Do you believe there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture?

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Oct 5, 2009
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The Mystery of The Rapture
Why isn't the Rapture mentioned
in the book of Revelation?
Does the Rapture mark the beginning of the Tribulation? No, the Bible does not state anywhere that the Tribulation begins with the Rapture. I believe the Rapture could occur months or even years before the Tribulation begins, although it is likely to occur near the beginning because the Tribulation is the time of the pouring out of God's wrath, and 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says that Jesus will "deliver" His Church "from the wrath to come."​
Another reason for believing the Rapture is likely to occur near the beginning of the Tribulation is because 2 Thessalonians 2 says that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until a "restrainer" is "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7). I believe that restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the Church. Thus, when the Church is removed, the Antichrist will be unleashed, and the Tribulation will begin.​
The prophet Daniel indicates that the starting point of the Tribulation will be a "covenant" that the Antichrist will arrange for Israel that will evidently guarantee the nation's peace and enable the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).​
Why isn't the Rapture specifically mentioned in Revelation?
The book of Revelation implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture without specifically mentioning the event. In chapter 4 verse 1, John sees a door open in the heavens and he is raptured to Heaven in what appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. In Revelation 19:11, John sees the heavens opened again, and Jesus descends on a white horse, with the Church accompanying Him (Revelation 19:14). Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation focus on the Church, but there is no more mention of the Church until the end of the book (Revelation 22:16). From chapter 4 through chapter 21, there is only mention of "saints," which would be those who accept the Gospel during the Tribulation.​
The Bible never specifically defines the timing of the Rapture by tying it to any other event like the re-establishment of Israel or the re-building of the Temple. Even its proximity to the Tribulation is inferred rather than definitely stated. That's because the Rapture is an imminent event that could occur at any moment.​
There are strong scriptural inferences that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation begins. A couple of those are found in Jesus' Olivet Discourse as recorded in Luke 21. Jesus stated that when the end time signs "begin to take place," we are to look up, for our redemption will be drawing near (Luke 21:28). Note that the redemption will come not at the end of the signs, but as they begin to take place. Jesus then added that believers should pray earnestly that they might "escape" the great tribulation that is coming upon "all those who dwell on the face of the earth" (Luke 21:36).​

