved his love for us laying down his eternal glory and taking up the infirmity of sinful man , bearing it on his shoulders suffering and dying in e sinners olace ll so we can have a new and clean relationship with him

and see him not as an unknowable mysterious diety somewhere high on a throne , but so we can truly know him what his thoughts are and what his ways are what he desires of us and what he’s warning us about , and we can understand how deep his love truly is for mankind no how very much he’s done to redeem us from our own transgressions

Jesus is God the gospel records a time when he had become man and made himself as one of us I lord we to give us hope of salvation and life
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#19
I'm still confused! When God spoke to Moses, He said He was "The One" or "The Being". I don't know what else is to be made of that. "When Jesus said Before Abraham was I AM was telling the Pharisees He Christ and always existed." Whoa! How d'you get that from that verse?! Maybe it can be discerned from somewhere else in the Bible, but I can't see it from that verse. The point is: According to what is generally accepted as the genuine Greek Testament, God said ''I am the 'One' or 'Being'" - NOT "I AM". So I don't understand what relevance Jesus' response in the NT has, when He just seems to be saying He's lived since the time of Abraham. I don't see how "I AM relates
to God.
of course you are confused, when God spoke to Moses, He spoke in the LANGUAGE we see Moses later on write the Torah. in the HEBREW, I AM = (אֶהְיֶה) = I AM or I WILL BE = always the SAME from End to Beginning and Beginning to End as in NEVER CHANGES!

STOP using translations when you have access to the [[((VERY LANGUAGE))]] God spoke to Moses in!
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#20
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
It squares perfectly. They are one. Jesus was there at creation, and He will be seated upon the Judgement Throne at the end. Three in person, but one in spirit.

Luke 9:35
“And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.”

Philippians 2:6
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”


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