a Question for the Premillennialists

[eternally-gratefull]

Some biblical examples

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
This is one of the Old Testament passages interpreted as referring to the Millennium, allegedly, a literal interpretation of it will lead me to premillennialism.

To me the literal interpretation is this: During Christ's kingdom the increase of peace will have no end.
This is the Premillennial interpretation: The peace will end after a thousand years and the world will see the greatest war ever conceived by human beings.

Never heard of this being the greatest war. where do you get this? Jesus said the greatest war and time of persecution and agony will be the final 3 1/2 years. (As jesus said, there will be great tribulation, such has never been seen before or after) This time will be worste than WW2, which is the worste war mankind has ever seen. It will pale in comparison.

At the end of the 1000 years there is no war. They come up against Christ to make war. And he destroys them before the war even starts.

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, BUT(Y) fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

What war? They came to make war. Jesus fulfilled the prophesy and kept peace. BNy consuming them with fire from heaven. this is no war.

Maybe your reading some people who distort the truth. I do not agree with many premillenialists. They can be wacky!!

The premillennial interpretation doesn't sound very literal to me; as a matter of fact, it seems to contradict the literal interpretation to force Revelation 20:1-10 (a passage that does not say anything about the increase of peace, nor does it make any reference to any prophecy in Isaiah whatsoever) into this Isaiah prophecy.

I have no clue what your talking about here. Again. WHAT WAR??

Another example:
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Literal interpretation: weapons shall be destroyed forever and there will be no more war EVER.

Premillennial interpretation: Weapons will be destroyed but only for 1000 years, after this they will take the plowshares and their pruninhooks and turn them into swords and spears again, and the nations will lift the sword up against other nations again, and they will learn war again.

the premillennial interpretation seems to contradict the literal interpretation again and raises a lot of questions: the passage in Revelation 20 says that the nations in the four quarters of the earth will go to war and the number of them is like the sand of the sea; this is a lot of people, how long will it take to build an arsenal this big after all the weapons have been destroyed? how long will it take to train all this people to go to war? Who will organize these armies on different nations and make them come as one against Jerusalem? will there be a second Antichrist? Will this be a worldwide rebellion or there still be mortal people loyal to Christ? if so, what's going to happen to them, are they going to just watch with their arms crossed how half of the world rebels against Jesus, or are they going to be killed? If they are killed is there going to be a second "first resurrection" (third for dispensationalists) where the Millennium martyrs are going to rise? And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Again. WHAT WAR?? They come up in number. no mention of weapons (think about it. If there were still nuclear weapons, and air power these people would not have to march, they could just fire the weapons. They came in armies. and were destroyed by fire from heaven. No one fired a shot. because they COULD NOT FIRE.

Again. I would question who you are reading. What they say does not make sense.

 

[cronjecj]

if it did. we are long past 1000 years. and we might as well throw scripture out. because the last final battle never happened at the end Like God said it would.. right??

i didn't say the last final battle has already started,
i asked you did the 1000 years already begun
according to your knowledge of what you know
about Rev 20.

What do you believe concerning it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Im not here to prove any side....I can although prove u cant get premil with
any constant interpretation value...it takes a presupposition.

You just contradicted yourself.

and I disagree. You have to distort scripture. and make prophesy which should be literally interpreted in symbolic form to even come close to post or ammilenialism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i didn't say the last final battle has already started,
i asked you did the 1000 years already begun
according to your knowledge of what you know
about Rev 20.

What do you believe concerning it?

I answered. It has not started yet. It could not have started yet. Because the battle has not even started yet. When was armagedon fought? When did Christ kill all evil on earth.

Rev 20 speaks of 1000 years of peace. when did that happen? There has never been peace on earth since the fall of mankind now has there?

 

[cronjecj]

1. When was the first ressurection? thodse who did not recieve the mark of the beast
2. When was satan bound into the bottomles pit?

both mark the start of the 1000 years.

Satan is already bound if not already loosed.

The first resurrection -----> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/34207-first-resurrection.html

read it and see if you agree, and comment please.

ty.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Satan is already bound if not already loosed.

satan has never been bound. if he had been there would have been no wars. because he could not decieve ther nations. He did a great job decieving hitler, and many others.

The first resurrection -----> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/34207-first-resurrection.html

read it and see if you agree, and comment please.

ty.

5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

If the first ressurection was a spiritual ressurection. no one would be dead for 1000 years. sorry but I can not agree with your assessment. When Christ died, and was ressurected, all who were promised to Christ in the OT were made spiritually alive. And all after he died and came to life are spiritually made alive the moment of faith.

no one who dies physically not saved will ever be ressurected to life. they will be ressurected to death (the second death) The people who die physically in Christ are STILL spiritually alive. even though they are physically dead. So who is it that will not be ressurected for 1000 years?

