a Question for the Premillennialists

[shroom2]

However,
CHapter 19 is not the last battle.before Jesus destroys this world and creates a NEW Heaven and NEW Earth. Satan still is released and will deceive the world again.

That is correct. Armageddon comes at the end of the trib. The millennial kingdom will be set up, satan will be bound. Then at the end, he will amass an army against Jerusalem, and God will send fire from heaven to destroy them.

his favorite tactic is to pretend that prophecies that God has already fulfilled haven't happened and misuse scripture to get people to do things because of "promises" God made them that are sinful and testing and grieving to the Holy Spirit.

You must have typed that very fast.... His "favorite" tactic is promoting anything contrary to God's Word. The dead aren't really dead, Christ is reigning now, we are most of the way through Revelation. All false.

Like rule this Earthly sinful world in the Name of Christ before He comes back and destroys and replaces it all. Or fall for the lie that the Son of Perdition (who is Satan released from his bounds) is really Jesus returned to start the 1000 year earthly reign.

that's one of the methods Satan will use to gather his army against God and His people.

The millennial kingdom is still future. The battle of armageddon is not the same as the war in Rev 20:9. First will be the trib, then armageddon, then the millennial kingdom, then the final war, THEN the new heaven and earth.

 

[cronjecj]

Sure it does. The rapture will happen before the trib. The second coming happens at the end of the trib. Christians will already be with Christ.

there is no such thing as pretrib.

 

[cronjecj]

Some versions have the word "then" in Rev 20:1 (ESV)

Chapter 20 happens after chapter 19. It is AFTER armageddon that the millennial kingdom will be set up.

oh i forgot the translators of the ESV made an boo boo.

or they put the "THEN" there on purpose
to promote a LIE.

 

[cronjecj]

You judge EG for seeing. Don't you claim to "see"? Doesn't that make you guilty?

i didn't claim that i can see.

 

[AnandaHya]

That is correct. Armageddon comes at the end of the trib. The millennial kingdom will be set up, satan will be bound. Then at the end, he will amass an army against Jerusalem, and God will send fire from heaven to destroy them.

ok so at least you got that much of the BIble...

You must have typed that very fast.... His "favorite" tactic is promoting anything contrary to God's Word.

yes that is true. that is why it is good to read ALL of God's word

The dead aren't really dead, Christ is reigning now, we are most of the way through Revelation. All false.

no Jesus says that the dead are not dead but asleep and that HE is the resurrection did you forget these verses?

John 11:24-26New King James Version (NKJV)24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”*25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
[q

not everyone is alive who is dead but everyone who is in Christ never die even if their bodies do their spirits live forever and are just asleep until Jesus calls them awake. they have no part in the second death

The millennial kingdom is still future. The battle of armageddon is not the same as the war in Rev 20:9. First will be the trib, then armageddon,

those things have happened in HEAVEN. the saints who lived in Jesus generation now reign with Him in Heaven.

then the millennial kingdom,

which is in HEAVEN, you forgot the whole Satan bound thing and being released but you must have been typing fast.

then the final war, THEN the new heaven and earth.

yes we are now watching Satan gather his forces for that final war when JESUS will destroy everything wicked and make a NEW Earth and NEW Heaven and come down with His bride to rule the world which has no evil in it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the word THEN is not there, look again.

Rev 19 happens AFTER Rev 20.

wow, really?

Rev 19: 11 - 21

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i] and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20: 1-3 NKJV
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20: 1-2 NASB
1 Then I saw (A)an angel coming down from heaven, holding the (B)key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the (C)dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and (D)bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the (E)abyss, and shut it and (F)sealed it over him, so that he would (G)not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Rev 20: 1-3 ESV
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven,(A) holding in his hand the key to(B) the bottomless pit[a] and a great chain. 2And he seized(C) the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and(D) bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into(E) the pit, and shut it and(F) sealed it over him, so that(G) he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20 immediately follows rev 19. Or else John would have NOT said, THEN I saw an angel coming.

