a Question for the Premillennialists

[cronjecj]

lol. again, I ask you. do you know how to use language.

lol. again, i ask you. do you know how to use a language.

This happens, "THEN" or "AND" That happens.

this happens, "THEN" or "AND" that happens but it's still not to say Rev 20 is in sequence with Rev 19 as it is a whole new chapter on it's own.

yes, i see the flow clearly. You can't only because your belief system would crash and burn.

there you go again, you see clearly.

and my believe system would crash and burn only because i disagree with you?

 

[cronjecj]

and you call us blind!!

i didn't call anyone blind i just said you claim that you can see, so you don't need any help.

 

[shroom2]

there is no such thing as pretrib.

Sure there is. The church has been saved from the wrath to come.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so there will be sinners left after the second advent for a 1000 years?

Are there any people besides Christ who are sinless? Are you a sinner?

not according to Matthew 25:31-46.

When Jesus comes a 2nd time He will gather ALL nations and separate them two groups..

thus there will be NO sinners left after the second advent followed by immediate judgement.

You Assume this is the 2nd advent. You do know what one does when they assume do you not??

This is the final judgment. Scripture talks of many things before this takes place. Rev 19 and 20 for example. Plus many other places which speak of this. In fact. Jesus says after he returns that the rest of the dead will not be ressurected for 1000 years. I can't ignore these passages just to make scripture match my belief. Sorry

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i didn't call anyone blind i just said you claim that you can see, so you don't need any help.

So you claim you can see. and its ok. I claim I can see and I am a fool. See the hypocracy in your line of reasoning?

 

[shroom2]

so you understand prophecy to the detail and everyone else who disagrees with you don't.

Isn't that pretty much EXACTLY what you believe? You think you understand and everyone else is wrong.

Truth be told, most people who are convinced in what they believe think other people are wrong. The standard has to be God's word. But then, most of those same people believe their interpretation of scripture is the "correct" one.

What to do? It's a conundrum.

"Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this happens, "THEN" or "AND" that happens but it's still not to say Rev 20 is in sequence with Rev 19 as it is a whole new chapter on it's own.

Yet again. I ask you to look at history. JOHN DID NOT WRITE REVELATION BY PLACING VERSES AND CHAPTER BREAKS. MEN LONG AFTER JOHN WROTE IT DID,

So men made chapter 20 a new chapter. not the origional author. Yet another reason to question what your saying, because you can not even comprehend this!

there you go again, you see clearly.

and my believe system would crash and burn only because i disagree with you?

Like I said, I could care less what you believe, you do not have to believe me, Your the one who states things like that, and makes those attacks.

John was not wrritten in chapters (they do not if I remember even have paragraph or punctuation in greek) Men did. so when I read scripture, i read it as if it is one letter. when I read the end of 19 and 20 it flows, as it should. If you can't see it. i won't judge you, Like you are doing me, I will just say I can't see it as you do.

ps. your attitude stinks!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Isn't that pretty much EXACTLY what you believe? You think you understand and everyone else is wrong.

Truth be told, most people who are convinced in what they believe think other people are wrong. The standard has to be God's word. But then, most of those same people believe their interpretation of scripture is the "correct" one.

What to do? It's a conundrum.

"Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled"

this is supposed to be why we have places like this to discuss our beliefs. of course every time you do. you will be attacked by someone.

 

[shroom2]

this is supposed to be why we have places like this to discuss our beliefs. of course every time you do. you will be attacked by someone.

True enough.

 

[cronjecj]

Are there any people besides Christ who are sinless? Are you a sinner?

not talking bout now, but after the second advent.

will we be ruling with Christ on the old earth for a literal thousand years?

 

[cronjecj]

So you claim you can see. and its ok. I claim I can see and I am a fool. See the hypocracy in your line of reasoning?

did not once claim i can see but you did which makes you seem superior above everyone that disagrees with you.

 

[cronjecj]

i won't judge you, Like you are doing me, I will just say I can't see it as you do.

ps. your attitude stinks!

you tell someone to open their eyes yet you say you don't judge like i do.

if you have to judge you can do so with scripture to see what they say has truth in it, John 7:24, not things like "open your eyes"

thanks for the comment at the end of your reply.

 

[AnandaHya]

This I agree with, Especially the LITERAL 1000 years.