In this regard, Paul states in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that believers are waiting for "His Son from heaven . . . that is, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." And Jesus told John to write to the church at Philadelphia, representative of faithful Christians, that "because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).​
Isn't a mid-Tribulation Rapture inferred in Revelation?
Some people think so. They point first to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 which says the Rapture will occur at the blowing of the "last trumpet." They then point to Revelation 11:15 where the seventh and last trumpet of the trumpet judgments is blown. Since this seventh trumpet appears to be blown in the middle of the Tribulation, after the Antichrist kills the two witnesses, the argument is that this must mark the time of the Rapture.​
There are several problems with this argument. In the first place, there is nothing in the Bible that identifies the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in Revelation as the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15. The assumption that the two are the same is just that - an assumption. It is a shaky assumption because the trumpets of Revelation are announcing judgments that are aimed at unbelievers. They don't have any relationship to believers.​
Now, there is a trumpet that the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:32 can be identified with. It is the "trumpet of God" which 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says will be blown when the Rapture occurs. With that in mind, consider the fact that the last trumpet of the trumpet judgments in Revelation 11:15 is not identified as the trumpet of God but as the trumpet of an angel.​
The second problem with the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11 really doesn't relate to the middle of the Tribulation at all. Its blowing triggers a flash-forward to the end of the Tribulation to the proclamation that "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever" (Revelation 11:15).​
Another thing to consider is that 1 Corinthians 15 was written about 45 years before the book of Revelation. Thus, it seems logical that the reference to a "last trumpet" must refer to something in the Old Testament that the Corinthian church would have been familiar with. That would most likely have been the trumpet referred to by both Joel and Zephaniah - the trumpet that will be blown before the Day of the Lord's judgment (the Tribulation - see Joel 2:1 and Zephaniah 1:16).​
Can an argument be made for placing the
Rapture near the end of the Tribulation?
Some have tried to do this, arguing that the wrath of God is not poured out until the end of the Tribulation. This is concept is called the "pre-wrath Rapture."​
The cornerstone of this concept is that the terrifying events during the first half of the Tribulation are due to the wrath of Man and Satan, and not to God. Since the Church is only promised protection from the wrath of God, the Rapture will not occur until near the end of the Tribulation when God will pour out His wrath on the world.​
This concept raises a serious theological problem because it questions the sovereignty of God. It assumes that Man and Satan can act apart from God's will, when the fact of the matter is that neither can do anything God is not willing to permit. The Bible often portrays God carrying out His will through evil persons or nations. One of the classic examples is when He allowed the evil nation of Babylon to discipline Israel by destroying Jerusalem and the Temple and by carrying the surviving Jews away into captivity. It was an action that prompted the prophet Habakkuk to ask why God would punish those who are evil with those who are more evil (Habakkuk 1:13).​
Any carnage wrought by Man or Satan during the Tribulation will still constitute the wrath of God. They will simply be His instruments. The Bible says God sits in the heavens and laughs over the plots and deeds of evil men, not because He does not care, but because He has everything under control (Psalm 2:1-6). The point is that He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all evil to the triumph of His will in history. That's why the psalmist wrote that "the wrath of man shall praise You [God]" (Psalm 76:10).​
I think it is also important to note that when God pours out His wrath, He does not always do so directly. One of His most common ways is to simply back away from the nation or person and lower the hedge of protection around them. This is clearly spelled out in Romans 1:18-32. That passage says that when people rebel against God to the point that they begin to worship the creation rather than the Creator, God "gives them over" to the evil in their hearts. In other words, He just steps back and lets evil multiply. The passage further states that if they still refuse to repent, He steps back again and "gives them over to degrading passions." And if they persist in their rebellion and sin, He finally "gives them over to a depraved mind" at which point the society destroys itself. Such destruction could be viewed as the wrath of Man, but it is really the wrath of God working through Man.​
There is another serious problem with the pre-wrath Rapture concept. It relates to the fact that all the wrath of Revelation is specifically portrayed as the wrath of God. Where do the seal judgments originate? The answer is from the throne of God as Jesus opens each seal of the scroll that was in the Father's right hand (Revelation 6:1). And where do the trumpet judgments originate? The same place - from the throne of God (Revelation 8:2). When we arrive at the bowl judgments in Revelation 15:1, we are told that with them, "the wrath of God is finished."​
Another problem with the pre-wrath concept is that it does violence to the chronological order of Revelation. The seal judgments are viewed as the wrath of Man and Satan, occurring during the first half of the Tribulation. The trumpet and bowl judgments are considered to be the wrath of God. They are lumped together at the end of the Tribulation. There is no justification for putting the trumpet judgments at the end of the Tribulation. They are clearly placed in the first half of the Tribulation in the chronological layout of the book of Revelation.​
One final problem with the pre-wrath concept of the Rapture is that it disputes the fact that there is no purpose for the Church being in the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel, a time devoted to God accomplishing His purposes among the Jewish people, not the Church.​
Couldn't God just protect believers during
the Tribulation? Is it really necessary to
remove them from the earth?
Yes, the Lord could provide believers with supernatural protection. In fact, He will do precisely that when He provides saints who are present in the Tribulation with protection from the stings of the demonic locust attack that will be part of the trumpet judgments (Revelation 9:4).​
But God's promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection, but one of deliverance. Jesus said that when the signs pointing to the Tribulation "begin to take place," believers are to look up because their "redemption is drawing near" (Luke 21:28). He also urged believers to pray that they might "escape all these things" (Luke 21:36).​
There really is no purpose for the Church to be present during the Tribulation. It is a time of the pouring out of God's wrath upon those who have rejected His grace, love and mercy. There are some who argue that the Church must be "purged" during the Tribulation to purify it. But to me, this idea is absurd. The blood of Jesus is sufficient to cleanse us of all our sins. That is an accomplished fact for those who have put their faith in Jesus (Ephesians 5:26-27). Furthermore, the concept of purging the Church during the Tribulation converts the whole period into a Protestant version of purgatory. It also violates the wedding imagery that the Bible uses to describe the relationship between Christ and His Church. Jesus is not going to beat up His Bride for seven years and then marry her!​
Some who believe that the Church will go through the Tribulation often point to the example of Noah and his family. They were left on the earth as God poured out His wrath, but they were protected by the Lord. But this example ignores the fact that Enoch was raptured out of the world before the flood began (Genesis 5:24). I believe Enoch is a symbolic type of the Church and Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation until the day that the Messiah returns.​
Aren't those of you who believe in a
Pre-Tribulation Rapture a bunch of
escapists who are not willing to suffer for the Lord?
There is nothing wrong with being an "escapist." Noah was an escapist and so was Lot. And Jesus said that when the end time signs begin to appear, we are to pray "to escape the things that are about to take place and to stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36).​
Certainly we are called to suffer for Christ (Romans 8:17). And anyone who truly stands for Jesus in this world will be persecuted (John 15:19). We are assured that as believers we will suffer tribulation in this world (John 16:33), but we are promised that we will be exempted from the great tribulation that will one day come upon all the world (Revelation 3:10).​
 
