Salvation is for the Whole World

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Underwhosewings

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2023
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#21
Wow! Your testimony is beyond powerful! May God always protect you and your loved ones from this and all heresies. ❤️🙏God bless you, @Underwhosewings.
☺️ God bless you!
I somehow manage to always choose the way of the cross and suffering.
One day I said, “Lord, this pain, how much longer,” the reply came….
Psalm 59:11 KJV
Slay them not, lest my people forget: scatter them by thy power; and bring them down, O Lord our shield.
…I said, ok Lord, keep going for as long as it takes.

Proverbs 21:31 KJV
… safety is of the Lord.
 

Underwhosewings

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2023
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#22
John, a Jew, an apostle is the one writing the epistle of 1 John -

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1John 1:1-3)

John is writing to other Jews -

"Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard." (1John 2:7)

John here is explaining that Jesus Christ is the expiation for the whole world, Gentiles as well as Jews. The phrase "whole world" does not mean every person without exception. I have found no Greek-English Lexicon or English dictionary that defines "the world" in as everyone without exception. It must be 'read into' the phrase.

"So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" (Rom 11:11-15)

John 3:16 records the same thing as Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus, Jew, a Pharisee, a ruler of the Jews, a teacher of Israel and he informs this Pharisee that God so loved the world, not just Jews. This same writer, John, gives us who the world is in Revelation -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of [or from] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9)

There is the world Jesus loves! Notice Jesus Christ by his blood redeemed men to God "out of", not everyone of each kindred, tongue, people and nation without exception.

It is no wonder that most evangelicals cannot refute the Jehovah's Witnesses, they use the same superficial proof texting the JWs do, not truly understanding the verses they string together.
Try not to sound like Calvin, souls need hope, not despair.

Revelation 7:9 KJV
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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#23
☺️ God bless you!
I somehow manage to always choose the way of the cross and suffering.
One day I said, “Lord, this pain, how much longer,” the reply came….
Psalm 59:11 KJV
Slay them not, lest my people forget: scatter them by thy power; and bring them down, O Lord our shield.
…I said, ok Lord, keep going for as long as it takes.

Proverbs 21:31 KJV
… safety is of the Lord.
That’s incredible! The Word that empowers me to share with everyone is: Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly at heart. And you shall find rest for your souls. Matthew 11, 28–30. ❤️❤️❤️
 

MessengerofTruth

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Dec 21, 2022
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#24
Luke 12:51 KJV
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

1 Corinthians 9:16 KJV
…woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!…

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I agree with you completely. Believe me, I've lived this Truth, but we are to do all we can to walk in truth and peace.

I do not, at this moment, have to cut off those that do not agree with me, but to seek to do all I can to try to be in the truth and to be at peace with them.

If they persist after talking to them, I will have to count them as those that cause division and have nothing to do with them...
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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#25
Try not to sound like Calvin, souls need hope, not despair.

Revelation 7:9 KJV
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Good luck, beloved. Please use your discernment prudently and wisely with this one.
 

Underwhosewings

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Jan 19, 2023
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#26
That’s incredible! The Word that empowers me to share with everyone is: Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly at heart. And you shall find rest for your souls. Matthew 11, 28–30. ❤️❤️❤️
That is the key!

Matthew 11:30 KJV
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Satan will attack us in any way he can, and he can be very convincing. he has had so much experience.
But…
1 John 4:4 KJV
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Thank you @Snacks
 

MessengerofTruth

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2022
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#28
What I wrote in post #15 was to hopefully get those that espouse the Calvinist doctrine to consider that this path they choose is not in accordance with the true doctrine of Christ.

Which is like someone quoted earlier (you know who you are) "Come unto me, ALL who Labor and are of heavy laden and I will give you rest." and also "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to myself.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#29
I've never considered myself a Calvinist, or an Arminianist.

But Arminianism usually teaches AGAINST Eternal Security. That is huge to me, so I tend to gravitate towards Calvinism because of that issue. But I also give much more weight to God's sovereignty than man's will. Most of this debate seems to me to be an exercise in futility, as cases can Scripturally be made for each position.

