Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

In discovering the word “destiny” found within many Bible translations, I was able to draw forth even more passages previously yet presented. Going back to Day 9 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, we find the below words from Job. Of course, it is reasonable to ask if Job felt that he had the free, unrestricted right to choose his life and the happenings within it:

Job 23:13-17 NLT – “But once he has made his decision, who can change his mind? Whatever he wants to do, he does. So he will do to me whatever he has planned. He controls my destiny. No wonder I am so terrified in his presence. When I think of it, terror grips me. God has made me sick at heart; the Almighty has terrified me. Darkness is all around me; thick, impenetrable darkness is everywhere.”

Isn’t it reasonable to suggest that now that Job has undergone such incredible hardship at the Hand of the Lord (the horrific events through chapter 23 that he has endured), he much more fully grasps his God’s Power and is thus subsequently terrified by it? I submit to “you” that when a person is chosen to have the Lord revealed to him or her in such a Powerful and Almighty way, they finally and firmly grasp what it means to possess True Fear of the Lord. Job isn’t necessarily terrified of God Himself, for Job Loves the Lord with all his heart, soul, and mind. Instead, Job is terrified by what the Lord is capable of doing to him . . . meaning that Job recognizes the Supreme, total, and utter Power of God to the degree that he realizes that there are no limits to what God can and cannot do.

Looking at the text above, Job states that when God has implemented a decision for a person’s life, those decisions are final, and no one possesses the Power to thwart them. Job advances this concept by stating that God will do to him, Job, whatever He, the Lord, has Planned to do. Even further, Job presses on to say that the Lord controls his destiny. And when Job makes such a statement, isn’t he acknowledging that he, Job, is NOT in control over his fate? If God controls the destiny of Job, by default, Job cannot be in control of that same destiny. If Job is not in control over his own destiny, then clearly, the Lord is the one who dictates, directs, and establishes life events (for him).

If this principle does not apply to us, why would we need to read such Scriptures? Consistently, I am posting Scripture that points out the Plan of God. And in fact, we find here that Job mentions that God not only followed His Plan regarding himself (Job), but he states that God controls his destiny. In the life of Job, we find the Plan of God and how it is the Lord who determines destiny. These two concepts and principles run hand in hand with one another.

Ephesians 2:10 KJV – “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Still looking at the word “destiny,” we find ourselves backtracking from the timeline, chronological reading plan and referencing Deuteronomy 32:35. This passage reads the following way from the NLT, followed by the translation from the Jewish Tanakh:

Deuteronomy 32:35 NLT – “I will take revenge; I will pay them back. In due time their feet will slip. Their day of disaster will arrive, and their destiny will overtake them.”

The Jews translate this ancient Scripture in a like manner. Their translation reads as following:

“To be My vengeance and recompense, at the time that their foot falters. Yea, their day of disaster is near, and destiny rushed upon them.” Certainly, the Blessed Jews understand how to translate these writings just as we do (if not more reliably).

What does destiny mean? The following are a couple examples:

• “A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.”
• “The power or agency thought to predetermine events.”

But, does the Bible acknowledge this idea of predetermination? Below we have to clear examples regarding Christ and this Plan:

Acts 2:23 NET – “. . . this man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles.”

Ephesians 3:11 NLT - "This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

It seems most apparent that God has a pre-written Plan and that it [will] be followed. If this is the case, how then, can mere humans determine anything that defies and would thus thwart our Powerful, Almighty God and His Eternal Plan? What does this do to our sense of “free will?”

The Bible is clear that God is sovereign and omnipotent. Does that mean man isn't free to make his own choices? No.

It shouldn't do anything to the belief of man's free will.

But, of course, Calvinism uses "free will" to mean something far beyond what is really meant by it.

They want to portray 'free will' as some kind of power over things that man has no control over. Like the weather, for example.

The agenda of Calvinism is that in order to prop up their theology that God chooses unconditionally who He will save, and that man has no choice in the matter, they must trash all notions of free will. So they make up something that is NOT free will at all. And attack their own made up monster.

In fact, God's plan from the beginning was to offer salvation to mankind and save those who believe in the gospel. So from ALL the verses about salvation, it is CLEAR that salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ.

We see it in Paul's answer to the jailer, who asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved? Paul's answer shows the free will of man.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." This is a choice, between 2 options. One option is to believe on Christ and be saved, and the other option is to not believe what Paul said. Real simple.

But, when one understands that the REAL meaning of "free will" means only a free choice between options, Calvinism's claim about total depravity, unconditional election and limited atonement all fall apart at the seams.

