Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

Wow. Well, you're a very lucky person to have the power of choice. I, however, depend upon the Lord for change. I had to beg God, for most of my life, that He would change me. I had no "will power" to stop doing the things that I was doing. In total agony, I would cry and weep, begging that the Lord would take away from me my propensity towards certain addictions. I was hopeless, completely unable to stop doing the things I was doing.

What about you? Have you ever prayed that God would change something about your character that you couldn't change yourself?

With your ability to choose, I wouldn't imagine that you need the Lord for anything.

As for Love equaling "free will" I would say that every good parent wishes that they could determine the thoughts of their child, to place them on a right and better path. They feel this way because they Love their child. Because of their Love for their child, they wish they could control them . . . but no parent can do such a thing.

Our God, however, can grab hold of our thoughts:

John 6:44 NLT - "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up."

Well, that's what happened to me . . . and I am thankful.

So far, I've offered over eighty passages that deal with "free will." What do you think of them?

Day 194 of the timeline, chronological reading plan offers us an interesting idea that defies “free will.” Below is the passage:

Isaiah 10:7 NLT – “But the king of Assyria will not understand that he is my tool; his mind does not work that way. His plan is simply to destroy, to cut down nation after nation.”

Aren’t the words of the NLT interesting here? Assyria is the Lord’s “tool”? Think about that . . . if Assyria, or should we say the king of Assyria (Sennacherib), was causing chaos upon their own accord and without the “use” of God, how could they be considered a “tool” by the Lord if He, the Lord, were not directing the Assyrian’s step? Are we to say that the Lord does [not] direct the steps of people and even Nations? But, of course, He does, as we just read of this in Psalms 119:

Psa 119:133 NKJV – “Direct my steps by Your word, And let no iniquity have dominion over me.” - Jesus is that "Word" as we found in John chapter 1.)

And also, from Day 160 of the timeline, chronological reading plan:

Prov 20:24 NLT – “The LORD directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way?”

And what about Nations? Day 33, we found that the LORD had caused the Egyptians to look favorably on the people of Israel (Exo 11:3).

NLT – “(Now the LORD had caused the Egyptians to look favorably on the people of Israel. And Moses was considered a very great man in the land of Egypt, respected by Pharaoh’s officials and the Egyptian people alike).”

I rarely ever resort to reviewing “commentaries,” but in this instance, I felt it essential to do so, as this passage can be challenging to decipher. Therefore, Chuck Smith wrote the following regarding this set of passages:

“Now here’s an interesting thing. God says, “I’m going to use Assyria as the rod of my judgment to come down and to wipe out Samaria.” And yet, though Assyria is used as God’s rod of judgment because Assyria destroys God’s people, then God’s going to wipe out Assyria. They didn’t realize that they were being used of God in this and they began being lifted up in pride.”

Chuck acknowledges a translation that used the phrase, “I’m going to use Assyria as the rod of my judgment.” More, Chuck acknowledges that Assyria was, in fact, being used by God. It seems that Chuck’s point is that God was causing and making Assyria to become exceedingly powerful; thus, the Assyrians had become prideful regarding their prowess in battle and war.

As always, I am pointing out that this group of “people” was being controlled, if not influenced, beyond the scope of their own choice and free will. Why? Because the Lord our God was doing “things” for the Assyrians that they could not do for themselves if it were [not] for the Lord. And if it were not because of the Work of God, the Assyrians would [not] have done the things they were doing. God USED them. In other words, God was in control all along and knew exactly what He was doing from start to finish.

Question: Have you ever felt as though the Lord was compiling life scenarios for you? Have you ever felt as though the Lord was in control of your life circumstances so that you would learn . . . become a better person?

Prov 3:12 CSB – “. . . for the LORD disciplines the one he loves, just as a father disciplines the son in whom he delights.”

Heb 12:7 CSB – “Endure suffering as discipline: God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline?”

The only way that the Lord can "discipline" us is if He creates circumstances and environments that help to shape and mold our individual minds and lives.

God is all powerful and can force anyone.
If Gods will is righteousness, why is unrighteousness practised by people. If God wants all to be saved why does God let sin be practised.
If God wills us to be free from the bondage of sin why are we slaves?

I can't change my heart but a can choose to allow God to change it.
I relate to your problems, we are weak and unable to free ourselves from sin, but i did find that i could choose to ask God for help and draw closer to Jesus.

If there is no choice or free will = God is forcing us.

God allows us to choose sin and He also allows us to choose Him.
I can't do anything without Gods help. All good comes from God. But God will not force me to be righteous and force me to follow Jesus.

tms

This is human wisdom. Man is spiritually dead to God, and a slave to the devil. Jesus told some men Jn 6:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He said the lust of their father they WILL DO ! Does that sound like had a freewill not to do the lust of their father the devil ? All men by nature do the lust of the devil, they have no choice, their will isnt free to choose not to !

tms

Man naturally is a servant to sin, he cannot choose not to be Jn 8 34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Man has to be made free from being a servant of sin. Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

When God gives one spiritual life, they are made free from the servant of sin, nothing forced about it.

