A Saint's Guide to Sinning Less

[Ariel82]

From Peter "
The movement out of which you speak has evolved and changed its beliefs over time, because it is not sure of its foundations. Latter rain theology, and Hagin are often respected characters.

In our discussions it is obvious the role of the Holy Spirit, ones conscience, morality, the authority of scripture, what it means to follow Jesus, how to relate in a church, how to respect teachers or authority. Now at each level things are different. Some describe deprogramming themselves from religion. If I talk about the centrality of love, overcoming sin through the cross, blank stares come back. If I say we do not have command authority, we are not "little gods", there is not territorial spirits, christians are not possessed along with the having the Holy Spirit in them, we are not a mystical creation at new birth with a perfect, pure, righteous nature which we just have to realise then I am wrong."


So let's break this down..,.you are assuming you know what Ben and others believe based on your knowledge of latter rain theology and other "founding" members of the movement?

Let's move from your past experiences and ask Ben and others,what their thoughts are on issues you present.

1.

 

[PeterJens]

Two kingdoms - love and domination

Love works with rules, boundaries, appropriateness, honour, justice, truth

Domination works with power, authority, rank, position, loyalty, ambition, desire

If at the core of any view of life you find one or the other you know the kingdom from which it comes.

So if I come to a christian and talk about love, overcoming sin with victory within, honesty and openness yet am rejected, told I am wrong, evil, driven by dissension, then God does not reside here. If righteousness is not at the heart, then Jesus and His words do not reside here. It is really that simple. Gods people know of what I speak.

Ofcourse I know as I engage the arguments will change, as one by one they collapse, but it does not change the reality of where we are. A false teacher who taught about little gods, yet today denies this, have they repented and found God or just on the gravy chain of keeping their job and movement going, adapting as they ride along.

 

[Ariel82]

1. What do you believe is the role of the Holy Spirit?
2. ones conscience,
3 morality,
4. The authority of scripture,
5. what it means to follow Jesus,
6. how to relate in a church,
7. how to respect teachers or authority.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The middle ground is not truth, but compromise. The truth shouldn't be compromised because people have disagreements, even if heated. People want to use this analogy so often calling for balance but God's grace isn't balanced by His law. They are two covenants, one based in self merit and the other grace. One is, actually, meant to lead you to the other.

One condemns you, and one gives life. There is no middle road here, not to sound militant. In finding a middle ground you then lose true balance. The truth being compromised. Grace no longer being grace and law no longer being law. Both nullified.

The extreme is in lacking love.

The road is not compromise. The road is the way. The ditches are extremes. There are two ways to fall.
It is not compromise to have the wisdom to see that an elephant has a trunk and also a tail.
We see this...tension in Gods word. For example, faith is all. Yes. HOWEVER, faith without works is dead. To balance within the tension is to see BOTH parts. To go too far to the one side is to exclude and not include the other side. To not balance within the tension is to fall into a ditch.

Do you see what I meant, ben?
It is common for me to get into a ditch one way or the other with many things in the word and in my walk. I have done it.
When I get into the ditch, I temporarily can't SEE the other side at all. You only see both sides from the road.

And yes, I agree with you, bother, that without love, respect, gentleness with each other while we talk through all these things, that isn't just a ditch on either side. That's a huge sinkhole on the road!

 

[Ariel82]

Does any one on this site believe in deprograming religion?

Little God's? Territorial spirit? Possessed Christians?

Mystical new birth with sinless nature? Actually I think JohnLove does believe that one.

Just curious...no one has to answer but maybe if we clearly state our beliefs we can show,where we stand on issues and find out where God stands.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. What do you believe is the role of the Holy Spirit? Convict, Teach, Exhort, Discipline, Seal, Lead, Just for starters.

2. ones conscience, this can be complicated, who is talking in our conscious? God? The HS? Satan? Our flesh? Scripture must be our moral guide to all things even when our conscious starts to talk. to make sure it lines up wiht Gods word.

3 morality, Determined by the law, plus every other command God has given, But is deeper even than this.. As mental sin can be just as damaging to a person that overt sins.

4. The authority of scripture, Sole authority, trumps everything else.

5. what it means to follow Jesus, To live as he did, To love others, and deny self, To seek after the things of the spirit.