Oct 5, 2009
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Deep_MindQuest Everything you say is what has been taught for many years now, it is old news and very inaccurate. I know you will disagree with me because you have faith in what you have learned, but perhaps others would like to see the truth.

Let's start with Dan 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times."

The word "until" has been used here. Jesus was here 30 years before he began his ministry. Therefore, 69 weeks had to pass by until he started his ministry or else the prophecy is invalid. The 69 weeks ended and Jesus started his work. This started the seventieth week.

Now look at 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined."

Jesus was cut cut off by the people of the prince who is to come. Now let's see who that prince is. I will quote some of my work, consider the following:

Quote: Daniel talks about the desolate in Dan 9:26. “And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.”This tells us before the end happens that the city will be destroyed and made desolate by the people of the prince who is to come.

“And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Dan 9:27 Since we know that the people will destroy the city, we also know that the prince is going to come as well. He is most likely the one who makes desolate by trying to destroy the kingdom of God that the Messiah was sent to restore. “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.” Dan 9:25

The desolate is anything that is against God. To make something desolate is to bring an end to Godly things. But who is the prince of things to come and who brings on the desolate?

In order to confirm who the prince of the people is, who’s people will destroy the city and make things desolate, we need something to confirm that this is what will happen and see if we can find their leader. Since we know that Jesus has already come we need to look there and see if he said anything that can confirm this, which he did.

“I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.” John 14:30 This tell us that a ruler of some sort is coming to rule the world while Jesus reduces his communication with us and the apostles. This confirms what Daniel also said about a prince who is to come as well. So what did the people of this prince do that can be confirmed as well?

They put Jesus on the cross and in doing so Jesus identified who the ruler that is to come will be. “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.” John 8:44 This tells us that the ones who were after Jesus, the people of the prince to come, are the children of Satan. This confirms the prophecy that Daniel talked about because the people put Jesus on the cross and not Satan himself.

So how do we know the prince is Satan? We find that in the book of Revelation. “He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;” Rev 20:2 This tells us that Satan is the devil, so when Jesus said “You are of your father the devil,” he was talking about Satan. Therefore, we now know that the prince who was to come is none other than Satan. Plus, we now have a connection between Daniel, Jesus, and the book of Revelation, and a war that Ezekiel talks about with Gog and Magog.

But who brought on the desolate? The people did when they put Jesus on the cross. But in some others words, Jesus brought on the desolate because he started the restoration of the kingdom of God and in the middle of the week he was cut off just as prophesied.End Quote.

This is why the Antichrist is not the Man of Sin, Satan is.

Quoting more:

Jesus is the one who confirmed the covenant with many. Jesus is the one who ‘in the midst of the week’ caused the sacrificing to end with the age of grace, and in turn that is what has brought on that which makes desolate when he handed over things to Satan, ‘for the ruler of this world is coming.

This same covenant is also mentioned in the book of Ezekiel as well. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.” 37:26

Notice this, neither God nor Daniel, nor Jesus ever said that the covenant would be broken. So why do so many preach this? It is because they are using the scriptures out of the text and meaning that they have. The covenant will never be broken. End Quoting.

