a Question for the Premillennialists

[eternally-gratefull]

that is because you inserted things.

for example the False prophet was cast into the FIRE. only Satan was tossed into the bottomless pit...

Yes. a bottomless pit ( I accidentally added false prophet). Also called the abyss. A place where satan can have no influence. Have no power. and can not make war with anyone. Yet we are told over and over again, The churches battle is against satan. He is freely roaming the earth like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour. He is in not pit now. He is free. only held in check by the HS.

did you not read Revelations 21 when NEW Jerusalem descended from Heaven to Earth?

Rev 21 says God destroys earth. and makes a new one. And john saw a new jerusalem come down (it never says it comes to earth)

All this happens

After the tribulation
after the battle
after the second coming of Christ
after the 1000 year reign of Christ
after satan is re-released and again convinces nations to rise against Christ and his people
after this rebellion is crushed with a shot being fired, by fire from heaven.
after the final judgment

Jesus is NOW ruling there in HEAVEN but when HE destroys Satan after he has been released ,then He will destroy the world and make a NEW Earth and a NEW Heaven.

Satan has not yet been bound, He is roaming freely. Fighting a war against God, and his church, and Gods elect (isreal) he has been since Christ left.

Its what the BIBLE clearly states. Just read Revelation 20-22

Well why not read rev 12 - 19 as all this happens before rev 20.. or do we ignore that and the rest of scripture??

people like to forget that after the 1000 years SATAN IS RELEASED and there is a battle where JESUS sends FIRE FROM HEAVEN to destroy them.

And you forget that after the tribulation. Jesus comes riding on a horse and destroys the first world army to come against jerusalem. And THEN he reigns for 1000 years..

So whether you believe the 1000 years is past present or future there is still a period AFTER that time when Satan deceives people before GOD judges and destroy this old world and replaces it.

Yes this is true. But is not the topic that I knew of..

 

[AnandaHya]

Satan was allowed to be free to influence the Beast and the False prophet so they would destroy BABYLON who was the False Temple worship in Jerusalem.

After God's judgment upon fleshly Israel who was the Great Harlot and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, the false prophet and the beast were caught and destroyed and SATAN was BOUND.

None of the NT writings are AFTER the destruction of the temple so for them this would be FUTURE.

look at the book of Acts Paul still talks at the temple and it had not been destroyed yet. It is believed that Paul was killed around 64 AD before the great fire in Roman and before the intense persecution of Christians by Nero by Imperial decree because he blamed the fire on them.

therefore I will go over the chapters 12-19 for you if you like.

Its still basic in that I'm not sure about my words to express it but if I mistype something I apologize ahead of time. you can just ask for clarification.

i'll do it in another thread if you don't mind...

 

[shroom2]

Order of events from a premillennial dispensationalist point of view.

1) Christ's first coming, death, resurrection, and ascension, ~2000 years ago

2) Day of Pentecost, birthday of the Christian church, the body of Christ

------- this is where we are now-------

3) The rapture, where Christ will return to gather the church. He will not return to earth, but we will meet him in the air.

4) The trib. This is where events in Revelation will begin to happen, including the seals, trumpets, bowls, etc. The antichrist makes his appearance. It will be a terrible time. I do not believe we will be here.

5) Christ's second coming TO earth. We will be returning with him. He will fight armageddon. The antichrist will be destroyed. The resurrection of the just will happen, and Christ will then set up the millennial kingdom which will last 1000 literal years. The devil will be bound.

6) The millennial kingdom will be ruled by Christ here on earth. People living here will be Christians, resurrected OT believers, and those who make it through the trib. Christians and OT saints will be in their new spirit powered (rather than soul) bodies. People who make it through the trib will still be flesh and blood. They will procreate and die. Living conditions will be ideal. Plenty to eat, safety, no sickness, no devil.

7) At the end of the 1000 years the devil will be released. Even though the past 1000 years will have been spent in perfect living conditions, he will be able amass a huge army to go against Jerusalem. This will be made up of descendents of the flesh and blood people who make it through the trib. It will prove the depravity of man: that even in perfect living conditions, people will be deceived into rebellion.