6. how to relate in a church, With love and thanksgiving. and gratitude, to serve others sacrificially the way God served and serves us

7. how to respect teachers or authority. To treat them not as God, or carriers of ALL truth, (ie blind followers) but to test everything they say, But with respect and honor.. Since they were placed in authority over us.

 

[Depleted]

The middle ground is not truth, but compromise. The truth shouldn't be compromised because people have disagreements, even if heated. People want to use this analogy so often calling for balance but God's grace isn't balanced by His law. They are two covenants, one based in self merit and the other grace. One is, actually, meant to lead you to the other.

One condemns you, and one gives life. There is no middle road here, not to sound militant. In finding a middle ground you then lose true balance. The truth being compromised. Grace no longer being grace and law no longer being law. Both nullified.

The extreme is in lacking love.

Clarification. The "road" isn't "a road." In Latin, the word "road" was "via," aka "Way." In this case, as with the Bible, there is but one Way! His name is Jesus. Arguing along either side of The Way in your perspective ditches is compromising, not following the Road/the Way!

As for "lacking love," despite what you keep saying that what you write isn't what you intend it to say, I disagree. I think you're a pretty good writer and you really do intend to give off the air you give off -- either everyone needs to agree with your particular beliefs, or they are inferior. If you don't mean to, you wouldn't give off the same air while explaining that that is not what you mean it to be like. They are "They."

You're right! I am "They" today. I am quite contently enjoying, almost giddy, over being "they" today. (Correction. No almost there. This really is giddy with a little mixture of intense gratitude to for the ever-merciful God, who puts on fatted calf for dinner every night for those children returning.) I offer you my hand so you can join us "theys" and get up onto HIS road. Narrow is the way, and you missed. I offer you to come back and grab onto the narrow road.

No sarcasm in that. Truly, truly a hand offered to bring you back, because the ditch isn't that far from the road, so it can be mistaken as the road on occasion, especially when we're looking at things from the perspective of the ditch.

 

[Ariel82]

Two kingdoms - love and domination

Love works with rules, boundaries, appropriateness, honour, justice, truth

Domination works with power, authority, rank, position, loyalty, ambition, desire

If at the core of any view of life you find one or the other you know the kingdom from which it comes.

So if I come to a christian and talk about love, overcoming sin with victory within, honesty and openness yet am rejected, told I am wrong, evil, driven by dissension, then God does not reside here. If righteousness is not at the heart, then Jesus and His words do not reside here. It is really that simple. Gods people know of what I speak.

Ofcourse I know as I engage the arguments will change, as one by one they collapse, but it does not change the reality of where we are. A false teacher who taught about little gods, yet today denies this, have they repented and found God or just on the gravy chain of keeping their job and movement going, adapting as they ride along.

I don't speak to movement leaders, just folks who come to this site....perhaps you could address what they say and believe instead of rant and rave about folks you consider false teachers?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Two kingdoms - love and domination

Love works with rules, boundaries, appropriateness, honour, justice, truth

Domination works with power, authority, rank, position, loyalty, ambition, desire

If at the core of any view of life you find one or the other you know the kingdom from which it comes.

So if I come to a christian and talk about love, overcoming sin with victory within, honesty and openness yet am rejected, told I am wrong, evil, driven by dissension, then God does not reside here. If righteousness is not at the heart, then Jesus and His words do not reside here. It is really that simple. Gods people know of what I speak.

Ofcourse I know as I engage the arguments will change, as one by one they collapse, but it does not change the reality of where we are. A false teacher who taught about little gods, yet today denies this, have they repented and found God or just on the gravy chain of keeping their job and movement going, adapting as they ride along.

Put down your weapons, peter.
Love does not hold grudges.
Forgive them for their harsh words toward you over the past months.
They will also forgive you for your harsh words.
You are not "unsaved."
They are not "heretics."
Lay down your weapons and talk gently with them and bitterness can stop.
None of us has all knowledge.
We need each other to learn and grow.
There does not have to be total agreement on every single thing. There does, however, have to be love and gentleness with one another.

 

[Depleted]

I am sorry sis, I love you too. And I am not going to get into it with Peter.. so do not fear that, If anything I will just respond to him like I would anyone else.