The seventieth week is half over. Jesus ministered for just over three years and then he was here for awhile longer. This way he left in the middle of the week just as Dan 9:27 tells us. The remaining of the week is mentioned in Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days." and Rev 13:5 "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months."

The daily sacrifice are the believers in Christ. The taking away is the Rapture. Satan is given 42 months to continue the 70th week where he will bring on the mark of the beast. This happens before the wrath of God that you are calling the tribulation. The actual time limit of the wrath has not been given anywhere in the bible.

"I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 1:9

The tribulation started when Jesus left and Satan took over and it will end when he is seen coming back with the clouds. The Antichrist came into existence and John told us about it. The Antichrist is not the Man of Sin, Satan is. There is no rise of a future Antichrist, there will be the time where Satan proclaims himself as God. THERE IS NO SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION.

A Seven Year Treaty With Israel

The seven year period following the parousia (the Rapture) and preceding the epiphaneia (the Second Coming in power and glory), is normally divided into two halves. The first three and a half years are characterized by some degree of apparent world peace as the false Messiah (Revelation 13:11-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10, Matthew 24:15) in Israel negotiates a favorable Middle Eastern peace treaty. That peace treaty, described by Isaiah as Israel's "covenant with death," will fail--and terrible war will break out in Israel. The second half of the tribulation period is usually called "The Great Tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) or "the Day of the Lord."

Jeremiah calls it "the time of Jacob's trouble," (Jeremiah 30-31, Daniel 12:1)

Trust in a counterfeit messiah

The Book of Daniel, chapter 9, tells of a future seven year period when "the ruler who will come" will confirm a covenant, presumably with Israel.

After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:26-27)

This "ruler who will come" is the Man of Sin. As mentioned above, he will probably use the wars of the Second Seal as the occasion for instituting this treaty.

Jesus may have been alluding to this future event when He said, "I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him." (John 5:43)

The 144,000 Called

Revelation Chapter Seven describes the calling out of 144,000 select Jewish evangelists from the nation Israel at the beginning of the Tribulation period, probably soon after the Rapture of the church.

12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel

As you can see from the following passage, the 144,000 are specifically God's chosen people, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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people have to be very careful because if they believe this antichrist in Daniel 9 is Jesus then they will be teaching to worship the antichrist as God thats some real scarey stuff i would definetly think if anyones saved that is that they would care enough to look into this its very wrong to set people up for that kinda deception and it would be like serving satan to teach it. be like the Bereans and look into things people realise alot are trying to decieve you in this world, pray and study, you cant have better advice then that.

"I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him." (John 5:43)
 
I

iraasuup

Guest
Okay guys, I've just read this entire thread and I'm seeing some of these posts as quite antagonistic and personal toward specific users.

SO THIS IS A NOTE TO EVERYONE POSTING ON THIS THREAD:

It would be lovely if you could all agree to disagree without the arguing and personal attacks. Please try to remain objective with any reply you make. I'm not saying don't reply, nor am I saying sugar-coat anything. By all means, state your case and back it up with scriptural supporting evidence, but if you can't do this without the attacks on others, I'm going have to close the thread.

Thanks,

Ira :)
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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I really am not sure one way or the other. Wether we will see this in our lifetime or not. I believe it is far more important to live every day as Jesus asks us to and to believe as he asks. The end is when Our Lord God calls us. now or later, it is more important to be always ready. Also to have the faith, hope and love to endure whatever lays ahead.
God bless, pickles
 
Oct 5, 2009
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some say there is no rise of the antichrist that its just satan but if it understood that satan possesses the antichrist then this coming antichrist that we have all herd about all our lives is definetly coming and both a man and satan. we must be careful to not dismiss what we have herd of all our lives as old news and try to replace it with some new view this is very important. its certainly something to study on and look into. certainly no harm is ment by this just look into it satan was a cherub the antichrist is a man. God bless

