Another "caught up" scripture...

HhhLGA89 · Jan 22, 2012

I think you all are making a passage which is not intended to be too complex into an enigma.

Matthew 24:37-42 - For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

It is an assumption to say that this means the rapture! Whether I believe in it or not.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 - For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

When Christ returns the believers will be caught with Him in the air, both the dead and those alive at Christs return. The ones who are not saved when He returns are the ones in Matthew 24:40 who will be left in the field; because they were not of Christ they will still be on the ground and not caught up. And from there they will be sent to hell. Why do people feel the need to assume this is a rapture from the text? why cant they just say this is the second coming????! It is more honest to say this is the second coming because we know that the second coming is biblical without a doubt and we know when that event occurs the SAME EXACT THINGS WILL HAPPEN. Why make up a new event when it can just as easily be the second coming he's talking about??

Zilla64007 · Jan 22, 2012

the only ones that are taken up are those taken to destruction (Luke 17:26-37)

Katy-follower · Jan 23, 2012

Noah was rescued. He was warned in advance and was prepared. The foolish were not (and they didn't listen).

Born again Christians will be raptured. We've been warned and are prepared for the rapture to happen at some point. The foolish will not be. (The foolish do not listen).

History repeats itself!

Rev 3:10: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth"

Born again Christians are suffering persecution TODAY, since we have to deal with this horrible world. We go through trials and tribulations now, while the unsaved continue enjoying their materialistic Godless life. But they will (unfortunately) suffer this tribulation to come, since they did not believe and were not saved.

Satan would definitely like one to believe that you must suffer and/or have good works to complete God's salvation. At the Rapture, our salvation is completed. Those who have died, receive their resurrected bodies from the grave; while those that are alive have their bodies transformed as they go up to be with the Lord. (Philippians 3:20,21).

Think about this...

If Satan cannot convince you that good works are necessary for salvation; then, he will attempt, through his ministers, to convince you that you must go into the Tribulation. Some that hold this view have said this shows God we are really Christians by now being faithful while being physically persecuted. This contradicts God's word. This denies Christ's completing our salvation by His death and Resurrection. Therefore, they do not believe one is saved eternally; but, rather, must have good works in order to maintain their salvation. Very subtly, they accuse God of being a liar and unfaithful to His Word when He promised all believers they would “never perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16).

We know that there will be exactly 3.5 years between the "abomination of desolation" and the "second coming". Since no man will know the exact day and hour of the rapture, it cannot happen afterwards, because we would obviously know the date to expect Him.

Those left behind are given another chance, but if they are not willing to accept the free gift now, then what are the chances they will accept it during the tribulation and be willing to die for it? Those unsaved in the tribulation will have to refuse the mark of the beast. In doing so they will be put to death by the beast.

1 Thess 5...
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing"

CBM82 · Jan 23, 2012

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

I personally dont want to be "taken". I dont care too much for being a carcass surrounded by eagles/vultures lol

Zilla64007 · Jan 23, 2012

Noah was never removed from the earth. Noah stayed ON the earth while God destroyed the earth.

John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

the only other verse that uses "keep" and "from" the same way that revelation 3:10 does... Rev3:10 does not say we will be kept away from tribulation... it says protect/keep/"tereo" thee in the midst of/from/"ek" the "hour of temptation"... Re3:18 uses the same preposition "ek" when it says "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire"... pre-tribulationists twist the preposition "ek" for their own theological propaganda

temptation is not tribulation. tribulation is "thlipsis/thleebo"
temptation is "peirasmos"

they are not the same. Revelation 3:10 is NOT a proof text for a pre-tribulation rapture.

Luke 21:36
the word escape is "ekpheugo"... noun, 2nd aorist.
the voice of the noun determines the way this verb is acted out on the noun, in this case, "you"...

an active tense says the action of the verb is performed by the noun, i.e., you would be performing the action yourself to escape
a passive tense says the action is being performed upon the noun, i.e., God would be making you escape by pulling you out of the way

ekpheugo is ACTIVE.

G1628
verb (infinitive) ~ [mood]
2nd Aorist ~ [tense]
Active ~ [voice]

Luke 21:36 does NOT talk of a rapture.

Zilla64007 · Jan 23, 2012

katy-follower, you underline 1 thessalonians 5:1-2... im gonna quote v1-7, line by line, so that you actually read the entire thing in its proper context...

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

and a little something extra from the Book of Revelation 3:1-6:
1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

pre-tribbers love to sit and profess the rapture will come as a thief in the night, even to Christians...
the only ones who will not caught unexpectedly like a thief are those who are not in darkness.

1 thessalonians 5:1-2 is NOT talking about a rapture... it is talking about the final judgment.

A-Omega · Jan 23, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

There are so many verses in the Old Testament that prove this is not true. The Day of The Lord is absolutely 100% NOT the Second Coming of the Great White Throne Judgment. The Day of The Lord is the beginning of the outpouring of God's wrath. There are a number of Old Testament scriptures that confirm this.

10Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
11The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
...
17And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Notice it does not speak of final judgment. It speaks of the mighty and wealthy people hiding in rocks and caves in fear. In other words, they are still alive on Earth. The Day of The Lord is clearly not the Second Coming or Final judgment. It is when the wrath of God poured out through the Great Tribulation/70th week begins.

I am at a loss as to how so many posts equate the Day of The Lord and the Second Coming. What is the Biblical basis for this?

Here are more verses:

Joel 2 1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

So we see clear signs before the Day of the Lord and how it all kicks off, with an earthquake.

This is all clearly fulfilled at the 6th Seal of Revelation:
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So we have:

1. Sun turns black
2. Moon turns to blood
3. Earthquake of global scale
4. Rich and powerful people hiding in caves and rocks.
5. A pronouncement that the great day of the wrath of God has arrived.

This the clear fulfillment of the Day of the Lord. It is the START of the end times, not the end. It is when the world realizes God has now arisen to shake the Earth and pour out His divine wrath on it.

So when Paul speaks of the Day of The Lord, THIS is what he means. The Second Coming could NEVER come on us like a thief. Anyone with a Bible could seal the seals, trumpets and vials happening, an antichrist, image of the beast, etc. and KNOW with certainty when Jesus was coming (after the 7th vial). Or if they counted the 70th week from the confirming of the covenant. And Jesus Himself said everyone would see his Second Coming and know it. But Jesus does come as a thief to snatch His bride right before the Day of The Lord.

(p.S. please note I do not agree with any of the 3 popular rapture models. I think they all fail under Biblical scrutiny which is why the rapture debate rages on endlessly. Each side can make valid points against the other). God bless.

Avinu · Jan 23, 2012

Katy, I would go back and re-read those verses. No where does it say that Noah was caught up. It says he and his family were kept safe in the Ark.(In the original story from Torah) Who was actually taken out of the world? The wicked were destroyed and removed. Noah and his family stayed right here on earth. So, one will be left and one will be taken, being the one taken is not a good thing. Shalom

peterT · Jan 23, 2012

Katy-follower said:

We need to put in into context with all that Jesus said in that chapter
Jesus said-

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds
37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Did God keep Noah from the flood or throw the flood.
Did God keep Daniel from the fire or throw the fire.
Did God keep Daniel from the lions or throw the lions.

So shall it be in the end of the world like in the days of Noah, God will keep some of us throw the tribulation NOT from the tribulation.

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Avinu · Jan 23, 2012

We need to put in into context with all that Jesus said in that chapter
Jesus said-

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds
37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Did God keep Noah from the flood or throw the flood.
Did God keep Daniel from the fire or throw the fire.
Did God keep Daniel from the lions or throw the lions.

So shall it be in the end of the world like in the days of Noah, God will keep some of us throw the tribulation NOT from the tribulation.

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Very well put Peter.

babyboyblue · Jan 23, 2012

CBM82 said:

I totally agree. In fact the scriptures say that those outside the ark were taken and only Noah and his family remained.

A-Omega · Jan 23, 2012

peterT said:

4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

Noah was ABOVE the flood waters. He was not in a sub. He did not suffer in the flood. The ungodly were killed. Not just "taken." They died.

And the Scriptures makes a direct comparison to Lot, who was not in the city of Sodom when it was destroyed. He escaped all the things that came to pass. He was taken and then the wrath of God came.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17)

Here Jesus, in the exact same context of the end times Day of The Lord prophecy, describes the state of the world at the time in the future as the days of Lot. Lot did not suffer at any of the fire and brimstone. He was "taken" and then everyone else was killed.

So the implication is abundantly clear. The church is removed and then the wrath of God is poured out.

Almost all of the language Jesus uses in reference to the Day of the Lord and rapture are idioms of the Jewish wedding and feast of trumpets. Both involve a "snatching" and "gathering." It's pretty obvious when studying the Old Testament that the rapture had to precede the 7 year/70th week/Day of The Lord.

A-Omega · Jan 23, 2012

And another major flaw with the post-trib model as detailed above is that the Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. Once this is establihed the whole scriptural support for the post-trib model falls apart.

peterT · Jan 24, 2012

A-Omega said:

Yes but not until after the tribulation at the last trumpet Rv11.

Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

There we are stand on the sea of glass, after getting the victory over the beast, and over his image.
Then the wrath of God is poured out on the wicked, the people that have the mark.

Rv16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rv16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

peterT · Jan 24, 2012

A-Omega said:

The reapers are the angels.

Matt13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Nowhere in the Bible but in Matt24 do you see the angels reaping?

Matt24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Nowhere in the Bible dose a Rapture/ removal of all Christians on Earth take place before the tribulation.

Post-Tribulation Rapture

1 Thessalonians Chapter 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

　
It just happens that Jesus comes in the clouds.