Again. Rev was NOT written in chapter or verse form. man separated the words. It was a letter. which flows. Adding the word "THEN" shows that it is a new paragraph, But the idea is still flowing in continuation.

Can't you see the flow?

in rev 19.

1. NOW John sees Jesus on his horse prepared for battle his robe dipped in blood.
2. THEN He sees the angel cry to the birds of heaven, saying come together to prepair for the supper of all the men who will die at the hands of "the king of Kings"
3. THEN he saw all the nations and their leaders "kings" gathered together to make war. And they are destroyed. The beast and false prophet who made many signs and miracles were captured and cast into the lake of fire. The rest (the kings and their armies who followed them( were destroyed, so many died, the birds ate their flesh and were filled.
4. THEN (chapter 20) He sees an angel who has keys to the bottomless pit grab satan and bind him for 1000 years.

ALL THESE THINGS Happened in succession. Satan the beast and the false prophet were captured at the same time. Two were cast into lake of fire. One was bound for 1000 years.

Try to twist scripture!!

 

[cronjecj]

wow, really?

Rev 19: 11 - 21

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i] and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20: 1-3 NKJV
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20: 1-2 NASB
1 Then I saw (A)an angel coming down from heaven, holding the (B)key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the (C)dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and (D)bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the (E)abyss, and shut it and (F)sealed it over him, so that he would (G)not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Rev 20: 1-3 ESV
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven,(A) holding in his hand the key to(B) the bottomless pit[a] and a great chain. 2And he seized(C) the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and(D) bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into(E) the pit, and shut it and(F) sealed it over him, so that(G) he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20 immediately follows rev 19. Or else John would have NOT said, THEN I saw an angel coming.

Again. Rev was NOT written in chapter or verse form. man separated the words. It was a letter. which flows. Adding the word "THEN" shows that it is a new paragraph, But the idea is still flowing in continuation.

Can't you see the flow?

in rev 19.

1. NOW John sees Jesus on his horse prepared for battle his robe dipped in blood.
2. THEN He sees the angel cry to the birds of heaven, saying come together to prepair for the supper of all the men who will die at the hands of "the king of Kings"
3. THEN he saw all the nations and their leaders "kings" gathered together to make war. And they are destroyed. The beast and false prophet who made many signs and miracles were captured and cast into the lake of fire. The rest (the kings and their armies who followed them( were destroyed, so many died, the birds ate their flesh and were filled.
4. THEN (chapter 20) He sees an angel who has keys to the bottomless pit grab satan and bind him for 1000 years.

ALL THESE THINGS Happened in succession. Satan the beast and the false prophet were captured at the same time. Two were cast into lake of fire. One was bound for 1000 years.

Try to twist scripture!!

there are versions that has no "THEN" in there.

even if John meant "THEN" or "AND" it's still not to say it's the sequence from Rev 19.

can you see the flow?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ana, this is the trouble of dispensationalists they see revelation as literal.

This is the problem with people who do not understand prophesy. They have to symbolise it to make it match their beliefs. When prophesy should be taken literally. God might use symbolic terms such as animals (in Daniels prophesies concerning earthly kingdoms) but the earthly kingdoms literally represented everything the prophesies said they would.

One thing which has never been done in prophesy is to use time as a symbol to represent something else. Time has always been interpreted and fulfilled literally. To think God would change the way he interprets his prophesies concerning time is just not founded in scripture or anything else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No Jonathan that is where we disagree. I believe that the wheat and tares get separated during the WHITE THRONE Judgement happens after Satan is released and has deceived the nations again, after He was bound for a 1000 years. the wicked are not judged and destroyed until that time when they come before the white throne judgment. they just suffer and die, unrepentant and cursing God. all evil is not destroyed until the White throne and the NEW Earth and NEW Heaven is established.

This I agree with, Especially the LITERAL 1000 years.

