Attending Services as a Guest vs Membership

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J

jgrig2

Guest
#41
Funny thing here:

At your work place.. you know.. you have a payroll of membership.. you have performance measures.. can have position terminated if you aren't doing a good job.

This is normal.. acceptable..

So how should a christian assembly be different?

Having a faithful assembly committed to Jesus is part of what Paul writes about in all His letters to different churches. How will this be set about in doing? How ill this be measured?

My own church is having some issue with this now because our recent pastor has set out to plant another church.. and so is no longer a member of our church.. so a few of the things we put in place with him there are now gone as far as accountability goes. This has led to confusion over expectations from leadership.. confusion over membership requirements and some misunderstanding among members.

An assembly that has members and visitors? And requirements for that membership? Is one that tries to be accountable to Jesus as the Head of their assembly.

It's about loving Jesus to have an assembly that is built up in discipline and service to Him.
1. Wow, thats not a bright pastor. He should have planted under the authority of your church until the Church plant was able to become independent or you guys voted to do a multi-campus church.
2. This pastor must have been young or really poorly trained to leave leadership without approval or a reccomendation from the leadership (elders and congregation).
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#42
Many persons understand ''Prophet'' here to refer to the office of what we call pastor.
Yeah that's part of the problem. Rather hypocritical wouldn't you say, to say we believe in sola scriptura yet change meanings to what we please?

And in case you have not figured it out. 1 tim. 3 is all about qualitications for eldership or pastor. It is just in these modern times that we just think we ought to have one of two special elders (which we call the pastor) whom we pay and rely on most.
Unfortunately the clergy/laity distinctions common in episcopal style churches are very much present in churches which are not episcopal. The only real difference is the priest or bishop is now called a pastor or elder. This leads to authoritarian styled churches which is the main causes of the problems that some people can have with these churches, and why movements such as the house or home-church movements have gained popularity in recent years - which are a far better reflection of the new testament church than your average local church.

But the New testament example is that of a plurality of elders (search elder) in which all are equally capable of teaching but it just makes sense to have one or two for special reasons in the post-roman world. When u didn't have to worry about persecution the plurality of elders was important.
But I think in many respects it is impractical and less efficient to have one or even two persons who does all the work. We see the scripture show us how the new testament churches functioned, where it is clear to me that the functions of teaching, edification etc was not left solely to the elders or pastors in the church:

1Co 14:26 Then how is it, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be for building up.
1Co 14:27 If one speaks in a language, let it be by two, or at the most three, and in succession. And let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in a church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
1Co 14:29 And if there are two or three prophets, let them speak, and let the others judge.


Now I do not know many churches who function in this way.

But while I haven't been reading Harold Kamping , I do refer to the book:


PAGAN CHRISTIANITY
Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices
by Frank Viola and George Barna


and a review is found here (and theres plenty of other reviews)
http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/2008/01/pagan-christian.html
 

Kakashi

Senior Member
Jan 3, 2007
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#43
I think when we come into the body of Christ, we should be considered a member wherever we go and welcomed as such. Signing stuff is just for legal stuff.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#44
I might as well quote part of that review actually, which highlights much better what I've been saying re: headship of pastors:

"My only real complaint with the book is the continual use of the phrase “Jesus’ headship” to refer to "Jesus’ leadership" role in the church. I wrote extensively on this earlier in the year. Ironically, in light of this book, the idea of “head” as “one who rules” is foreign to the Greek language. For the Greeks, the head symbolized prominence and was physiologically understood as the source or origin of life for the rest of the body, but it was not the ruler or the control center of the body. “Head” as “one who rules” is a Roman understanding of the metaphor read back into the scripture. (See my Household of God series starting with the post in the last section called Household Code Lost in Translation: Kephale and the next eleven posts.) But this was a minor distraction."


In relation to membership, I think the conclusion I draw from all of this is that a pastor has no right whatsoever to demand membership from the congregation. The pastor is not the ruler over the local church, at least not in the sense we take it normally.

Jesus clearly taught that in His church things were not to be like that:
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
And I like Barne's commentary on this:

The princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them - That is, over their subjects. "You know that such honors are customary among nations. The kings of the earth raise their favorites to posts of trust and power they give authority to some over others; but my kingdom is established in a different manner. All are to be on a level. The rich, the poor, the learned, the unlearned, the bond, the free, are to be equal. He will be the most distinguished that shows most humility, the deepest sense of his unworthiness, and the most earnest desire to promote the welfare of his brethren."