But your and moms "nudges" have not done anything to help. nor have all the people over the past few months who have "nudged" like you are trying to do..

The same stuff continues, as witnessed here even today. He still bears false witness (they both do) and they still deny they have done anything wrong.

How many hypergrace threads have we had lately? or how about the word of faith thread? (not that I visited that one, it was closed before I had a chance to even read it) Or the joseph prince thread (one of the most hateful threads I ever witness since i have been a member of CC, and the many other ones..

One of those rare moments when we agree. It was a hateful thread. I HATE what he does to God's peeps, and I don't hate often. (Strongly dislike often, but I think you and I have that in common.)

 

[PeterJens]

By the way this is not about mud slinging. I have no problem people saying what they believe.
I will construct my reasons for not agreeing with it, and how it comes across to me, but there is not animosity involved, it is just saying what is and why.

I am not against homosexuality or homosexuals, I just regard homosexual acts as sin. I understand why in a small rural community sexual identity is an issue, and sexual disease is a life and death issue. The law as a result makes 100% sense, but I will argue the cases and put my point of view across.

What I do not like is people who create a point of view, argue that you are morally evil, a liar and a hypocrite, and then say they have no reason morally to say these things are true. Now that is slander and wrong.

Now miss-representing ideas, is actually dangerous ground. An idea or emphasis can be taken by the beholder one way but be emphasised another. Both are true, though people can get upset about the other representing it that way.

A simple idea is salvation. I am saved, secure, no matter what I do cannot loose it. So actions do not matter as far as salvation is concerned. Now that is a true statement. But the people who hold this position also care deeply about behaviour and would like to change, but feel constrained or limited, which is partly their theology. They then get offended when told behaviour does not matter.

But if you remove morality, or drivers like ones conscience or the Holy Spirit to convict of problems, then behaviour has no rules, it is a free agent. Maybe the idea of totally free behaviour is alien to deeply religious people. In the world it is well explored theme in fiction novels and films. Anarchists believe this is actually how we should live without rules.

So what I am often accused of as miss-representing people is simply talking about concepts from different points of view, but the reader reads in their own position on to the words rather than the speakers. So the accusation continues.
I would suggest until this language issue is overcome, one will always get these type of discussions.

 

[Depleted]

That could work, but the issue is in falsely defining another person's beliefs as being in one of the two ditches.

Or falsely defining the road as compromise? You keep thinking you're pegging everyone else just right. Have you ever considered you might not be? After all you just said the road is Compromise and then a little later you said Ariel's concept might work. She just named the two ditches and you just said yours is right. Once in awhile give the concept that "I may be wrong in assuming what everyone else is thinking" a chance. It surprises me how often I am sure what everyone else is thinking only to find out they were thinking baseball and I was thinking mountains in Virginia. Never underestimate the ability of everyone, including ourselves, to get it THAT wrong, especially when you spend so much time telling us what you know we're thinking.

 

[Ariel82]

I would suggest until the speaker learns to speak in a manner that conveys his thoughts without the overlay an attempting to speak for the person they are conversing with, such misunderstanding will continue.

Communication has be done both by the person who heard and the person who speaks in a manner that both understand the concepts being conveyed.

 

[Ariel82]

Haven't seen Ben do that too often, but we haven't really talked much and he seems open to admitting he might have misread the analogy.

Are you playing baseball too, Lynn?

 

[BenFTW]

By the way this is not about mud slinging. I have no problem people saying what they believe.
I will construct my reasons for not agreeing with it, and how it comes across to me, but there is not animosity involved, it is just saying what is and why.

I am not against homosexuality or homosexuals, I just regard homosexual acts as sin. I understand why in a small rural community sexual identity is an issue, and sexual disease is a life and death issue. The law as a result makes 100% sense, but I will argue the cases and put my point of view across.

What I do not like is people who create a point of view, argue that you are morally evil, a liar and a hypocrite, and then say they have no reason morally to say these things are true. Now that is slander and wrong.

Now miss-representing ideas, is actually dangerous ground. An idea or emphasis can be taken by the beholder one way but be emphasised another. Both are true, though people can get upset about the other representing it that way.