Evil is still on this earth, even though peace abounds for 1000 years. But eveil shows its ugly face as soon as the master of evil is set free. Then evil is destroyed. Then the final judgment and the SECOND death!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

..because you claim that you can see your guilt remains. John 9:41 (KJV)

That could be said for you also my friend. Just because you claim you see does not make it so. You have failed to prove any of your points. (At least in my mind), Ad hominem attacks such as these will not help your cause! or make you any more right.

 

[cronjecj]

That could be said for you also my friend. Just because you claim you see does not make it so. You have failed to prove any of your points. (At least in my mind), Ad hominem attacks such as these will not help your cause! or make you any more right.

im not making myself any more right,
i don't think my eyes are wide open but still learning
but you said your eyes are open WIDE open.

since you claim to see you don't need help from
anyone ever again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The trouble amills have is that they see revelation as symbolic. Parts of it are, but you cannot symbolize everything away.

It comes from the father of ammills. Who stopped taking a literal view of scripture sometime at the end of the 3rd century, and started to symbolize it so they could make their pagan ritual and beliefs added to the gospel and church of Christ and form a new church, which ruled with an iron fist for over 1000 years. This is where ammil started. They held the Church (gentile taking over representing God to the world from Israel because of israels unbelief) as being Israels replacement, including their hatred of these jews, and thus had to spiritualize Gods promises (earthly) to the nation of Israel to make this belief stand.

Since the OT, and even Paul in the NT (rom 9-11) prophesy that Israel would fail misserably, and God would give his representative authority to the gentiles because of this unbelief. There will come a time when these gentiles will also "fall away" and turn from God as the jews did. And when this happens, God will remove the blindness of the eyes of the nation of Israel, Return them to the land promised their fathers, and fulfill his promises to them. by setting up his kingdom (earthly reign) in their land and in their city (jerusalem)

The new church had to reject this belief, so they took them as symbols, and changed the meaning of prophesy because prophesy did not support their new belief. Just like they did by adding works to the gospel of Grace, by symbolising eternal life, so it is not eternal. etc etc.

Unfortunately. after the reformation. many people took this symbolic prophesy with them.

 

[cronjecj]

This is the problem with people who do not understand prophesy.

so you understand prophecy to the detail and everyone else who disagrees with you don't. hmm... VOW i shouldn't have doubted you because you know everything about prophecy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

However,
CHapter 19 is not the last battle.before Jesus destroys this world and creates a NEW Heaven and NEW Earth. Satan still is released and will deceive the world again. his favorite tactic is to pretend that prophecies that God has already fulfilled haven't happened and misuse scripture to get people to do things because of "promises" God made them that are sinful and testing and grieving to the Holy Spirit.

Like rule this Earthly sinful world in the Name of Christ before He comes back and destroys and replaces it all. Or fall for the lie that the Son of Perdition (who is Satan released from his bounds) is really Jesus returned to start the 1000 year earthly reign.

that's one of the methods Satan will use to gather his army against God and His people.

No one claims it is the last battle (that I know of) so i am not sure where you get this.

sequence of events.

1. Peace treaty made with many for one week (7 years)
2. In the middle of this treaty, the one who made peaces declares himself to be God and the messiah, and commits the abomination of desolation.
3. Great tribulation on earth, as not only does satan spread forth his wrath on Gods people (the woman and her offspring) God deals with evil with many judgments (seal, trumpet and scrolls) all of which could not possible have happened on earth yet,
4. The great persecution of Israel causes them to call out to God, and God opens their eyes so they see Jesus for who he really is (as God does many of us, it is great distress which causes us to seek god)
5. Toward the end. two great battles happen in the promised land 1. Two armies come toward jerusalem, and are destroyed miraculously. The second being Armageddon, when all the worlds armies come to battle, and Christ returns. (rev 19)
6. At Christs return, all evil is destroyed from the face of the earth. The false prophet and beast are cast into hell. Satan is captured and bound for 1000 years.
7. At the same time, whoever "endured to the end shall be saved" enters this kingdom rule with Christ. And as rev says, Christ rules with an iron fist. All weapons of battle are destroyed. and no man can make war.
8. At the end of this rule. satan is released. And again satan dicieves the nations to go to battle with God and his holy city (jerusalem) only this time. nothing gets going, because God destroyes them where they stand (the final battle)
9. This earth and heaven is destroyed.
10 The final judgment
11 A new heaven and new earth, Which Christ ruling forever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh i forgot the translators of the ESV made an boo boo.

or they put the "THEN" there on purpose
to promote a LIE.

yet the word "Then" in the origional text. So you call the origional Author (John) a liar.

the NIV uses the word and. The meaning still stands. Just like it did in rev 19: 19

This happened. "AND" that happened.