I relate to pauls experience
The flesh and the Spirit are fighting. The flesh in me is currupted by sin and wants to keep sinning. Lusts of the flesh. The moral part of me that is touched by God, wants to serve God.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is a fight. A wrestle. The hardest battle we all have to face. The battle against self.
By ourself we will fail but with God we can overcome.

By practicing a habit it becomes part of your character.
God wants to write His laws on our heart and will if we let Him.
Our part is to die. Put self to death so that Christ can rule.
We can't have two masters.
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I know this will generally turn into an Arminian vs Calvinist debate. Let me offer a bit of a different perspective if I may. What if a person is saved by a will captive of the Holy Spirit, and is damned of his own freewill?

Your Bible contains the verses that all of my Bible translations possess. For some reason, the members of this thread refuse to acknowledge these passages. And why? Because this would explain their behaviors, which is that the Devil remains as their Spiritual Father. But how can that be? EVERYONE here claims that they are True Christians, so the only way to "deal" with these passages, which clearly state that those who disobey are still held captive by the Devil to do his will . . . is to ignore them.

Thank you!!

Jesus actually goes on and on about this Spiritual Father, the Devil. He continued to say:

John 8:34, 38, 41, 44, 47 NIV - 34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. ... 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father." ... 41 You are doing the works of your own father." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." ... 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. ... 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

This is a massive problem, for those who believe they belong to God, they ALL would claim that they "see" just fine. They ALL claim that they "hear" just fine. They ALL claim that they can "walk" just fine. It is an inconceivable notion (to them) that they could be Spiritually blind, for all people Truly believe that they are free to choose and do whatever they like, even when they are imprisoned by the Devil "to do his will."

2 Timothy 2:26 CSB - "Then they may come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

If a person can release themselves from the Captivity of the Devil, then there is no need of Christ. If a person can release themselves fro the Captivity of the Devil, this means that a person is capable of Spiritually Circumcising the Curse of the Lord. And again, this means Christ is not necessary.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

Exactly. Anyone who is held "captive" by the Devil is not "free" to choose. This is the whole point of the Bible! To be set free, we have to be set free to "do" things that we previously were not free to do, say, or think. This is what Holy Transformation is about. But then again, WHO is actually able to tell of their Transformation story? Who has one? Who can talk about how God completely transformed them so that they would, more and more, reflect the Glory of God?

How many people, here at CC, actually possess a True Transformation story? Until a person has been Transformed, they ought to be terrified that they are still held captive by the Devil (TO DO HIS WILL).

TMS . . . Paul did not struggle in Romans 7. He is referring to his pre-Transformed life. He is referring to the time of his life that was pre Circumcision of the Heart. Paul's heart had been Circumcised, this is made clear in his writings in Colossians which I just posted above. Paul states that this Sinful Nature must be removed by Christ, so how could Paul still be infected by this Sinful Nature if he states that it had been removed? Paul is referencing his "Old Man" . . . But Paul is a "New Man" is has been set free.

Romans 7:24-25 NLT - "Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."

Above, Paul is trying to relate to the reader as he talks about his former way of life (that was dominated by sin). But after his experience with Christ on the Damascus road, he lives nearly a pure life. In fact, we only see him make one mistake, which was yelling at a high priest and stating that God will "strike him." Paul then apologizes for his mistake, though he was right! Other than this, Paul urges his readers to model themselves after him . . . 18 times in Scripture. Paul talks about how people witnessed how Righteous and Holy of a life he lived. If his life were dominated by sin, Paul's message would have been invalid, containing no credibility. But his life was credible because he was and is our greatest model of what it means to live for Christ.

The other issue that you're struggling with is understanding the Moral Law. ALL humans have the moral law, and this includes Gary Ridgeway, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Adolf Hitler. But what good did it to do for them? This Law exists so that no "man" is without excuse, for all know what is right and wrong. That is why Ridgeway, Dahmer, and Hitler all did their best to hide their crimes, for they all knew that they were abominations.

The Laws that actually SAVE a person are the Laws of the Spirit of Life. This is the fourth stage of the Law. First, we have pre-Law, then the Laws of Moses, then the Moral Law was given to all people, and then the Holy Elect will receive and live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life. These Laws are Effectual. These Laws are responsible for the changes that a person undergoes as they reflect, more and more, the Glory of God.

Romans 8:2 KJV - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

I beg of you to study these concepts. Eternal Life depends upon them and I a care about you.

Nah. I highly encourage people to stop talking about what others thought who lived many, many years ago. Let's come together and talk about what WE believe as we look at and ponder the Holy Scriptures. We don't need Luther, Calvin . . . not even modern-day commentaries. We have the Holy Spirit to teach us (if we are Son's and Daughters of Christ).

Well, if a person who claims to have free will, then it was during the time when Satan held that person captive. So if a person has freed will while being held captive of the devil, then it sounds to me like free will is not a good thing, but an evil thing. But what you're saying is True, which is that a person is controlled by the Holy Spirit (if they have the Spirit with them). And if a person doesn't have the Holy Spirit within them, then they do not belong to God at all.