46 Prophecies the Antichrist will fulfill
1. The antichrist will be a man - Daniel 7:24-25
2. He will confirm a covenant for 7 years - Daniel 9:27
Now also, this does not mean that he creates this covenant. The word here for "confirm" is 1396 gabar (gaw-bar'); a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently: KJV-- exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant. The antichrist will strengthen a covenant for a 7 year time span. Now this could be an existing covenant (like the Jerusalem Covenant) or a new covenant drawn up at that time.
3. He will rise among 10 kings - Daniel 7:8
This 10 nation union will be a revived Holy Roman Empire - Daniel 2:44
4. He will uproot 3 kings from the original 10 kings to gain political power - Daniel 7:8
5. His 10 nation union will merge into a world government which he will dominate - Revelations 13:1-2
Now this also, could refer to several things. First, the 10 nations could merge into an EXISTING world government, such as the U.N. Or it could for a new world government, much like the U.N. Or, this 10 nation confederation could be something like the new 10 nation common stock market. A union like this would definitely rule the world, without having a "seat" of power. Whoever controls the money, controls the globe.
6. He will ascend to power on a platform of peace. By peace, he will destroy many - Daniel 8:25
7. He will be promoted and exalted by a miracle working religious partner (false prophet) - Revelations 13:11-12
8. He was, and is not, and yet is - Revelations 17:8
More than likely this is referring to political power. The antichrist will have ruled, but then be taken out of power. Only to rise back up again to power as the head of the One World Government.
9. The world government over which he rules will be a red (communistic or socialistic) government - Revelations 17:14
10. The antichrist will be preceded by 7 kings or rulers. He will be the 8th king. He will also be "of" the 7 - Revelations 17:11
Now this scripture has many different ways it can be viewed. The word "goeth" in the scripture is 5217 hupago (hoop-ag'-o); from 5259 and 71; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: KJV-- depart, get hence, go (a-) way. So we see that he will withdraw or retire from sight. But will rise back up again to power. Now this could be taken as to mean 7 kings. Or this could be taken as 7 World Governments that have ruled. So far there have been 6. 1. Egypt. 2. Assyria. 3. Babylon. 4. Medo-Persia. 5. Greece. 6. Rome
11. He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8
12. His look will be more stout than his fellows - Daniel 7:20
The word "stout" means 7227 rab (rab); by contracted from 7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality): KJV-- (in) abound (-undance, -ant, -antly), captain, elder, enough, exceedingly, full, great (-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, [time]), (do, have) many (-ifold, things, a time), ([ship-]) master, mighty, more, (too, very) much, multiply (-tude), officer, often [-times], plenteous, populous, prince, process [of time], suffice (-lent). So this can have several meanings. It could mean one of the following: the antichrist will be larger in size than everybody else, will be older than everybody else, will have more of a "following" than anybody else, is a higher military or political rank than anybody else, or is more qualified than anybody else. What ever this verse is speaking about, it is obvious when you look at him.
13. He will have a fierce countenance - Daniel 8:23
14. He will understand puzzling things - Daniel 8:23
15. He will cause craft to prosper - Daniel 8:25
It is interesting to note the definition of the word "craft" here. It is 4820 mirmah (meer-maw'); from 7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: KJV-- craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery. No wonder, for the Bible says that he is the father of lies. So his policy or his success will make it possible for his deception of the world to prosper. God said that if you do not believe the truth, that he would send strong delusion that you should believe a lie.
16. He apparently assumes world dominating power 3 1/2 years after he confirms the covenant. He then will continue to reign for 42 months - Revelations 13:5
17. The Abomination of Desolation is the event that signals the beginning of this final 42 months - Daniel 9:27
It is interesting to note, that many scholars believe that at the Abomination of Desolation is when Revelations 12:7-10 occurs. At which point the Antichrist becomes "possessed" by Satan himself and then forces the Mark or death upon everybody.
18. He opposes God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
19. He will speak marvelous things against the God of gods - Daniel 11:36
20. He will exalt himself above all that is called God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
21. He will sit in the temple of God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
22. He will claim to be God (or an incarnation of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
23. He will take away the daily sacrifices from the temple - Daniel 11:31
24. He will plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain - Daniel 11:45
It would seem here that the Antichrist will setup small "fortifications" in between the sea and Jerusalem, to help keep control over things in distant areas away from the main offices.
25. He will have power to make war with the saints and to overcome them - Revelations 13:7
26. He will continue this war with the saints for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:21, 25
27. This time of Great Tribulation is launched upon the Earth by the antichrist at the Abomination of Desolation. - Matthew 24:15,21.
Up until this time, it would seem that he is a man of peace and not war. But now he shows his true colors. Perhaps is possessed by Satan himself at this point as well. Which would account for the false front being dropped at this time.
28. During this time, the antichrist will scatter the power of the holy people - Daniel 12:7
29. He will rule a mighty and strong kingdom - Daniel 7:7
30. He was given power over all kindreds, tongues and nations - Revelations 13:7
31. His kingdom will devour the whole earth - Daniel 7:23
32. He will have great military power that will stand behind him, to enforce his laws - Daniel 11:31
33. He will try to change times and laws; and they will be given into his power for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:25
34. He will give great honor to the God of forces, with gold, silver, jewels, etc - Daniel 11:38
35. He will prosper in everything that he does - Daniel 8:24
36. He will not regard the God of his fathers - Daniel 11:37
37. He will not regard the desire of women - Daniel 11:37
It is interesting to note here that most people think that he will be a homosexual, which could be. But rather I think that he will place limitations upon children being born. Similar to what is being done in China now. Why? Because it is the natural desire of a woman, that God has given to them, to be a mother. By not regarding this natural desire, he would cause a "forced" limit on the amount of children a woman was "allowed" to have.
38. The mark of the beast will be the amount of his name - Revelations 14:11
39. All that dwell upon the Earth will worship him, except those who's names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life - Revelations 15:2
40. He will have an image made after him - Revelations 15:2
This could also be in reference to his kingdom's logo or insignia. Much like the U.N. has a logo that every soldier on a U.N. mission must wear, there might also be a logo or insignia that his armies would have to wear
His coming will be after the workings of Satan - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
41. He will fight against Jesus Christ at Armageddon (and loose I might add!) - Revelations 17:14
42. He will stand against the Prince of princes - Daniel 8:25
43. The Lord will consume him with the spirit of his mouth (which is the Word of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
44. The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming (which is his glory) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
45. He will be cast alive into the lake of fire - Revelations 19:20
46. He will be tormented day and night for ever and ever - Revelations 20:10
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Deep_mindquest you look like magnum P.I. so I think we should listen to what you say.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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The Mystery of The Rapture
Why isn't the Rapture mentioned
in the book of Revelation?