8) Before the army is able to attack, God will destroy them with fire from heaven. The devil will be destroyed.

9) The great white throne judgement, where -every- person (not already raised) will be raised from the dead and judged. Those that will not pass muster will be tossed into the lake of fire and destroyed.

10) This heaven and earth pass away, and the new heaven and earth show up. New Jerusalem descends.

11) We will live -forever- WITH God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless.

 

[AnandaHya]

did this happen IN Heaven or On Earth?

Revelation 19

Heaven Exults over Babylon

1 After these things I heard[a] a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both[c] small and great!”
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Christ on a White Horse


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated


17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

so anyone see ON Earth anywhere there?

Why do people think this is Christ "second coming"? the war takes place IN HEAVEN. the Armies are IN HEAVEN. Notice the lack of Satan being present? because he was CAST out of HEAVEN before then.

 

[cronjecj]

actually it is 2 comings.

1 coming to set up his spiritual kingdom (via the cross)
2 coming to set up his earthly kingdom ( 1000 years in length)

there is no third coming. He destroys the final battle while he is already here. then comes judgment.

There will not be an earthly kingdom,
the kingdom is now (spiritually) in us.

What about the parable? according
to the parable: immediately after His
2nd coming (the harvest) he destroys
the wicked and gather his sheep into
His barn. (no thousand years reign on
the old earth)

Jesus will make a new heaven and earth
when He comes a 2nd time.

He will not rule on this old earth because
His kingdom is not of this world. John 18:36 (KJV)

..thus he makes everything new when He comes
after judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Satan was allowed to be free to influence the Beast and the False prophet so they would destroy BABYLON who was the False Temple worship in Jerusalem.

Many problems with this line of thought.
1. Who was the beast and false prophet in AD 70. And what kind of "great miracles" did they perform which would fool even the elect?
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those[e] who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[f] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
When did all these things take place?
2. Who mourned over the death of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple? (the world hated the jew as much then as it does today)
3. Who claimed Jerusalem and Israel was the harlot? She played the harlot with true babylon, She was the cheating spouse not the whore itself.
4. Do you not think the harlot still lives today? Did paganism die when the temple was destroyed?
5. Again. Who in the world mourned? Christ mourned. But not for the reason John says the world would mourn in rev 17-18.

After God's judgment upon fleshly Israel who was the Great Harlot and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, the false prophet and the beast were caught and destroyed and SATAN was BOUND.

Satan is bound? Thats funny, so we do not have to worry about satan coming after us to devour us like a rouring lion? Satan no longer can decieve nations? Where is the peace that was promised after satan was bound? Seems like he is still in control of many, all we have to do is look at the evil in the world. You don't think Hitler had some sort of satanic influence?

And again. Israel was not the harlot. She played with the harlot. The harlot system is babylon. And is still being played today!

None of the NT writings are AFTER the destruction of the temple so for them this would be FUTURE.

That would be fine. But far to many of the prophesies concerning these times have still not been fulfilled. So are still future.
It sure did not appear that God through the earth protected the woman (Israel) who gave birth to Christ. so that satan would turn his anger on the church (her offspring) (rev 12)

look at the book of Acts Paul still talks at the temple and it had not been destroyed yet. It is believed that Paul was killed around 64 AD before the great fire in Roman and before the intense persecution of Christians by Nero by Imperial decree because he blamed the fire on them.

So Nero was the false prophet or antiChrist who was the "son of perdition" who came after the church? Again, How was the woman (Israel) protected?

therefore I will go over the chapters 12-19 for you if you like.

Its still basic in that I'm not sure about my words to express it but if I mistype something I apologize ahead of time. you can just ask for clarification.

i'll do it in another thread if you don't mind...

I thought we had been doing that. If you want to open another thread thats fine, or can do it here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There will not be an earthly kingdom,
the kingdom is now (spiritually) in us.

What about the parable? according
to the parable: immediately after His
2nd coming (the harvest) he destroys
the wicked and gather his sheep into
His barn. (no thousand years reign on
the old earth)

Jesus will make a new heaven and earth
when He comes a 2nd time.

He will not rule on this old earth because
His kingdom is not of this world. John 18:36 (KJV)

..thus he makes everything new when He comes
after judgment.