A simple idea is salvation. I am saved, secure, no matter what I do cannot loose it. So actions do not matter as far as salvation is concerned. Now that is a true statement. But the people who hold this position also care deeply about behaviour and would like to change, but feel constrained or limited, which is partly their theology. They then get offended when told behaviour does not matter.

But if you remove morality, or drivers like ones conscience or the Holy Spirit to convict of problems, then behaviour has no rules, it is a free agent. Maybe the idea of totally free behaviour is alien to deeply religious people. In the world it is well explored theme in fiction novels and films. Anarchists believe this is actually how we should live without rules.

So what I am often accused of as miss-representing people is simply talking about concepts from different points of view, but the reader reads in their own position on to the words rather than the speakers. So the accusation continues.
I would suggest until this language issue is overcome, one will always get these type of discussions.

So you're hurt because you believe yourself to walk righteously and other people are telling you that you are not walking 100% righteously? That is what I gathered from reading your post.

They call you a hypocrite because the way you present yourself is as sinless, and yet they know for a fact that you do sin. Just today you called us stupid, where is the love in that? Didn't Jesus say of those you call foolish you are in danger of hell-fire? You see, right now you feel condemned. You shouldn't, but you do. God doesn't condemn you, He loves you. That sin, of you insulting us, was taken at the cross.

You see, we are not attacking your character, we are only pointing out that you are human. You sin, you make mistakes. You aren't perfect in and of yourself. Yet, in Christ you are. It is through this revelation that victory over sin can be found. You have the flesh, but you are spirit. Jesus imputed His righteousness to you. You are a new creation, you see? Old man crucified. So while we acknowledge we are being progressively sanctified we know also that in practicality we have yet to attain a sinless walk.

 

[Ariel82]

Gtg drive home now. Cyl

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gtg drive home now. Cyl

have a safe trip

 

[PeterJens]

Put down your weapons, peter.
Love does not hold grudges.
Forgive them for their harsh words toward you over the past months.
They will also forgive you for your harsh words.
You are not "unsaved."
They are not "heretics."
Lay down your weapons and talk gently with them and bitterness can stop.
None of us has all knowledge.
We need each other to learn and grow.
There does not have to be total agreement on every single thing. There does, however, have to be love and gentleness with one another.

Let me look at what Jesus said ...

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 15:19

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.
1 John 2:15

A group who love wealth and prosperity, encouraging dreams of world domination and worldly success stand condemned.

As people of God we are called to separate ourselves from such as these.

 

[BenFTW]

Or falsely defining the road as compromise? You keep thinking you're pegging everyone else just right. Have you ever considered you might not be? After all you just said the road is Compromise and then a little later you said Ariel's concept might work. She just named the two ditches and you just said yours is right. Once in awhile give the concept that "I may be wrong in assuming what everyone else is thinking" a chance. It surprises me how often I am sure what everyone else is thinking only to find out they were thinking baseball and I was thinking mountains in Virginia. Never underestimate the ability of everyone, including ourselves, to get it THAT wrong, especially when you spend so much time telling us what you know we're thinking.

Depleted, I've held my tongue towards you for quite some time. You always come in and say your peace, trying to get people to self-reflect. The peanut gallery, if you will. A lot of the times it is sarcastic, and wrong. Dare I say, hypocritical in that of you are always making assumptions yet accusing others of doing exactly that. You aren't above the crowd Lynn, and your chiming in doesn't help either.

You like to point out other's supposed hypocrisy but don't realize more often than not you have misread a person's intents where all others tend to understand the intent. I don't know why that is, but its happened a number of times. You're misreading me, and maybe its because you don't know me. It might be better off if you didn't give your two cents. To be honest, a lot of times I read it as you being passive aggressive. Lets, yes you and me, not do that because you do know what they say when you assume, right?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me look at what Jesus said ...

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 15:19

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.
1 John 2:15

A group who love wealth and prosperity, encouraging dreams of world domination and worldly success stand condemned.

As people of God we are called to separate ourselves from such as these.

your condemning the wrong people number 1

and number two For those like that. God loves them like he does any sinner and wants them saved. And you can,t do that by hate and judging, that has never worked