2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

cv5 · Sep 30, 2021

ewq1938 said:

If you don't answer these questions....its back into the iggy penalty box for you...

https://christianchat.com/bookmarks/confirm?content_type=post&content_id=4662998

https://christianchat.com/threads/2...ly-describing-the-rapture.201570/post-4663444

cv5 · Sep 30, 2021

rayzor said:

It looks like you are on the right track there rayzor. Keep up the good work. Ask yourself what is the identity of the person John is speaking with....

rayzor · Sep 30, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Because of the wine of violence there a bird named killdeer it uses the red herring strategy to protect its offspring.It's protecting it's own interest.That is the harlot

rayzor · Sep 30, 2021

7 churches are the 7 continents of the world and the hill the harlot sits on are the seven deadly sins.

Ephesus.
Smyrna.
Pergamon.
Thyatira.
Sardis.
Philadelphia
Laodicea.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 30, 2021

rayzor said:

With this kind of hermeneutic, one can make anything mean anything else.

The seven churches were exactly that. Seven assemblies in seven cities of what is now Turkey. But the messages to those churches are as relevant today, as they were at that time. The issues in churches have remained the same. Those churches were commanded to repent. And all churches and denominations today are also commanded to repent. Chances are that they will not do so.

rayzor · Sep 30, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

there is the mystery of the harlot and the 7 hills,,,[The mystery harlot is sin incarnate!]

DavidTree · Sep 30, 2021

rayzor said:

Your analysis here is completely in error by attaching Rev 7:14 to Rev 3:10 as though this is the rapture.
This is twisting Scripture which Mr. twister and CV5 are doing.

Revelation 3:10 does NOT say "I will take you out before the Great Tribulation - He did say He would keep them from the hour of temptation. The SAME way He keeps us, who love Him today from temptation. By His Word and His Holy Spirit.

I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world,
but that You should keep them from the evil one.

They came 'out of' Great Tribulation NOT they were raptured from Great Tribulation.

The term 'out of' means they were right in the heart of the battle.

No Resurrection in chapter 7 - No Resurrection No rapture - adding to Scripture what it does not say comes from the spirit of error and idolatry of self, pride and religion.

Go back one chapter to find out who the LORD said these Saints are, who came 'out of' Great Tibulation.

Revelation 6: 9-11

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

The Lord said these are the Saints who come out of (from within) Great Tribulation.

Just as the "falling away" came from withing truth and they departed the truth.
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18

REPENT from "adding to and taking away from God's words" Repent of your pride and sin.

GRACE_ambassador · Sep 30, 2021

SaltwaterGirl said:

Precious friend, making these equal is part of the Confusion about our Great
GRACE Departure To Heaven! {Also, we have 16 other Scriptural Reasons...}:

{Portion Borrowed from C.R. Stam's "The Day Of The LORD - What Is It?"}:

...when we see that “The Day of The LORD” begins with,
rather than after the tribulation, all is in order....

...No, the Rapture of the Body of CHRIST to be With HIM will not follow the
tribulation; it will precede it. Thus the Apostle Paul, after writing about the
Rapture of the Body in 1 Thessalonians 4, continues in Chapter 5 with The
Word “But,” to show the disrelation of God’s prophesied “times and seasons”
and “The Day of The LORD,” From That Blessed Day {Of CHRIST}, for which
every believer should be “looking, waiting, And watching!”"...

FULL "study" is available here:
Great GRACE Departure - WHICH Day?
--------------------------------------------
(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!

rayzor · Sep 30, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

being by interpretation
PHRASE
g2059
ἑρμηνευόμενος ἑρμηνεύωhermēneuō [obtuse angle] but not added Found in Jhn 9:7 Jhn 1:42 Jhn 1:38 Heb 7:2

DavidTree said:

1Co 5:5
Then deliver me unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that my spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

ResidentAlien · Sep 30, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

Not all seven churches were commanded to repent. Two were not rebuked or told to repent: Smyrna and Philadelphia. Interestingly, one of these churches was suffering tribulation and poor (Smyrna); and the other, we're told, was not powerful (Philadelphia).

The influences of wealth and power tend to have a corrupting effect. As then, so today.

DavidTree · Sep 30, 2021

rayzor said:

i would not pray that.
i do pray that you and others would fear God and stop adding to His words and taking away from them.
You fail to realize the damage it is doing to yourselves and by leading others astray.

The Bible is a book but the Word is the Truth and is Eternal.
Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Matthew 24:35

Jesus said: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are Spirit, and they are Life."
John 6:63

When we alter Scripture to establish an error, that error becomes sin and has no life in it.