1. Jesus does destroy evil, when he comes in his horse, and destroys the armies around jerusalem. Scripture tells us that there will be so many bodies it will take years to clean up (does not sound like the end to me. why clean up the carcassas if God is just going to destroy the earth?
2. There are two kingdoms. A spiritual. which will last forever. And has no end. And one which God makes clear lasts 1000 years. Why would god tell us it will be for 1000 years. when every place else he says his kingdom (spiritual) will be forever, and never end. Did God mess up?

 

[AnandaHya]

So Nero was the false prophet or antiChrist who was the "son of perdition" who came after the church? no the antichrist and the false prophet are not the same person and represents a Spiritual entity not a physical one. the Throne of GOD is not on Earth but in HEAVEN

Again, How was the woman (Israel) protected? by "falling asleep" did you notice what happened when the fifth seal was opened?

i will have to address the rest at when I have more time.

 

[cronjecj]

1. Jesus does destroy evil, when he comes in his horse, and destroys the armies around jerusalem. Scripture tells us that there will be so many bodies it will take years to clean up (does not sound like the end to me. why clean up the carcassas if God is just going to destroy the earth?
2. There are two kingdoms. A spiritual. which will last forever. And has no end. And one which God makes clear lasts 1000 years. Why would god tell us it will be for 1000 years. when every place else he says his kingdom (spiritual) will be forever, and never end. Did God mess up?

1. When Jesus comes He not only destroys
evil but the old heaven and earth too Rev 21.

2. There is only one kingdom, and that is the
Kingdom of God (wherever the Spirit is)

 

[AnandaHya]

Many problems with this line of thought.
1. Who was the beast and false prophet in AD 70. And what kind of "great miracles" did they perform which would fool even the elect?

oracle of Dephi

13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those[e] who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[f] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
When did all these things take place?

during the first century

2. Who mourned over the death of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple? (the world hated the jew as much then as it does today)

the demons and the priests who were her kings and merchants.

3. Who claimed Jerusalem and Israel was the harlot? She played the harlot with true babylon, She was the cheating spouse not the whore itself.

the Bible shows it.

4. Do you not think the harlot still lives today? Did paganism die when the temple was destroyed?

God had made Israel a spiritual queen on the Earth. why do the ten horns on the Beast hate the Harlot? they love paganism so how is does that work?

5. Again. Who in the world mourned? Christ mourned. But not for the reason John says the world would mourn in rev 17-18.

again the dominions, thrones of darkness mourned

Satan is bound?

was, pretty sure he is out and about now

Thats funny, so we do not have to worry about satan coming after us to devour us like a rouring lion? Satan no longer can decieve nations? Where is the peace that was promised after satan was bound? Seems like he is still in control of many, all we have to do is look at the evil in the world. You don't think Hitler had some sort of satanic influence?

human corrupt flesh is responsible for a lot. not all the evil in the world is due to Satan. mankind creates enough evil by themselves and their pride.

And again. Israel was not the harlot. She played with the harlot. The harlot system is babylon. And is still being played today!

That would be fine. But far to many of the prophesies concerning these times have still not been fulfilled. So are still future.
It sure did not appear that God through the earth protected the woman (Israel) who gave birth to Christ. so that satan would turn his anger on the church (her offspring) (rev 12)

So Nero was the false prophet or antiChrist who was the "son of perdition" who came after the church? Again, How was the woman (Israel) protected?


I thought we had been doing that. If you want to open another thread thats fine, or can do it here.

have to take my kids to the doctor but summary not all of Israel played the harlot there was a remnant. not all of the people rebelled with Korah either.

Answer the Nero thing earlier if you would like me to clarify any point you can ask and I'll try.

anyway have a blessed day.

 

[cronjecj]

human corrupt flesh is responsible for a lot. not all the evil in the world is due to Satan. mankind creates enough evil by themselves and their pride.

ana "the devil made me do it" sowy lolz

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oracle of Dephi

during the first century

Wow. So this guy had fire come down from heaven, and all the other great miracles scripture says he performed. Like making a statue of the beast talk?? And what was the mark of the beast people had to wear on hands or forehead, or they could not buy anything?

he demons and the priests who were her kings and merchants.