Man CANNOT save himself. But man CAN receive the free gift of eternal life by believing what the gospel offers.

Still looking at the word “destiny,” we find ourselves back to day 105 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, as David wrote of his life. He wrote:

Psalm 31:15 NET – “You determine my destiny! Rescue me from the power of my enemies and those who chase me.”

The majority of translations state, “My times are in your hands,” referencing the same concept as “You determine my destiny.” The “things” that happen to us, or at least king David, were predetermined by the Lord, just as the events of Christ were predetermined (by the Lord).

The Jewish Tanakh translates this way:

"My fate is in your hand; save me from the hand of my enemies and pursuers."

And regarding Christ:

John 7:6, 30 NET – “So Jesus replied, “My time has not yet arrived, but you are ready at any opportunity!” ... 30 “So then they tried to seize Jesus, but no one laid a hand on him, because his time had not yet come.”

John 12:27 NET - “Now my soul is greatly distressed. And what should I say? ‘Father, deliver me from this hour? No, but for this very reason I have come to this hour.”

John 13:1 NET – “Just before the Passover feast, Jesus knew that his time had come to depart from this world to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now loved them to the very end.”

John 17:1 NET – “When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you . . .”

If we are confused about the definition of “destiny,” consider Eccl 7:2, where it conveys the following:

NET - “It is better to go to a funeral than a feast. For death is the destiny of every person, and the living should take this to heart.”

It is reasonable to assume that we all recognize that all people are “destined” and expected to die. Therefore, if we take this approach (and definition from Eccl 7:2), we can more easily understand that when David writes in this manner, he is stating that his future is pre-planned, just as is his death.

Consider this: Isa 8:19 (below) shows us that some people possess the ability to communicate with Spirits from the Underworld regarding the “destiny” (planned events) of the living. So the Plan for our lives is apparently “out there” to be known.

NET - “They will say to you, “Seek oracles at the pits used to conjure up underworld spirits, from the magicians who chirp and mutter incantations. Should people not seek oracles from their gods, by asking the dead about the destiny of the living?”

If there is such a thing as the Plan of God, which there obviously is, and if there is such a thing as “destiny,” what does this say regarding the sense of “free will”?

Psalm 139:16 NLT – “You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.”

Continuing this review of the word “destiny,” we are still trying to catch up to the timeline, chronological order of this concept of “free will.” From Day 116, Psalms 73 was written by Asaph, not king David. Nonetheless, the teaching remains the same: the Lord has a Plan that will be fulfilled, whether we agree with it or not. We are not in control . . . no one is in control.

Psalm 73:11-12, 16-19 NLT - 11 “What does God know?” they ask. “Does the Most High even know what’s happening?” 12 Look at these wicked people--enjoying a life of ease while their riches multiply.”... 16 “So I tried to understand why the wicked prosper. But what a difficult task it is! 17 Then I went into your sanctuary, O God, and I finally understood the destiny of the wicked. 18 Truly, you put them on a slippery path and send them sliding over the cliff to destruction. 19 In an instant they are destroyed, completely swept away by terrors.”

The Bible clearly states that the Lord’s Ways are not like ours. In other words, the way we think in this world is not how the Lord thinks. One element of this is how the unregenerate live carefree, wanton lives, while those who belong to the True Vine of Christ . . . we suffer (one way or another). Verse 12 indicates this, as it is said that wicked people enjoy lives of ease. Asaph then states that this concept confused him, proven by his confusion regarding the matter. But . . . after Asaph entered the Sanctuary of God, the Plan of God regarding these evil people became evident. And what is clear is that those who the Lord Loves, these are the ones who suffer. Those who the Lord does not Love typically tend to live enjoyable lives, but enjoyable in what ways? Right . . . a life of carefree, self-centeredness backed by the evil presence of Satan. We find the example of this principle throughout Scripture, both with individual people and entire Nations. King David suffered; Paul suffered; Peter suffered . . . and Israel certainly suffered.

What is clear is this idea that Asaph “finally understood.” Why would he say such a thing? Because added to his knowledge of the Plan of God was that God, in fact [does] “know what is happening.” Not only does God know what is happening (verse 11 above), but He is indeed making these “things” happen. How can we be sure that it is God who is in control? Because of this idea of “destiny.” There is no such concept as destiny if there is not an overarching Power that causes “things” to take place. And that is precisely what we find through the words of Asaph, which is that the Lord has a Plan for the wicked, including their ultimate demise. We know this by Asaphs words, “You put them on a slippery path.” Does this sound like God as a simple bystander? Or is this an active God who has a Plan and is in the process of executing it?