Romans 8:9 NLT - 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

The reason why a person is no longer controlled by their Sinful Nature, is because it has been cut out and removed . . . which is what physical circumcision represents. What man goes from being physically circumcised to being uncircumcised? No one does it, for this flesh is ugly. This SIN is ugly, thus it is removed from a person's body . . . their life. Until a person understands the physical circumcision of Abraham, Scripture will always, ALWAYS be difficult to understand. Then again, every person here believes that they "understand." It is nearly impossible to convince anyone of anything . . . and this is how it is at every "christian" forum.

Matthew 7:23 NLT - "But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws."

Of course Jesus knew these people . . . He is their Creator! So what does He mean, that He never "knew" them? In this context, it means that Jesus did not Circumcise their Hearts. This is what it means to be "known" by Christ. They had not been "made alive."

Colossians 2:13 NLT - "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

I mostly agree with you. What I say about the human will not captive of the Holy Spirit is that it is corrupted and indeed evil.
Where we may disagree is that i dont agree with throwing out the faithful men of old. They too had the Holy Spirit, and offer much learning. However let us not throw out our own learning from the Holy Spirit either.

I think you're right, which is that we likely disagree. I have no reason to believe that those men of old actually understood the Gospels. Nor do I believe that they were controlled and led by the Holy Spirit.

Paul is speaking as a born again man. My comments is about the natural, unregenerate man, hes a slave to sin. No freewill not to be a slave to sin.

Good point, the unregenerate man is held captive by the devil, where freewill now 2 Tim 2:24-26

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

They are held captive to do his [the devils] will

Day 208 of the timeline, chronological reading plan offers a most remarkable comment made by God Himself. It is as follows:

Isaiah 45:21 NIV - "Declare what is to be, present it--let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

Over and over, in most of my posts, I acknowledge the Power of God. Without a doubt, we see a reference to this Power but once again . . . above. In reading the Old Testament, we consistently read of reminders of how Powerful God is, either by Supernatural influence or by simple reminder. Power . . . we must consistently think of how Powerful our God is.

As for the Scripture itself: God is clearly stating that what is happing to Israel had been foretold by Him, the Lord. If we feel that we "know" the Scriptures, we should then know that the Lord has predicted all of these events, including which Nations would be victorious and who would crumble in times of battle and war. The Lord even told Israel that in their plight for water and food, that He would cause them to think in a way that would make them think of killing their children, cooking them, eating them, and then hiding the remainder of the flesh for later consumption. Sure enough, this is exactly what Israel did, and sure enough, the world hated them for their disgusting acts.

"Normal" parents are willing to die for their children . . . not consume them. Clearly, Israel had been placed under the control of the Lord to think and act in the way God had foretold. Incredible. Throughout this thread, I have shown over and over again how the Lord is in control over people, even entire Nations, animals, and even the physical world of nature too. So think about this: Is it right that God would cause the Israelites, as a Nation, to cook, eat, and hide the remaining flesh of their family (ie children)?

If these people did such horrific acts based upon actual "free will", then I pray to God that none of us would fall victim to it. If that's "free will," then I would pray that God take away my will. And speaking of such? Do any of you, or have you in the past, prayed that God would take away your "free will"?

Could you clarify the difference, please?

To say a person has free will only means they have a free choice between available options.

Hi FreeGrace2,

A way to look at it is... Are your choices free from who you are (the will)?

Meaning freedom of the will (free will) is about "Being" (ontological). It refers to the nature or essence of a person.

What does the Bible say about the nature of man?

Once we realise that man's will, his nature/essence is in bondage to sin, we realize that although he makes free choices, these choices flow from his will, none of those choices are pleasing to God. Slaves to sin. With no interest in serving Christ as Lord.

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you clarify the difference, please?

To say a person has free will only means they have a free choice between available options.
OK, list the people where the Bible says God forced them.

If Gods will is righteousness, why is unrighteousness practised by people. If God wants all to be saved why does God let sin be practised.
If God wills us to be free from the bondage of sin why are we slaves?

I can't change my heart but a can choose to allow God to change it.
I relate to your problems, we are weak and unable to free ourselves from sin, but i did find that i could choose to ask God for help and draw closer to Jesus.

If there is no choice or free will = God is forcing us.

God allows us to choose sin and He also allows us to choose Him.
I can't do anything without Gods help. All good comes from God. But God will not force me to be righteous and force me to follow Jesus.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how thay can be. When I make a choice, it is about MY choice.

Then your definition is that "free will" defines your being. But everyone uses the phrase to apply to choices being made.

sinful, fallen.

One exception. Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

When Calvinists claim this verse is about God "gifting" faith to certain ones, or "the elect" as they love to describe themselves, they really lose a lot of credibility. The verse is clear. God is pleased when man believes and trusts Him. That simple.

And this verse also teaches that men do seek Him. And nothing about God choosing them to, or forcing them to, etc.

Of course no unbeliever would have any interest in serving Christ as Lord. That only comes after one is saved by grace through faith.

The Bible teaches that people REFUSE to believe. Acts 14:2, 19:9. This proves that man is able to understand the gospel and reject it.

Is it even possible to refuse to believe what you don't even understand? Of course not.

One has to understand something before they can either accept it or refuse to accept it.