Evil is still on this earth, even though peace abounds for 1000 years. But eveil shows its ugly face as soon as the master of evil is set free. Then evil is destroyed. Then the final judgment and the SECOND death!

I think the main thing we differ on is what the world would or does look like when Jesus rules it for an IRON Rod. People think it will be peace because Satan is bound but the Bible does not promise that. that is only promised in the NEW Earth and the NEW Heaven. NOT the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

what verses do you have that talks about the 1000 year reign that promises what you believe of peace and not evil?

 

[AnandaHya]

No one claims it is the last battle (that I know of) so i am not sure where you get this.

sequence of events.

1. Peace treaty made with many for one week (7 years)
2. In the middle of this treaty, the one who made peaces declares himself to be God and the messiah, and commits the abomination of desolation.

we already discussed how we disagree on your reading on Daniel 9, don't see the point of rehashing the point that I believe JESUS fulfilled it.

3. Great tribulation on earth, as not only does satan spread forth his wrath on Gods people (the woman and her offspring) God deals with evil with many judgments (seal, trumpet and scrolls) all of which could not possible have happened on earth yet,

yes but you refuse to actually consider how because you want it to be on Earth and not about the war in Heaven where JESUS went and took control and cast out Satan and his fallen angels. the whole thrones, principalities,etc in heavenly places. its so much easier to ignore those verses.

4. The great persecution of Israel causes them to call out to God, and God opens their eyes so they see Jesus for who he really is (as God does many of us, it is great distress which causes us to seek god)

Jesus called out His redeemed before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. those who did not heed Jesus warning to leave Jerusalem when they saw the signs, suffered with unfaithful Israel, the Babylonian Whore when God poured His wrath upon her and allowed the Beast and his ten kings/horns to destroy her. The language is used in the OT to describe God's judgement on unfaithful Israel before the Babylonian exile and at other times as well. I'll go get them when I get a chance.

5. Toward the end. two great battles happen in the promised land 1. Two armies come toward jerusalem, and are destroyed miraculously. The second being Armageddon, when all the worlds armies come to battle, and Christ returns. (rev 19)

sigh....where does one begin....

Revelation 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated


17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

if you read the above verses the battle takes place in HEAVEN. the only mention of Earth is the Kings of the earth who are not kings but demons or most would call them fallen angels but you scoff at that thought.

Perhaps if I give you Bible verses showing who the Kings of the Earth are it might aid in our conversation. give me a minute. if my daughter is actually asleep. I'll search for the verses.

6. At Christs return, all evil is destroyed from the face of the earth. The false prophet and beast are cast into hell. Satan is captured and bound for 1000 years.

Jesus reigns IN HEAVEN. show me a verse that says JESUS is ON EARTH during the 1000 years?

7. At the same time, whoever "endured to the end shall be saved" enters this kingdom rule with Christ. And as rev says, Christ rules with an iron fist. All weapons of battle are destroyed. and no man can make war.

BIBLE verses where this is said about the 1000 year reign and not about the NEW Earth and NEW Heaven?

8. At the end of this rule. satan is released. And again satan dicieves the nations to go to battle with God and his holy city (jerusalem) only this time. nothing gets going, because God destroyes them where they stand (the final battle)

Jerusalem, God's beloved city is in HEAVEN. that's how it comes down out of Heaven in Chapter 21. where does it say Jesus and His saints come down to Earth?

9. This earth and heaven is destroyed.
10 The final judgment
11 A new heaven and new earth, Which Christ ruling forever.

we agree about that last part.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

not talking bout now, but after the second advent.

will we be ruling with Christ on the old earth for a literal thousand years?

And I am not talking about us. I am talking about the people who "Endure to the end" who go into the kingdom. And those who are born into this world during that same time.

 

[AnandaHya]

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

who are the Thrones, dominions, principalities or powers being referred to here?

Lets start with Thrones:
Psalm 103:19
The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.

Isaiah 14:13
For you have said in your heart: ‘ I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

oh look Lucifer has a THRONE. hmmmm....

Of course we have this verse too:

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.



Can Kings be considered rulers? someone help me with my language skills please, but I'm pretty sure Kings are considered rulers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the main thing we differ on is what the world would or does look like when Jesus rules it for an IRON Rod. People think it will be peace because Satan is bound but the Bible does not promise that. that is only promised in the NEW Earth and the NEW Heaven. NOT the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

what verses do you have that talks about the 1000 year reign that promises what you believe of peace and not evil?