Can there be a Godly Plan if He does not control people? Can the Lord be in control if He does not induce their thinking and activities? I have shown over and over again how many instances there are (throughout the Old Testament – and counting) of how the Lord controls not only people but animals as well as basic creation itself, such as the Red Sea and Jordan bodies of water being parted for the escape and protection of His beloved people. The Story of God, which is the Gospel, centers around this Power and control of God. It does not center around the Power of mere people and the things we are free to do, say, and think.

If we are paying attention to these Scriptures offered in this thread, it should become most conclusive that our sense of “free will,” if it exists at all, is at a bare minimum . . . LIMITED.

It's real simple; God is in control. That's what sovereignty means. However, God, in His absolute sovereignty, created mankind with a conscience, with which to know right from wrong. Rom 2:14,15 teaches that clearly.

Why would man need a conscience, IF God makes all the choices for man? He wouldn't. But since he DOES have a conscience, it should be obvious to everyone that man is ABLE to choose to believe the gospel. However, the Bible also tells us that there are those who REFUSE to believe the gospel, in Acts 14:2 and 19:9.

So, it is beyond clear that man is free to choose to believe in Christ or reject Him as Savior.

Any kind of definition beyond freedom of choice is a red herring and not worth bothering to argue about.

I recall reading a story about a lady named rahab the harlot remember that one? I'm going to paraphrase here but I think the Bible speaks about moved with fear she acted to save her household? So all the people of Jericho had heard about the Jews but rahab chose to believe and acted accordingly. God does not change anybody's mind. There's also a verse I believe it's in Proverbs says something like a man's heart devises his way with the Lord directs his steps. So the path that you take in life, you decide, but God controls the outcome and the consequences of your choice.

Okay the time had expired so I couldn't edit it but it was Noah who prepared the art to the saving of his household but the principal is the same rahab did essentially the same thing by hiding the spies she saved her household when Jericho was destroyed. She did that by faith.

Thank you for your input. Say . . . could you give me/us some kind of actual example/s of what the above quote would look like? I can't picture what you mean in terms of the life of a Christian.

You also wrote something that, and maybe its just me, but it seems contrary to the above quote. It is:

"God does not change anybody's mind."

If God is in control of the outcome of people's decisions, how is it possible that God would not interfere with the process by which they make their choices? I don't know if there's an answer for this . . . at least I haven't seen one as of yet.

Those are great stories. Do you believe the Bible as it repeatedly speaks of the Plan of God? Do you acknowledge that there is such a Plan? Was it by accident that the Rahab and Jericho events took place, or was God orchestrating just as the Bible proclaims?

What a most fascinating Bible we have. It is an absolute miracle that this story exists. And to think that it was written over the span of several thousand years. Inconceivable.

We are given all the law and the commandments to say what we should and should not do. We have the freedom to obey God's laws. But if we obey God's laws, this limits our freedom; we can only do anything that is legal.

We are given the greatest commandments to love God and neighbour. These are more of a voluntary code, that asks us to not only obey the law, but to go beyond the law in kindness. Mathew 25 comes to mind.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Still clinging to Day 116 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, I should have included verse 24 in yesterday’s post. In chapter 73 of Psalms, verse 24 also includes the concept of “destiny,” . . . at least according to the NLT translation. It reads as follows:

Psalm 73:24 NLT – “You guide me with your counsel, leading me to a glorious destiny.”

There are two definitions of destiny, according to Grammarly. The first is as follows:

• “That to which any person or thing is destined; a predetermined state; a condition predestined by the Divine or by human will.”
• “The fixed order of things; invincible necessity; an irresistible power or agency conceived of as determining the future, whether in general or of an individual.”

Whether we accept the NLT translation or not, virtually all translations show that there is a Godly Plan which includes being led into and received to Glory.

What if these definitions of destiny are correct? Do they sound reasonable according to the Plan of God . . . the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I would submit that anyone who begins to read the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order and keeps track of all passages that would indicate that we do and do not possess “free will” will likely conclude that God has always known the exact outcome of every situation and scenario. I would submit that the Lord knows the outcome of all things because He is the one leading, controlling, and determining them.

And if this is true, which is that God is in complete control of all things, what does this say about a person’s sense of “free will?”

Jeremiah 10:23 NET – “LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny. It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.”

Thank you for your input, Eric. Does what you're saying only apply to those who are "saved?" I ask this question in relation to Shimei. Did Shimei have the choice of doing what was right, which would have meant that he could thwart the direction of God?