It just happens that Jesus comes at the last trumpet.

It just happens that Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel..

It just happens that Jesus raises the dead first.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised in the clouds

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised at the sound of the last trumpet

Revelation Chapter 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation Chapter 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Corinthians Chapter 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

The two end time prophets are killed by the beast at the end of the great tribulation

Jesus comes and gets us and the angels are the reapers at the end of the tribulation Matt24.

Rapture confirmed by

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All this happens at the end of the tribulation, there is no event/ rapture in the Bible before that.

How many resurrections or raptures are there?

CBM82 · Jan 24, 2012

And when God brought down the plagues on Egypt (some see a parallel with revelation) God did not rapture or take the people out first....they were there but God protected them.

A-Omega · Jan 24, 2012

peterT said:

Your missing my point. The statement by Jesus about Lot makes it clear that believers at the time of the rapture, will not suffer anything. This is abundantly obvious by just reading the Genesis account. Lot was removed from the city of Sodom, with no harm done to him, just before the wrath of God was poured out. In fact the angels knew specifically that Lot had to be personally removed before it began.

So clearly the example you provide above is NOT what Jesus is referencing. Those Christians who will suffer God's wrath and die during the Great Trib are those who either converted during the Great Trib.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17)

Believers get out. And then the judgments of God starts. Your rapture model has to be able to reconcile this verse and it appears that it does not, IMO. God bless.

A-Omega · Jan 24, 2012

peterT said:

Your own analysis contradicts itself.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yet you try to say that this is the rapture:

9So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There are no angels gathering believers at the rapture. Jesus comes Himself for His Bride. There is no one being cast into a furnace by Jesus at the rapture. Obviously these 2 passages are describing two different events. We are clearly told the dead in Christ rise first. The dead are going to fly out of their graves on their own. There is no angelic assistance.

When the angels come that will be the end times gathering of the Jews to Israel at the end of the Great Tribulation, not a rapture.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matthew 24)

3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
(Deuteronomy 30)

God prohesies this gathering repeatedly in the Old Testament. This is what is being described in this verse. Jesus does not send angels for us at the rapture. He comes to get us (HIS BRIDE) Himself.

John 14 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Everything Jesus says in this verse is idiomatic of the Jewish marriage. Christ is gone to prepare a place for His Bride, the church. He will then come and snatch His bride and take her to the home He has prepared. WE are the bride and we will be shut in for the "marital week" which is the 7 years of the Great Tribuation. See Jacon's marital week with Leah in Genesis. It was 7 years. None of this is coincidence. The Lord is foreshadowing these events all through the Old Testament.

peterT said:

I am not sure what this has to do with anything. The 2 witnesses are indeed resurrected and ascend to Heaven. And yes, a 7th trumpet is sounded. But where is the raptured church??? You can only see the rapture here by adding to scripture. The raptured church is nowhere to be found in this passage.

The

peterT said:

There are many mysteries in the Bible. The one in Revelation in Revelation 10 is not the same as the Rapture. How do I know this? Because in the same passage about the 7th trumpet you quote above, there is no mention of a rapture. It's just that simple. Furthermore, the "last trump" is not the 7th trumpet. The Last Trump is a Hebrew idiom for the final trump in the Feast of Trumpets. And the Feast of Trumpets is a gathering of God's people. It also happens to be the one feast that starts on the new moon (the 29th or 30th) of each year, so the Jews do not know the day or hour it begins. Jesus repeatedly uses the language of the Hebrew Feast of Trumpets and the Marriage in discussing the rapture.

The raptured church is clearly found in Revelation 7:
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Notice even the way John describes them, the group just appears out of nowhere.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

All the language is clear that this group appears, en masse. These are not "tribulation martyrs." This is the raptured church. Appearing as a group, wearing white, just as Jesus promises in the letters to the churches. The bride will be hid for 7 years until the marital week is finished.

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(Isaiah 26)

The dead rise first. Then we who are alive rise. And we go to our bridal chamber to hide, until the judgment is done. This is the entire purpose of the rapture: It is the Marital certemony of Christ and His bride. And we will be with Jesus for those 7 years until the Second Coming.

Brother, I commend your passion. But this is why I feel Old Testament study is so important in discussing bible prophecy. The Bible confirms itself by itself. So we should always be able to find the meaning of these prophetic events in Scripture. God bless.

Avinu · Jan 24, 2012

Excellent analogy my friend, I love this one as well. Because all wrath was pouring out on Egypt with Israel in the middle of it (so to speak) and Yah kept them safe and it didn't touch them. It's so funny how hard people want to hang on to the pre-trib rapture lie, because they just can't bare the thought of having to be here in the tribulation. Shalom

Avinu · Jan 24, 2012

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD. AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE AL...IVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD. AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE. SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM. NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED. NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE. THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION. THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION. WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION. SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

Another "caught up" scripture...

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