2nd. the only people who are ressurected are those who do not take the mark of the beast. and those who are beheaded.

The mark of the beast has never been active, and I was not beheaded for my testimony before i was made alive in Christ.

 

[Abiding]

what about it? The messiah the prince came literally on the day daniel 9 said he would. He was also cut off the very time daniel 9 said he would (at the end of the 69th week)

the last 7 years will be literally fulfilled.

the first 69 weeks were literally fulfilled.

you want me to symbolically take the first half of the last week as lasting 30 some years (a total of 4 weeks plus two years) before the abomination takes place. Then what about the great tribulation. how long has it lasted??

70 weeks...is it literal?

 

[cronjecj]

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the
first resurrection: on such the second death
hath no power, but they shall be priests of
God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a
thousand years.

Revelation 1:6 (KJV)

And hath made us kings and priests unto God
and his Father; to him be glory and dominion
for ever and ever. Amen.

in Rev 1:6 it says that He has made (past tense)
us kings and priests unto God.

in Ephesian 2:6 it says He has (past tense)
seated us in heavenly places in Christ.

i know you don't believe this but i believe
we have already taken part in the first resurrection.

We have passed from death unto life as
promised by Christ.


John 5:24 (KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth
my word, and believeth on him that sent me,
hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Laodicea]

satan has never been bound. if he had been there would have been no wars. because he could not decieve ther nations. He did a great job decieving hitler, and many others.

5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

If the first ressurection was a spiritual ressurection. no one would be dead for 1000 years. sorry but I can not agree with your assessment. When Christ died, and was ressurected, all who were promised to Christ in the OT were made spiritually alive. And all after he died and came to life are spiritually made alive the moment of faith.

no one who dies physically not saved will ever be ressurected to life. they will be ressurected to death (the second death) The people who die physically in Christ are STILL spiritually alive. even though they are physically dead. So who is it that will not be ressurected for 1000 years?

2nd. the only people who are ressurected are those who do not take the mark of the beast. and those who are beheaded.

The mark of the beast has never been active, and I was not beheaded for my testimony before i was made alive in Christ.

EG I just want to ask do you fit the 42 months into the final week of Daniel 9? And if so how do you explain using the year/day principle for one prophecy and not the other? I asked this to someone else and he had no idea, he did not even understand the year/day principle but, you seem to know more and hopefully will give an answer.

Thanks

 

[Abiding]

You just contradicted yourself.

and I disagree. You have to distort scripture. and make prophesy which should be literally interpreted in symbolic form to even come close to post or ammilenialism.

Is daniels 70 weeks literal?

 

[cronjecj]

satan has never been bound. if he had been there would have been no wars. because he could not decieve ther nations. He did a great job decieving hitler, and many others.

John 12:31 (KJV)

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall
the prince of this world be cast out.

What did Christ mean when He said this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

70 weeks...is it literal?

was 69 weeks literal?? Yes. (proven by history)

should not the last week be literal also then?? Yes or no??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG I just want to ask do you fit the 42 months into the final week of Daniel 9? And if so how do you explain using the year/day principle for one prophecy and not the other? I asked this to someone else and he had no idea, he did not even understand the year/day principle but, you seem to know more and hopefully will give an answer.

Thanks

the final week is split into two sections of 42 weeks (3 1/2 years)

it starts when a covenant is made by a future prince (who comes from the people who destroy the temple and jerusalem)

the middle is shown by the one who commits the abomination of desolation. Which christ says will be immediately followed by great tribulation.

and will end with a great battle. (the return of Christ)

21For then there will be(AJ) great tribulation,(AK) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for(AL) the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23(AM) Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For(AN) false christs and(AO) false prophets will arise and(AP) perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See,(AQ) I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, 'Look,(AR) he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27(AS) For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be(AT) the coming of the Son of Man. 28(AU) Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

we see a few things about what Jesus said.

1. The abomination ( supposed to be in the middle of the week
2. Great tribulation immediately follows.
3. This war will be so great. mankind has the ability to wipe itself off the face of the earth (no flesh will be saved)
4. The end of the war will be seen as vultures will be wherever the corpse is. And this is immediatly following the return of Christ.

please note. Until tyhe advent of nuclear weapons. This prophesy could nOT have been fulfilled. Because mankind did not have the ability to "destroy all flesh"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 12:31 (KJV)

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall
the prince of this world be cast out.