2 Samuel 16:5-12 NLT - 5 As King David came to Bahurim, a man came out of the village cursing them. It was Shimei son of Gera, from the same clan as Saul's family. 6 He threw stones at the king and the king's officers and all the mighty warriors who surrounded him. 7 "Get out of here, you murderer, you scoundrel!" he shouted at David. 8 "The LORD is paying you back for all the bloodshed in Saul's clan. You stole his throne, and now the LORD has given it to your son Absalom. At last you will taste some of your own medicine, for you are a murderer!" 9 "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king?" Abishai son of Zeruiah demanded. "Let me go over and cut off his head!" 10 "No!" the king said. "Who asked your opinion, you sons of Zeruiah! If the LORD has told him to curse me, who are you to stop him?" 11 Then David said to Abishai and to all his servants, "My own son is trying to kill me. Doesn't this relative of Saul have even more reason to do so? Leave him alone and let him curse, for the LORD has told him to do it. 12 And perhaps the LORD will see that I am being wronged and will bless me because of these curses today."

How do we really know that we are free to choose what we say and do? David states that God caused Shimei to do and say what he did and said. Furthermore, this is consistent with the plethora of verses that have been offered thus far over the course of this 32 page thread.

I don't know, is the honest answer. We can only try and do what is right ourselves. Did Jesus only die for Christians, whose only sins might be for some minor misdemeanours? If any of us achieve salvation, it will not be because we have earned it through our own efforts, it will be because of the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.

No one can judge in the way our Lord will judge.

Absolutely. His plan for salvation is Grace through faith throughout the ages and throughout his word. Here's one example. Deuteronomy 30: 19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live". Do you remember reading about the comforter aka the holy Ghost who reproves the world of sin of righteousness and judgment? Do you remember the story about Felix who when Paul gave him the gospel he reasoned of righteousness temperance and judgment it's the same thing. God gives us an ultimatum you are given the choice to choose life which is Jesus Christ or choose death which is sin and
self. You can repent and turn to Jesus or die and go to hell. That is the choice. God planned it to be that way. Do you want to obey in his plan or reject it? God doesn't want robots. He wants grateful people who can say "we love him because he first loved us". That phrase is in the Bible too.

I used to believe essentially what you've written above. Then . . . I began to study the Bible and have since seen the clear Truth.

Shepherd said:
God gives us an ultimatum you are given the choice to choose life which is Jesus Christ or choose death which is sin and
self.
What 2TG is basically admitting, though he probably will deny this, is that God is the Puppetmaster and human beings are the puppets.

He pulls all the strings and He alone and unconditionally decides (elect) who He wants to save. So, for those puppets, He pulls the strings that makes them believe. That's the basics of Calvinism and their unbiblical "unconditional election" doctrine.

For them, faith is merely a by-product of regeneration, another unbiblical notion. Some Calvinists have taken this unbiblical notion to the extreme, and claim that some people were regenerated many years before they came to faith!!

Still attempting to catch up to the timeline, chronological order of this thread, we find ourselves back in Day 171, which happens to include the remarkable book of Ecclesiastes. As I continue to offer the Biblical concept of “destiny,” look at what Ecclesiastes 9:1-2 has to offer regarding this remarkable topic of “free will.” The Jews translate their teachings the following way (from their Tanakh):

"For all this I noted, and I ascertained all this: that the actions of even the righteous and the wise are determined by God. Even love! Even hate! Man knows none of these in advance - none! For the same fate is in store for all: for the righteous, and for the wicked; for the good and pure, and for the impure; for him who sacrifices, and for him who does not; for him who is pleasing; and for him who I displeasing; for him who swears, and for him who shuns oaths."

What? The actions of even the righteous and the wise are determined by God? At what point in the near 100 passage sets that I have offered, will we begin to realize that perhaps we ought to believe what the Bible has to say regarding “free will?”

Back on schedule with the timeline, chronological order of this thread (and included Scriptures). We are back and into the great book of Jeremiah . . . and my oh my, does this book have some remarkable passages that deal with the concept of “free will.”

Chapter 13, verse 25 reads as follows:

Jeremiah 13:25 NET – “This is your fate, the destiny to which I have appointed you, because you have forgotten me and have trusted in false gods.”