A pastor should not tell you what you can and cannot do, whether you need to give or not, or how much, whether you can get married or not, whether you can do this or do that.

Not only that, but many a pastor I'm sure has prevented the individual members of a local church in using their God-given gifts and talents within the congregation, either due to segregation (dividing old from the young for example), suppression (actively commanding or not giving permission for certain members to do certain things), distraction (offering alternative 'job's in the church such as putting our chairs and making cups of tea and other such menial tasks, to distract from the individuals' more important Spirit-given talents and abilities)...and I am sure that all these authoritarian pastors will be answerable to God on judgement day for these things they do.
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,565
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#45
How do you typically become a member of a church? Do you just fill out an application form? Can your membership request be refused? Does your membership expire? Do you get a membership card? I've never attended a church long enough to know much about this membership concept.
 
J

jgrig2

Guest
#46
How do you typically become a member of a church? Do you just fill out an application form? Can your membership request be refused? Does your membership expire? Do you get a membership card? I've never attended a church long enough to know much about this membership concept.
Its horrible to call it membership but you have to make a disctinction betwene those who make a commitment to the local Church and those just attending. HIstorically there is a meeting with the leadership and sharing your testimony before the church affirming that you are baptized and confirmed and the CHurch agrees to look out for you. Congregationalists usually do a church vote just for tradition sake so its not like the elders are being dictators and it just says we welcome you and we promise to love you and protect you spiritually and do whatever we can to help you. In my church because we're presbyterian we restate our membership vows verbally or we give an abbreviated version paraphrased.

Why is this necessary? Just as Christ calls us to himself personaly so we ought ot be involved in HIS Church personally n'important quelle denomination as long as its local.
 
B

broken

Guest
#47
At your work place.. you know.. you have a payroll of membership.. you have performance measures.. can have position terminated if you aren't doing a good job.

This is normal.. acceptable..

So how should a christian assembly be different?
Yes. We serve His kingdom. At the workplace, the vast majority of humans work for a corporate or worldly kingdom. The kindom of heaven is not at all like the kingdom of this earth.

I thought I was very clear. I submit to the local church's authority. Last time I checked, Christ did not hand out membership cards in any of the four gospels. He said jump and his disciples jumped. I figure if it worked for Christ it might be worth giving a try. *Shrug* If you want to count the number, go for it. Probaly no harm in it. As for me, I won't sign your nifty card thingy. If that means I can't be in your club or sit at the cool table, I'm ok with that. If I have to be voted in by the congregation, well, I know I'm in the wrong place. The kindgom of heaven is not a democracy. It is a monarchy. If you look at Samuel, you'll see that this whole desire for human leadership has been our downfall for generations.

I've said my peace. I'm done with this thread now. God bless.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#48
Yes. We serve His kingdom. At the workplace, the vast majority of humans work for a corporate or worldly kingdom. The kindom of heaven is not at all like the kingdom of this earth.

I thought I was very clear. I submit to the local church's authority. Last time I checked, Christ did not hand out membership cards in any of the four gospels. He said jump and his disciples jumped. I figure if it worked for Christ it might be worth giving a try. *Shrug* If you want to count the number, go for it. Probaly no harm in it. As for me, I won't sign your nifty card thingy. If that means I can't be in your club or sit at the cool table, I'm ok with that. If I have to be voted in by the congregation, well, I know I'm in the wrong place. The kindgom of heaven is not a democracy. It is a monarchy. If you look at Samuel, you'll see that this whole desire for human leadership has been our downfall for generations.

I've said my peace. I'm done with this thread now. God bless.
I like the way you think my friend.
 
J

jgrig2

Guest
#49
Anytime I hear persons try to say that Jesus' teaching and Paul's were different and that Christians only have to listen to the 4 Gospels and not what the epistles and Acts say I am reminded of my great-grandmother who was a Roman Catholic who denied the mass, Mary, praying to saints, the authority of the vatican and indulgences. Paul's instructions are just as important as Jesus' and we listen to Paul equally as we do to Jesus for It was Jesus who gave Paul that authority.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#50
Anytime I hear persons try to say that Jesus' teaching and Paul's were different and that Christians only have to listen to the 4 Gospels and not what the epistles.
I haven't seen anybody making such a claim, atleast not in this thread.
 
J

jgrig2

Guest
#51
I haven't seen anybody making such a claim, atleast not in this thread.
Never said anyone did but some statements here and on others came very close to implying it.
 
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