So again, I don't know if their right or wrong on how they define "world'" but rather than me explaining their position, I'll let this guy. But make NO mistake. Calvinists ARE our brothers and sisters in Christ. They believe in EVERY mandatory tenet of the Gospel.

 

Underwhosewings

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2023
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#30
I agree with you completely. Believe me, I've lived this Truth, but we are to do all we can to walk in truth and peace.

I do not, at this moment, have to cut off those that do not agree with me, but to seek to do all I can to try to be in the truth and to be at peace with them.

If they persist after talking to them, I will have to count them as those that cause division and have nothing to do with them...
I’m sure everyone on this website will agree to this passage of scripture

2 John 1:6-7,9-11 KJV
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. [7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
 

Underwhosewings

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2023
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#31
Why would you tell a congregation of unsaved despairing sinners that salvation is a ‘lucky dip’
and that “the whole world” actually means something else, that’s evil.

Joshua 24:15 KJV
….choose you this day whom ye will serve; …..but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
1 John 2:2 KJV
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

IsaiahA

Active member
Jan 24, 2023
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#32
Most evangelicals think, Jesus Christ died to pay for the sins of every person in the world, bar none. So Mr. Evangelical, why are you saved and others are not? You think it is because you exercised belief in Christ, you accepted Jesus. It is clear from your own teaching that you think you are saved by what you did, not what Jesus Christ did. You think Jesus provided a hypothetical salvation for everyone without exception, but you merited your salvation by believing. It was of you, that made you think you're saved, not the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—" (Eph 2:8)

It IS your own doing if Christ died for everyone bar none! You take credit for your own salvation for Jesus Christ did no more for you than any other, so you made the difference. You have something to boast of and you do so...

"He has chosen things without rank or standing in the world, mere nothings, to overthrow the existing order. So no place is left for any human pride in the presence of God. By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’" (1Cor 1:28-31)

Are evangelicals believing in Jesus Christ or are they believing in their faith. They must be believing in their personal faith rather than the object of their so-called faith. Can having faith in your own faith save anyone? If Jesus provided the same for everyone, then they must be believing in their faith, not Jesus Christ!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#33
Most evangelicals think, Jesus Christ died to pay for the sins of every person in the world, bar none.
It does not matter what "most evangelicals" think. What does the Word of God say? Does it not say that Christ died for the sins of the whole world? So you have simply created a straw man about people having faith in their own faith. Obviously you did not exercise faith.
 

MessengerofTruth

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2022
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#34
Most evangelicals think, Jesus Christ died to pay for the sins of every person in the world, bar none. So Mr. Evangelical, why are you saved and others are not? You think it is because you exercised belief in Christ, you accepted Jesus. It is clear from your own teaching that you think you are saved by what you did, not what Jesus Christ did. You think Jesus provided a hypothetical salvation for everyone without exception, but you merited your salvation by believing. It was of you, that made you think you're saved, not the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—" (Eph 2:8)

It IS your own doing if Christ died for everyone bar none! You take credit for your own salvation for Jesus Christ did no more for you than any other, so you made the difference. You have something to boast of and you do so...

"He has chosen things without rank or standing in the world, mere nothings, to overthrow the existing order. So no place is left for any human pride in the presence of God. By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’" (1Cor 1:28-31)

Are evangelicals believing in Jesus Christ or are they believing in their faith. They must be believing in their personal faith rather than the object of their so-called faith. Can having faith in your own faith save anyone? If Jesus provided the same for everyone, then they must be believing in their faith, not Jesus Christ!
I think that we would all agree with the scriptures you have shared it is the over-emphasis on them that I believe is the trouble.

Many that consider themselves Calvanists cannot forbear much with those that would not consider themselves Calvanists and promote division by the lack of moderation in their doctrine.

Jesus, nor the Apostles emphasized this doctrine as many do in these last days.

Paul even deferred sharing deeper things to those he had charge of because they were not ready, they were still carnal.