Question: Can you, the individual, determine your child’s fate? Can you, the individual, appoint your child’s destiny? No, none of us can, which explains why we have NEVER heard a family member, a close friend, or anyone for that fact . . . who believes that they can determine another person’s fate and/or destiny. And if we could, we would all make that determination for our children to ensure that they will not make the same mistakes that we have made (and continue to make). But as I have been pointing out (for weeks now), is that the Lord possesses such Power and control. The Lord has an Eternal Plan, which explains how the Bible proclaims the fact that God does indeed control us in this exact way.

So, if we possess True “free will,” do we possess the personal Power to overthrow the Plan of the Lord? If the Lord has determined our fate and destiny, do we possess the Power to choose against the Plan of God? Of course not.

As I have stated in the past, I am forced to conclude that humans have a limited sense of “free will,” I base this upon Scripture that supports both sides of the argument. First, Scripture clearly states that God has an Eternal Plan that He executes daily. Second, Scripture is also clear that humans are to “choose” the Lord, thus indicating that we, in fact, [do] possess “free will.”

Today’s post comes from Day 224 of the timeline, chronological Bible reading where Jeremiah chapter 19 offers the single most significant piece of Scripture indicating that humans act outside the Lord’s control (and Eternal Plan). If I were to argue that humans possess “free will,” the below Scripture is the single most convincing piece of Scripture that I believe exists. It reads as follows:

Jeremiah 19:5 NLT – “They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!”

I could post Scriptures all day and night that indicate that humans are to “choose.” But this particular Scripture (above) is so abundantly clear that I feel it would be irresponsible not to share such an amazing set of Words. But ironically, because Israel acted independently of the Lord’s direction, God stepped in to take control over what will happen to them. As a result, the Lord will strip Israel of their choices and cause them to behave in the most remarkable ways. Just four verses later, Jeremiah chapter 19 says the following:

NLT - “I will see to it that your enemies lay siege to the city until all the food is gone. Then those trapped inside will eat their own sons and daughters and friends. They will be driven to utter despair.”

What? God will “see to it” that Israel will do what with their sons, daughters, and friends? God will “see to it” what, exactly, will happen to the emotions of collective Israel? Later in Scripture, we find that God follows through with these prophecies where in fact, 1) Babylon attacked Israel, and 2) Isreal was caused to murder, cook, eat, and hide the remains of their children and friends for later consumption. This indicates that while Israel acted independently of the Lord, God later took control and caused Israel to do the unthinkable, which is to murder their own children and friends so that “they” could stay alive. Think about that (as a parent). Which parents here at Christian Chat would ever think about murdering their own child to prevent starvation? This kind of thinking flies directly into the face of all reason and rationality. Instead, all good parents would sacrifice themselves for their children so that they could eat the flesh of their parents . . . so that they might live. Am I wrong? Wouldn’t each parent here offer their bodies as living sacrifices for their children so they might live? Indeed, this is the act of Christ . . . our Heavenly Father and Master.

But this act of murder, cooking, eating, and hiding the remains of an Israelite’s children is not a single, isolated incident. Instead, it is a collective action completed by Israel the Nation as first prophesied in Leviticus 26:29-32:

NLT - “Then you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters. I will destroy your pagan shrines and knock down your places of worship. I will leave your lifeless corpses piled on top of your lifeless idols, and I will despise you. I will make your cities desolate and destroy your places of pagan worship. I will take no pleasure in your offerings that should be a pleasing aroma to me. Yes, I myself will devastate your land, and your enemies who come to occupy it will be appalled at what they see.”

And, of course, anyone who is a student of Israel will know that God caused “Israel” to do just as the Lord said that He would cause them to do. Israel murdered, cooked, ate, and hid the remains of their friends and family members for later consumption. What parent would ever consume their child unless the Lord had caused them to perform such an act?

Don’t you all agree that it would take an act of God to cause you to murder, cook, consume, and hide the remains of your own child so that you might selfishly live? Or, which of you is willing to admit that you would do such a horrific thing?

Ezekiel 5:9-10 NLT – “Because of your detestable idols, I will punish you like I have never punished anyone before or ever will again. 10 Parents will eat their own children, and children will eat their parents. I will punish you and scatter to the winds the few who survive.”

Imagine living the rest of your life playing back the sounds of murdering your own son or daughter. Imagine their screams . . . their begging and pleading. Imagine living the rest of your life remembering the odor of your child as you cooked him or her. Imagine living the rest of your life with the memory of the flavor of your child. Imagine living the rest of your life as you recall which piece of your child you opted to consume first. Was it their lips? Did you eat their eyes? Punishment? Yes, this is the ultimate punishment for a living being . . . the punishment of being caused to perform such horrific acts.