Still shows progression from one thing to another.

and you call us blind!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

there are versions that has no "THEN" in there.

even if John meant "THEN" or "AND" it's still not to say it's the sequence from Rev 19.

can you see the flow?

lol. again, I ask you. do you know how to use language.


This happens, "THEN" or "AND" That happens.

it shows a sequence of events.

yes, i see the flow clearly. You can't only because your belief system would crash and burn.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

im not making myself any more right,
i don't think my eyes are wide open but still learning
but you said your eyes are open WIDE open.

since you claim to see you don't need help from
anyone ever again.

I never made that claim. I am still learning also. I just do not see where you have proven your point. If i did not want to DISCUSS Gods word. I would not be hear. You asked a question, I answered. that is called discussion!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so you understand prophecy to the detail and everyone else who disagrees with you don't. hmm... VOW i shouldn't have doubted you because you know everything about prophecy.

again, you have failed to prove anything.

why is it you only respond to this one sentence. and not everything i said. I respond to everything you post.

You see this is the way people do when they can't object to what others are saying, they pic and chose words or sentences out of a whole context. and attack it. and do not response to anythi8ng else. It is called making an ad hominem attack.

as I said earlier. it does not help your cause.

I do not care if you believe me or not. It does not matter, it is not a salvation issue. I am just explaining why I can't believe youl do with it what you want. But attacking me is not going to help you.

 

[cronjecj]

No one claims it is the last battle (that I know of) so i am not sure where you get this.

sequence of events.

1. Peace treaty made with many for one week (7 years)
2. In the middle of this treaty, the one who made peaces declares himself to be God and the messiah, and commits the abomination of desolation.
3. Great tribulation on earth, as not only does satan spread forth his wrath on Gods people (the woman and her offspring) God deals with evil with many judgments (seal, trumpet and scrolls) all of which could not possible have happened on earth yet,
4. The great persecution of Israel causes them to call out to God, and God opens their eyes so they see Jesus for who he really is (as God does many of us, it is great distress which causes us to seek god)
5. Toward the end. two great battles happen in the promised land 1. Two armies come toward jerusalem, and are destroyed miraculously. The second being Armageddon, when all the worlds armies come to battle, and Christ returns. (rev 19)
6. At Christs return, all evil is destroyed from the face of the earth. The false prophet and beast are cast into hell. Satan is captured and bound for 1000 years.
7. At the same time, whoever "endured to the end shall be saved" enters this kingdom rule with Christ. And as rev says, Christ rules with an iron fist. All weapons of battle are destroyed. and no man can make war.
8. At the end of this rule. satan is released. And again satan dicieves the nations to go to battle with God and his holy city (jerusalem) only this time. nothing gets going, because God destroyes them where they stand (the final battle)
9. This earth and heaven is destroyed.
10 The final judgment
11 A new heaven and new earth, Which Christ ruling forever.

so there will be sinners left after the second advent for a 1000 years?

not according to Matthew 25:31-46.

When Jesus comes a 2nd time He will gather ALL nations and separate them two groups..

thus there will be NO sinners left after the second advent followed by immediate judgement.

 

[cronjecj]

I never made that claim. I am still learning also. I just do not see where you have proven your point. If i did not want to DISCUSS Gods word. I would not be hear. You asked a question, I answered. that is called discussion!

but you tell others "to open their eyes and see"

Open your eyes and see.

yet you claim yours are open. Wide.

They are open. Wide.

if i disagree with you does that mean i see less the you do?