Scripture says it was MEN and NATIONS who mourned. how can we twist it to be demons? You do not think demons were HAPPY that jerusalem was destroyed? It was a victory for them!!

the Bible shows it.

No it does not. It shows Israel PLAYED THE HARLOT (Commited fornication with her) And that is why they were held in captivity under babylon. And why God did not walk with them even till this day.

If you are married and your spouse sleeps with a harlot. Can your husband be the harlot? Israel was supposed to be married to God. they cheated on him. They cheated with the harlot. They were not the harlot!

God had made Israel a spiritual queen on the Earth. why do the ten horns on the Beast hate the Harlot? they love paganism so how is does that work?

No. Where do you get this? wow I have heard everything now. God did not make them this. They cheated on him of their own free will. And they hate the harlot because they love paganism?? THE HARLOT IS PAGANISM. so they would LOVE THE HARLOT. your not making any sense here!

again the dominions, thrones of darkness mourned

You need to read again!
Rev 18:
9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you,[e] and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’
19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

There are no demons or thrones of darkness. These are real men, real rulers and merchants who got rich of her fornication. I am not sure how you can translate this to be demons.

was, pretty sure he is out and about now

if he is out and about, he is not bound in a bottomless pit!

human corrupt flesh is responsible for a lot. not all the evil in the world is due to Satan. mankind creates enough evil by themselves and their pride.

I agree. but to say satan has no influence is dangerous not only for the world. But for oursel ves personally. Because satan can take us down if we are not looking for his attacks. I have seen it many many times!

have to take my kids to the doctor but summary not all of Israel played the harlot there was a remnant. not all of the people rebelled with Korah either.

Answer the Nero thing earlier if you would like me to clarify any point you can ask and I'll try.

anyway have a blessed day.

Playing the harlot means you committed adultery WITH THE HARLOT. You can not play the harlot if you are the harlot yourself.

Israel is not the harlot. The babylonian system is the harlot. This is what Israel was doing and why they were punished by God. and are being punished today, Until they repent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. When Jesus comes He not only destroys
evil but the old heaven and earth too Rev 21.

You forgot one!

first. Scripture was not written in verse chapter form. Men added these. so you should read it like a book.
second. If you study rev 19 and 20 you will see a sequence. (especially if you remove the verse chapter form)

Rev 19:
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

If we stop here. You might have a point. But fortunately for those of us who really want to know. we can see it does not stop here. Because chapter 20 starts like this.

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

You see, IT IS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS BATTLE, AND Christ's RETURN WHEN SATAN IS BOUND. for how long?? 1000 years.

the battle you are speaking of does not happen until the end of the 1000 years:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

so we see, After the war of NATIONS in which they try to attack Jerusalem and are defeated by Christ's return (in which the birds are full of their flesh) we then see the 100 year kingdom. THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED.

After this. Satan is released. Another war is ATTEMPTED. but is stopped before it even gets going.

THEN the earth is destroyed and a new heaven and new earth (following judgment day)

You see, The THEN at the start of chapter 20 shows that it was a continuation of Thought to john. Not a new chapter or idea. it is saying. This happened first, THEN that happened.

2. There is only one kingdom, and that is the
Kingdom of God (wherever the Spirit is)

Thats your opinion. But scripture does not support this opinion.

 

[AnandaHya]

the BEAST and his ten horns HATED the Harlot. they did NOT love Her even though SHE rode upon them.

Revelation 17
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on[d] the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

The TEN HORN of the BEAST DESTROY the Harlot.

as for the kings being demons... perhaps you would like fallen angels or false Gods of the ancient world better?

they are the same thing and they get tossed in Tartarus the prison of false Gods or fallen angels.

I'll get you some scripture. I tend to read a lot and don't know the exact book and chapter I read it in

the Pharisees and others being merchants of the false temple religion claiming to be from God but really of the Harlot, we have these verses:

Revelation 18
11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you,[e] and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’

we know that the woman is not literal but a figurative or spiritual representation. Who buys and sells souls of men?