God never said that interpretation of His Word, His Second Coming, was left to our opinions.

We also have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation.
for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1: 19-21

These Three Holy Men of God spoke accurate details of His Second Coming - the LORD, Apostle Paul & Apostle John
Believe what they said and do not ad to their words.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 30, 2021

Just placing this other post I just made in a different there, here:

Post #17 - https://christianchat.com/threads/great-grace-departure-which-day.201630/post-4663909

[basically covering how certain SAME Greek words are used in DISTINCT *contexts*... where one should understand what the CONTEXT is, in each, or one would just come to "confused ends" if one were to simply blanketly APPLY them in the SAME WAY without regard to context (thus making a big mish-mash of mush, rather than coming to "understand")]

ewq1938 · Sep 30, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Apostasia has only one definition in NT bible according to Greek scholars and sources:

Strong's definition G646

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2

G646

apostasia

Thayer Definition:

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2

Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.

Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God , apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .

Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36

29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

cv5 · Sep 30, 2021

GRACE_ambassador said:

Precious friend, making these equal is part of the Confusion about our Great
GRACE Departure To Heaven! {Also, we have 16 other Scriptural Reasons...}:

{Portion Borrowed from C.R. Stam's "The Day Of The LORD - What Is It?"}:

...when we see that “The Day of The LORD” begins with,
rather than after the tribulation, all is in order....

...No, the Rapture of the Body of CHRIST to be With HIM will not follow the
tribulation; it will precede it. Thus the Apostle Paul, after writing about the
Rapture of the Body in 1 Thessalonians 4, continues in Chapter 5 with The
Word “But,” to show the disrelation of God’s prophesied “times and seasons”
and “The Day of The LORD,” From That Blessed Day {Of CHRIST}, for which
every believer should be “looking, waiting, And watching!”"...

FULL "study" is available here:
Great GRACE Departure - WHICH Day?
--------------------------------------------
(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!

Totally agree. The structure of those two chapters and also the structure of 2Thessalonians is very crisp and delineates a pretrib rapture. I really don't know why all this confusion.

ResidentAlien · Sep 30, 2021

cv5 said:

Who's confused?

DavidTree · Sep 30, 2021

GRACE_ambassador said:

You are a false teacher that adds to the words of the LORD.

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?
This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

No Resurrection until the Coming of the Lord and He said After the Tribulation - NOT Before.

Do not be a liar - turn to Christ now and ask for forgiveness - He will hold you accountable for adding to His Words.

cv5 · Sep 30, 2021

ResidentAlien said:

My latest question to the post-tribbers was (as is usual) left unanswered, that being:

What is your estimate for the amount (a percentage estimate would be fine) of Christians who will be left alive at the end of the tribulation, this residual to be supposedly raptured?

By the sounds of it it's going to be a truly rarefied scintilla.......

ResidentAlien · Sep 30, 2021

cv5 said:

I don't know. You'll have to ask a post-tribber about that.

Icedaisey · Sep 30, 2021

To the OP question, I believe that is what it is describing.

As pertains to the Greek Apostasia: Excerpt from Liberty University.
S THE RAPTURE IN 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3?Tom's Perspectives
by Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes
first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,—2 Thessalonians 2:3
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the
rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek
noun apostasia, usually translated “apostasy,” is a reference to the rapture and should be
translated “departure.” Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord
will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical
departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

THE MEANING OF APOSTASIA
Excerpts to follow for brevity:
The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2
Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 ....

....Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following
contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:
But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of
Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his

- 4 -
revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general
apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor
can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making
himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his
revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds
back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His
activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the
inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the
Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of
the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.12

CONCLUSION
The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear
support for pretribulationism. If this is true, (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is),
then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic
ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the
Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord
that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2
Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted
people. Maranatha!

DavidTree · Sep 30, 2021

Dear Icedaisy Post # 179
Thank you for your perfect example of how the carnal mind twists the meaning of God's word.
It is a clear indication that the heresy of pre-trib is backed into a corner it cannot escape from.
You know it's on it's death bed when carnal minded teachers strive over a single word or phrase to keep the lie alive.

The Apostle Paul said it would come down to this:
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

The Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all testify that the falling away is a departure from truth.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

This other Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

Three Faithful Witnesses, the LORD and Apostles Paul and John agree that the 'falling away' is not the rapture but a departure from Truth.
#1.) The LORD - "At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another" - Matt 24:10
#2.) Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
#3.) Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

#1.) The LORD - Abomination of Desolation - Matt 24:15
#2.) Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
#3.) Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

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