Instead, he sought to see Christ formed in them, in their hearts, by the sincere milk of the Word and establishing them in Grace.

I cannot see where he taught it the way many do today, to the point of provoking people and causing division.

This goes against the very doctrine to love.
 

IsaiahA

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Jan 24, 2023
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#35
I think that we would all agree with the scriptures you have shared it is the over-emphasis on them that I believe is the trouble.

Many that consider themselves Calvanists cannot forbear much with those that would not consider themselves Calvanists and promote division by the lack of moderation in their doctrine.

Jesus, nor the Apostles emphasized this doctrine as many do in these last days.

Paul even deferred sharing deeper things to those he had charge of because they were not ready, they were still carnal.

Instead, he sought to see Christ formed in them, in their hearts, by the sincere milk of the Word and establishing them in Grace.

I cannot see where he taught it the way many do today, to the point of provoking people and causing division.

This goes against the very doctrine to love.
It is not love to let a perverted gospel be spread across the land without challenging it forcibly by scripture!

"My friends, I was fully intending to write to you about the salvation we share, when I found it necessary to take up my pen and urge you to join in the struggle for that faith which God entrusted to his people once for all. Certain individuals have wormed their way in, the very people whom scripture long ago marked down for the sentence they are now incurring. They are enemies of religion; they pervert the free favour of our God into licentiousness, disowning Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord." (Jude 1:3-4)

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ." (Gal 1:8-10)

"Alas for you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You travel over sea and land to win one convert; and when you have succeeded you make him twice as fit for hell as you are yourselves." (Matt 23:15)

"Snakes! Vipers’ brood! How can you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matt 23:33)
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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#37
It IS your own doing if Christ died for everyone bar none! You take credit for your own salvation for Jesus Christ did no more for you than any other, so you made the difference. You have something to boast of and you do so...

Actually nothing to boast about, the faith required is the same for each and every person.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
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#38
In that case Sproul should have repudiated Calvinism, since that is not the only verse that says this. The problem is that man-made doctrines trump Scripture for the Calvinists.
If we assume the world means world of the elect for some reason, what about this verse:

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

How could they wiggle out of that one? EVERY MAN is pretty specific. It doesn't say "all" which we know sometimes means not every one, like when the emperor put the whole "world" under tax, he didn't mean Japan or South America, obviously he meant the roman empire, I get that im not that dumb.
But EVERY MAN to me is so specific that you really cannot get out of that no matter how you interpret it
 

IsaiahA

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Jan 24, 2023
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#40
It does not matter what "most evangelicals" think. What does the Word of God say? Does it not say that Christ died for the sins of the whole world? So you have simply created a straw man about people having faith in their own faith. Obviously you did not exercise faith.
Show from scripture, don't pontificate, that "the world" means every person in the world without exception in John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2. The Greek-English Lexicons that I've checked do not read like that. I've not found an English dictionary that defines "world" as every person without exception. Even if such a definition were to be found, you'd need to prove that is what it means in John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2!

"For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” (John 7:4)

Can a person show himself to every person in the world without exception?

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8)

Here "the whole world" there refers to the then known world or the Roman Empire, NOT every person in the world without exception.

"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." (John 15:19)

It is obvious that John is not using "the world" here to mean every person in the world without exception. It seems that today most evangelicals pervert John 3:16 by adding words and ignoring the grammar. They read it thus:

"For God so loved [every person in] the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [will] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

That is to add to "the world" what cannot be shown in the context, and by adding "will" before believeth is an attempt to make this verse a formula or plan to obtain salvation. The verse is a statement of established fact of a person who is believing not some formula to be born again or saved. "believeth", is a statement of the fact of one believing now and continuing in belief. It is an archaic word.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Joh 3:16)

The verse is a statement of existing fact! A man is born from above by God' s will, John 1:12, 13, and his first act by grace is his faith. A new born baby's first act is natural to his birth, he breathes. The one born from above believes because of that new spiritual nature given by God.