What does JESUS mean when He says this:

Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

what kind of gold are you buying from Jesus?

what kind of clothes does Jesus Bride wear? what are they made of?

Revelation 19
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the BEAST and his ten horns HATED the Harlot. they did NOT love Her even though SHE rode upon them.

Revelation 17
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on[d] the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

The TEN HORN of the BEAST DESTROY the Harlot.

So you will ignore the kings and merchants who LOVED the harlot and weeped over her death. and call them demons or whatever??

as for the kings being demons... perhaps you would like fallen angels or false Gods of the ancient world better?

It does not say that. It says the kings who commited fornication with her and lived in luxery. not fallen angels or false Gods. PEOPLE!

9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her

It says the merchants got rich by selling her goods. A fallen angel does not need money, nor can they get rich.

11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

Nice try though

they are the same thing and they get tossed in Tartarus the prison of false Gods or fallen angels.

They are not the same.

demons do not need money to live in luxery. nor do they sell goods and get rich. THEY ARE PEOPLE!

I'll get you some scripture. I tend to read a lot and don't know the exact book and chapter I read it in

you can get all you want. It will not make a king of the earth, or merchant from men equal demons or fallen gods. your twisting scripture!

the Pharisees and others being merchants of the false temple religion claiming to be from God but really of the Harlot, we have these verses:

Revelation 18
11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you,[e] and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’

we know that the woman is not literal but a figurative or spiritual representation. Who buys and sells souls of men?

the woman is the pagan system. She is the harlot. the system or religion which is apposed to God and gets people to play the harlot with her. As she did the jews. The jews were not the harlot. They played with the harlot system, by bringing it back to jerusalem with them when they left babylon. The system is still alive today, it has not been destroyed. and men all over the world are getting rich off of her goods.

What does JESUS mean when He says this:

Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

He is talking about using an ointment to heal your blind eyes. He is using a metaphore. Gold is refined, which makes it pure. he is telling us to look for pure gold, not to look for the stuff which will not endure.

what kind of gold are you buying from Jesus?

I am not buying any Gold from anyone. I am making sure my eyes are not sick with blindness, and looking for doctrines which will refine me and which will last forever.

what kind of clothes does Jesus Bride wear? what are they made of?

The righteousness of Christ. also called the new body, clothed in Gods righteousness.

You still have not proven your point. Your making men demons. Your making a spouse a whore instead of the whore the spouse cheats with. Your all over the place.

 

[AnandaHya]

you are not paying attention.

It doesn't seem you care enough to listen.

there is the Harlot and there is the Bride

There is the kings and merchants of the Harlot and there is the Beast and his ten horns

The Bride is the Church who has married JESUS and made a NEW Covenant with Him.

The harlot and the kings and merchants love each other and live together WHERE? In this physical world or in the spiritual realm?

9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her



the beast and his ten horns who are KINGS HATE all of them.

how can the Harlot be paganism if the ten horns of the Beast HATE the Harlot?

 

[AnandaHya]

here I'll borrow Ada's post.

the HARLOT would be the blood descendents of Abraham listed here whose spiritual father is Satan.:

---------------------------------------------------
rejected Him 1 Kings 8:7
forsaken Him 1 Kings 8:8
served strange gods 1 Kings 8:8
hast not kept the commandments of the Lord 1 Kings 13:13
forsaken the commandments of God 3 Kings 18:18
mocked the messengers of God 2 Chronicles36:16
despised God’s Word 2 Chronicles36:16
misused the prophets 2 Chronicles36:16
provoked God to wrath 2 Nehemiah 9:26
departed from God 2 Nehemiah 9:26
threw God’s law behind their backs 2 Nehemiah 9:26
killed the prophets, who admonished them earnestly to return to God 2 Nehemiah 9:26
guilty of great blasphemies 2 Nehemiah 9:26
forsaken the Lord Isaiah 65:11
forgotten His holy mountain ( the commandments from Mt. Sinai) Isaiah 65:11
didn't listen to Him Isaiah 65:11
did evil Isaiah 65:11
didn't answer Him Isaiah 65:11
chosen the things that displease God Isaiah65:11
forsake God Jeremias 2:13
made up their own religion "that holds no water" Jeremias 2:13
had not done God's work Ezekiel 20:23
cast off His laws Ezekiel 20:23
their eyes were after the idols of their fathers Ezekiel 20:23
defiled Israel with idols Ezekiel 36:16ff
profaned His Holy Name Ezekiel 36:16ff
lying pen of the scribes wrote falsehood Jeremias 8:7ff
they all dealt deceitfully Jeremias 8:10
they voided the Covenant Jeremias 31:31-32
sacrificed to idols Jeremias 44:23
not walked in His law Jeremias 44:23
disobeyed God's commandments Jeremias 44:23
disobeyed God's Law Baruch 2:10
the people of Israel will deny the Messiah Daniel 9:25ff
no truth in Israel Hosea 4:1-2
no mercy in Israel Hosea 4:1-2
no knowledge of God in Israel Hosea 4:1-2
sacrificed to Baalim and other idols Hosea 11:2
He hates their festivities, sacrifices, and songs Amos 5:20-24
covetous in all the Israelites Amos 9:1
departed from the Law Malachi 2:8-12
made void the Covenant Malachi 2:8-12
not kept God's ways Malachi 2:8-12
despised their brothers Malachi 2:8-12
committed abominations Malachi 2:8-12
profaned the holiness of the Lord Malachi 2:8-12
married the daughter of strange gods Malachi 2:8-12


accused by Moses John 5:45-47
adversaries to all men I Thessalonians 2:14
agents of the devil John 8:44
blind Matthew 23:26
blind guides Matthew 23:16, 17, 19, 24
children of Hell Matthew 23:15
children of the devil John 8:44
crucifiers Matthew 23:34
dangerous leaven Matthew 16:6-12; Mark 8:15; Luke 12:1
defectors Matthew 15:6; Mark 7:9, 13; John 5:45, 46, 47
deicides I Thessalonians 2:14-15
dogs Matthew 7:6; Revelation 22:16
foolish Matthew 23:17
full of dead men's bones Matthew 23:27
haters of God John 15:24,25
hypocrites Matthew 6:2, 5; 15:7; 22:18; 23:13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27, 28, 29; Mark 7:6; Luke 13:15
idolaters Revelation 22:16
iniquitous Matthew 23:28
killers of the just Matthew 23:35
killers of the prophets Matthew 23:37; I Thessalonians 2:14-15
liars John 8:44, 55; Revelation 3:9, 22:16
murderers Matthew 23:31; Revelation 22:15
offspring of vipers Luke 3:7
purveyors of fables Titus 1:13-14
serpents Matthew 23:33
sorcerers Revelation 22:16
swine Matthew 7:6
synagogue of Satan Revelation 2:9, 3:9
unchaste Revelation 22:16
unclean Matthew 23:25
vipers Matthew 3:7; 12:34; 23:33
void the commandments of God for the traditions of men Mark 7:8-9
whited sepulchers Matthew 23:27

axe laid to the root Matthew 3:10
cast into the fire Matthew 3:10; 7:19; Luke 3:9
condemned Mark 16:16
cut down Matthew 3:10
in vain do they worship me Matthew 15:9; Mark 7:7
judgment of Hell Matthew 23:33
shall be broken Matthew 21:44
shall be ground into powder Matthew 21:44
the kingdom of God shall be taken from you Matthew 21:43
woe Matthew 23:13, 14, 15, 16, 23, 25, 27; Luke 11:42, 46, 47, 52
wrath Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7; 21:23; St. Paul in I Thessalonians 2:16
you do not enter the kingdom of Heaven Matthew 23:13

If you can't see who the Harlot is then there is not point in discussing the rest.

If you can't see that JESUS told YOU to buy GOLD refined by the fire, white garments and eye salve, then you won't understand what the merchants were trying to sell.

you know that eye salve is not just some vaseline but of a spiritual nature, well so is the list of the merchants wares. especially since they trade in the souls of men.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you are not paying attention.

It doesn't seem you care enough to listen.

You know something. This is probably why people get so mad at you. Just because one does not agree with you does not mean they are not listening! Get off your high horse missy!!

there is the Harlot and there is the Bride

A harlot is the whore who the bride commits adultry with.