Actually it is and it is after the Tribulation. Revelation calls it the first resurrection.
Revelation 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
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Deep_MindQuest You posted a lot of junk here and all of it can be refuted. I will copy what you have said and present my answer with facts later. I do have a life and things to do besides sit at a computer. As I have pointed out already, you have been lead down a path of believing something that was never prophesied to happen. You are not aware that the Antichrist is not a man, but a spirit. You are not aware that the 'man' of sin is Satan, and yet he is not a man either.

There is NO REASON to believe anything you have said. And if you think you can quote scriptures inferring that I am not of God then you're wasting your time. Scriptures and words are just that, when will religious addicts ever figure that out? There is a lot for you to learn my friend. You really don't know what deception is.
 
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The Mystery of The Rapture
To begin with, you need to understand one mystery that is never taught. There are three separate ‘Raptures’ that will take place when Jesus returns. “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” That’s one. “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” That’s two. “Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” Rev 20:4 That’s three.

2 Th 2:3 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
Right now no one knows what will bring on this falling away. If Paul is correct, then the falling away will take people away from biblical belief. In order to do that he must prove to the masses that the bible is incorrect. To do so will be to refute it entire development, which can’t be done simply because people will always believe in the bible just like people today still believe in the ancient Gods, and where some believe in aliens.

I believe that restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the Church.
Read your bible again: “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . for that Day WILL NOT come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,” Satan will be revealed before Jesus returns.

The Bible never specifically defines the timing of the Rapture
This is true. However, you misrepresent this:

Jesus stated that when the end time signs "begin to take place," we are to look up, for our redemption will be drawing near (Luke 21:28). Note that the redemption will come not at the end of the signs, but as they begin to take place.
He said it was near, but it is still not going to happen until the other signs occur. There is a difference between being near and taking place.

"because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).
This is one of the most widely misused scriptures. Plus, I think this church is no longer practicing. The hour of testing is not the tribulation, but the hour Satan proclaims himself to be God where the mark of the beast will take place. The wrath and tribulation are not the same event.