What did Christ mean when He said this?

has the world been judged?

if it is. why is there still evil in the world? why did Hitler do what he did? and all the other evil dictators over the past 2000 years?

why are we still at war with satan if he is supposedly bound? how can the future prince be called the son of perdition, if satan is already bound? remember, judas is the only other son of perdition. what made him that? satan entered him to control him. as he will the future world leader.

 

[AnandaHya]

has the world been judged? yes but it has not been destroyed and replaced yet. the final battle has not occured because even you know that doesn't happen until AFTER SATAN IS RELEASED, then the white throne judgement and the new heaven and new earth

if it is. why is there still evil in the world? the world has been cursed by God and it has not been replaced by a world without the curse

why did Hitler do what he did? and all the other evil dictators over the past 2000 years? what about the curse of Adam don't you get? don't need demons, man's fallen nature is enough to account for the evil in the world.

why are we still at war with satan if he is supposedly bound? because he is released and we do not only war with Satan we war with our own flesh natures

how can the future prince be called the son of perdition, if satan is already bound? that passages says that the son of perdition is being restrained or bound and will be RELEASED before the future prince is revealed.

remember, judas is the only other son of perdition. what made him that? satan entered him to control him. as he will the future world leader.

because Satan is RELEASED.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

because Satan is RELEASED.

Yet according to scripture. He is bound AFTER the son of perdition is destroyed, and peace is instituted by Christ.

as for your answers.

Scripture says our fight is against principalities and powers.

Scripture states satan can not only decieve us, but other people.

Satan can decieve us, He can't control us, only if we let him. we have the HS to protect us.

A non believer does not have the HS to protect them. Hitler tried to kill every jew.. why? Who go against a people who HAVE NO POWER? think about it. If hitler succeded in killing every one he tried. How would god fulfill his promise to them?

 

[AnandaHya]

Yet according to scripture. He is bound AFTER the son of perdition is destroyed, and peace is instituted by Christ. yes in HEAVEN

as for your answers.

Scripture says our fight is against principalities and powers. which are located where?

Scripture states satan can not only decieve us, but other people. yes and he does it after he is released too

Satan can decieve us, He can't control us, only if we let him. we have the HS to protect us.

A non believer does not have the HS to protect them. Hitler tried to kill every jew.. why? Who go against a people who HAVE NO POWER? think about it. If hitler succeded in killing every one he tried. How would god fulfill his promise to them? Gog and Magog, who do you think they are?

where is the temple of God?

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

this is about Revelation 20 when Satan is released for he had to be bound first for these verses to be true.

2 thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

matches...

Revelation 20

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

 

[Abiding]

was 69 weeks literal?? Yes. (proven by history)

should not the last week be literal also then?? Yes or no??

the answer id no 70 weeks IS NOT literal



you said:But all PAST prophesy has been fulfilled literally. so we would be foolish not to interpret future prophesy the same as all past prophesy has been fulfilled. It is called precedence. Why would God change the way he does things?

 

[shroom2]

because Satan is RELEASED.

He has not been bound. yet.

 

[AnandaHya]

OK lets look at the text and give you a timeline for its fulfillment?

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. Paul writes concerning false teacher, Apostles and the Spirit of the Antichrist or lawless one is working even in the early church.

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet

. Revelation 6: 3-4 speaks of this by the second seal..
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Third Seal


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Persecution of saints, Revelation 12: 17, Book of Acts


The Great Tribulation


15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. will address this in more detail below because we first must understand what the Daniel 9 reference is really talking about....

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. Beast from the Earth Revelation 13: 11-18

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven

, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Revelation 12: 4

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Revelation 10-12

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

THIS generation referring to the one Jesus was born into.

now let us look at Daniel 9 and then go back to the verses in Matthew 24 that make reference to it.

Daniel 9
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
refers to JESUS and His NEW covenant that he CONFIRMS with His people[. He began teaching at the age of thirty for how long before His cruxification?

But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
Jesus is nailed to the cross and made an end to sacrifice by being the ONE final sacrifice for the remission of sins


And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Says SHALL BE ONE not "on the wing of abomination HE makes desolate" talking about someone else here.
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

what has been determined?

Daniel 9
24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression, do you know what "the transgression" is?
To make an end of sins, through Faith in Christ and His atoning work on the cross for the remission of sins
To make reconciliation for iniquity, receiving the Holy Spirit that allows us to cry out Abba Father
To bring in everlasting righteousness, through propiation of Christ's righteousness
To seal up vision and prophecy, the book of Revelation
And to anoint the Most Holy. the crowning of Jesus and the casting out of Satan

Revelation 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

praise GOD Almighty!