Isreal was supposed to be the bride. she played the harlot WITH THE WHORE

or do you not understand this??

There is the kings and merchants of the Harlot and there is the Beast and his ten horns

The kings and merchants where not the harlot. They used her and she used them!

The Bride is the Church who has married JESUS and made a NEW Covenant with Him.

Isreal was the first bride. She gave birth to Christ. NOT THE CHURCH

The harlot and the kings and merchants love each other and live together WHERE? In this physical world or in the spiritual realm?

In this world. the kings and merchants were of this world. The harlot system is of this world. It started in babylon, thus where it gets its name.

the beast and his ten horns who are KINGS HATE all of them.

how can the Harlot be paganism if the ten horns of the Beast HATE the Harlot?

because the harlot would not follow the beast and false prophet. so they have to destroy her before they set up THERE RELIGION. She is powerful, and could be a threat to them.

the beast and false prophet declare themselves to be god. no other religion would accept this.,

when they enter the holy of holies. they commit the abomination and declare themselves to be the chosen one (messiah)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here I'll borrow Ada's post.

the HARLOT would be the blood descendents of Abraham listed here whose spiritual father is Satan.:



If you can't see who the Harlot is then there is not point in discussing the rest.

If you can't see that JESUS told YOU to buy GOLD refined by the fire, white garments and eye salve, then you won't understand what the merchants were trying to sell.

you know that eye salve is not just some vaseline but of a spiritual nature, well so is the list of the merchants wares. especially since they trade in the souls of men.

Isreal was Gods chosen people. they were supposed to be the bride. They PLAYED THE HARLOT. and were (and still are) being punished for their harlotry. THEY are not the harlot. The harlot itself wants you to think this. That is why they declared her the harlot. to get you to stop looking at them. where do you think this faulty belief comes from??

if you can't see this. there is no helping you.

 

[AnandaHya]

You know something. This is probably why people get so mad at you. Just because one does not agree with you does not mean they are not listening! Get off your high horse missy!!

because you are being illogical and no you haven't listened at all because you haven't addressed any of the points made but continue posting what you believe.

Is the Gold, white garments and Eye salve literal or spiritual items being sold?

A harlot is the whore who the bride commits adultry with.

Isreal was supposed to be the bride. she played the harlot WITH THE WHORE

or do you not understand this??

I understand what you are saying but I believe you are WRONG. the BRIDE of CHRIST is the CHURCH. Has ALWAYS Been the church. GOD married Israel who is the WOMAN clothed in twelve stars in Revelation 12.

do you believe that WOMAN and the Harlot the same person?

The kings and merchants where not the harlot. They used her and she used them!

didn't say they were. said they were located in the same realm as She is, in the SPIRIT realm.

Isreal was the first bride. She gave birth to Christ. NOT THE CHURCH

yes SHE is the woman in Revelation 12 NOT the Harlot.

In this world. the kings and merchants were of this world. The harlot system is of this world. It started in babylon, thus where it gets its name.

no they are in the spirit realm. and yes the corrupt part of Israel, the Harlot, the Vipers and the children of Satan who make up the Harlot got most of their beliefs from ancient Babylon.

because the harlot would not follow the beast and false prophet. so they have to destroy her before they set up THERE RELIGION. She is powerful, and could be a threat to them.

why was she riding them then? have you figured that out yet?

the beast and false prophet declare themselves to be god. no other religion would accept this.,

when they enter the holy of holies. they commit the abomination and declare themselves to be the chosen one (messiah)

[/B][/COLOR]

you can keep your two kingdoms belief, help Satan set up a kingdom on Earth to do war with Jesus and pretend it Christian. Create another Harlot and demonize people as being followers of the Beast to justify hatred and defending a fake Earthly kingdom instead of showing God's love and telling them of JESUS and His salvation.

the reason why they didn't accept Jesus is because they were expecting an Earthly Kingdom and reign with Him.

It hasn't changed much.

People still look to have the power of ruling over sinners instead of looking to the New Heaven and the New Earth when all evil will be destroyed, when no one will be above another but Jesus will walk amongst His people.