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

Let me ask you sis. Why would jesus have to rule with an iron rod if there is no more evil in the world? If we have all been ressurected, given sinless bodies. and this world is the new earth. Christ will not have to rule anything. we would be sinless and unable to sin. So God would be our groom, not our ruler (speaking of people on the new earth)


The very fact God says Christ will rule with an iron rod after he returns proves there will still be sinners on earth after he comes to rule.

 

[cronjecj]

And I am not talking about us. I am talking about the people who "Endure to the end" who go into the kingdom. And those who are born into this world during that same time.

will Christ reign on the old earth a thousand years?

and how many judgments will there be in the future?

 

[cronjecj]

time for ice cream because it's getting hot in here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we already discussed how we disagree on your reading on Daniel 9, don't see the point of rehashing the point that I believe JESUS fulfilled it.

Um you made a claim I believed this was the last battle. I used daniel 9 to prove I did not.

It does not matter if we agree or not. You made a false claim against me, And I used scripture to prove my point. Maybe if you try to understand what I believe you would see that.

there are some creapy premillinial beliefs out there I disagree with. The problem is you put us all under the same hat and believe we all believe the same, which is NOT TRUE.

yes but you refuse to actually consider how because you want it to be on Earth and not about the war in Heaven where JESUS went and took control and cast out Satan and his fallen angels. the whole thrones, principalities,etc in heavenly places. its so much easier to ignore those verses.

Well instead of asking why. You just assume you know why? Do I ignore what Jesus said??

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Does this look like a war which happens in the heavens and not on earth? Why did God warn those on earth at this time to flee to the hills. to seek safety. to run like heck if those on the earth is not affected.

and if you notice in blue bold we see a few things about this time period.

1. It will be worldwide in scope. so horrible that nothing like it has never been seen. and after it is over, it will never be that way again.
2.. It will be so destructive, that mankind is actually able to wipe itself off the face of the earth if God does not intervine.


so we must ask ourselves these questions:

1. Did it happen in AD 70?

A. Has there ever been a greater tribulation on earth since then? Yes, ww2 was the worse tribulation mankind has ever seen
B. Was mankind threatened to be wiped off the earth in 70 AD? No it was not possible.

2. Has it happened sometime up to the point we are today?

a. The worse tribulation this world has seen till this day (baring the flood) has been ww1 and ww2.
b. Was mankind able threatened to become exctinct during either of these times? NO

thus we must conclude that this event (great tribulation) has not occured yet.

Simple logic.

Jesus called out His redeemed before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. those who did not heed Jesus warning to leave Jerusalem when they saw the signs, suffered with unfaithful Israel,

Does not fit. That was NOT the greatest tribulation the world had ever seen. And God did not have to intervine before mankind made itself extinct. (No flesh would be saved)

the Babylonian Whore when God poured His wrath upon her and allowed the Beast and his ten kings/horns to destroy her. The language is used in the OT to describe God's judgement on unfaithful Israel before the Babylonian exile and at other times as well. I'll go get them when I get a chance.

The babylon whore is still active and very powerful today. God has not destroyed it! No one mourned when jerusalem and the temple was destroyed. THE World cheared!

sigh....where does one begin....

in scripture??

if you read the above verses the battle takes place in HEAVEN. the only mention of Earth is the Kings of the earth who are not kings but demons or most would call them fallen angels but you scoff at that thought.

yeah I guess your right. The birds of the air eat the flesh of spiritual beings (rolls eyes in disbelief)

Perhaps if I give you Bible verses showing who the Kings of the Earth are it might aid in our conversation. give me a minute. if my daughter is actually asleep. I'll search for the verses.

i will wait

Jesus reigns IN HEAVEN. show me a verse that says JESUS is ON EARTH during the 1000 years?

BIBLE verses where this is said about the 1000 year reign and not about the NEW Earth and NEW Heaven?

I showed you one. Rev 20 makes it clear. Satan is BOUND after he assumes his kingdom. Not before.

Jerusalem, God's beloved city is in HEAVEN. that's how it comes down out of Heaven in Chapter 21. where does it say Jesus and His saints come down to Earth?

rev 21 happens AFTER 19 and 20. again where does sequence come in. 21 does not happen before 19 and 20. why do people want to think that the sequence is 21 then 20 then 19? It makes no sense!