Aren't those of you who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture a bunch of escapists who are not willing to suffer for the Lord?
No. They are just deceived. They don’t know about the three raptures that will take place either.

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:26-27)

This "ruler who will come" is the Man of Sin. As mentioned above, he will probably use the wars of the Second Seal as the occasion for instituting this treaty.
You grossly misrepresented Dan 9:26 and 27.

And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. (27)Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The man of sin is not the one who destroys the city, it is destroyed by his people. The ONE who makes desolate came over 200 years ago.

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” John 12:31 “will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.” John 14:30 “the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: . . . of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.” John 16:11


In order for the Holy Spirit to convict Satan, Satan must be present at the same time the Holy Spirit is present. The ruler of this world came when Jesus left, that ruler is Satan (the man of sin) and we agree on that, but he is already here.

Revelation Chapter Seven describes the calling out of 144,000 select Jewish evangelists from the nation Israel at the beginning of the Tribulation period, probably soon after the Rapture of the church.
The 144,000 will help Jesus fight during the wrath of God. That is why they bare the seal of God in their foreheads. They are not part of the Tribulation and it is not clear if they are here already or if they were resurrected for this event since the wrath comes after the 2nd and possibly 3rd Rapture.

certainly no harm is ment by this just look into it satan was a cherub the antichrist is a man.
Isaiah 14:12 thru 16 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the MAN who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,

Lucifer, or Satan, is called a man. He is also called the man of sin. The reference to man here carries the same weight as man of God or mankind. “And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.” Dan 8:23

For years people believed this event happened before Jesus came to be by Antiochus Epiphanes who arose out of Syria, one of the four kingdoms, 170 BC. The key indication is “in the latter time of their kingdom.”

If you take the visions given to Daniel you see that they happen at different times. If you consider the succession of these, then it is highly possible that this event is already over because Jesus is not mentioned to Daniel until the vision he receives in the ninth chapter.

Daniel receives more information and when you get to chapter 11 you start to see where Daniel is told about a ‘man.’ Now is where you use understanding. “He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.” Dan 11:37

“(1)At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.(2) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Dan 12:1-2

This is the Rapture that many believe is coming. However, we already know there will be three when Jesus returns and two after the millennium. Therefore, we know that verse 2 is talking about the Day of Judgment when the seventh resurrection will take place. I say that because No One can be resurrected to everlasting contempt unless it is on the Day of Judgment.

Now let’s recap. Satan is the man of sin, he is also the ruler of this world, that makes him a King. He has done and continues to do all the things Daniel said was going to happen to the children of God.
 
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46 Prophecies the Antichrist will fulfill
[FONT=&quot]1. The antichrist will be a man - Daniel 7:24-25 FALSE
2. He will confirm a covenant for 7 years - Daniel 9:27 FALSE
Now also, this does not mean that he creates this covenant. The word here for "confirm" is 1396 gabar (gaw-bar'); a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently: KJV-- exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant. The antichrist will strengthen a covenant for a 7 year time span. Now this could be an existing covenant (like the Jerusalem Covenant) or a new covenant drawn up at that time.
3. He will rise among 10 kings - Daniel 7:8 FALSE, ALREADY DONE
This 10 nation union will be a revived Holy Roman Empire - Daniel 2:44
4. He will uproot 3 kings from the original 10 kings to gain political power - Daniel 7:8 FALSE, ALREADY DONE
5. His 10 nation union will merge into a world government which he will dominate - Revelations 13:1-2 FALSE, There is no evidence of a one world government. The world can act as one and still be separated. 10 leaders, mean 10 governments.
Now this also, could refer to several things. First, the 10 nations could merge into an EXISTING world government, such as the U.N. Or it could for a new world government, much like the U.N. Or, this 10 nation confederation could be something like the new 10 nation common stock market. A union like this would definitely rule the world, without having a "seat" of power. Whoever controls the money, controls the globe.
6. He will ascend to power on a platform of peace. By peace, he will destroy many - Daniel 8:25 FALSE, ALREADY DONE
7. He will be promoted and exalted by a miracle working religious partner (false prophet) - Revelations 13:11-12 TRUE, but Satan is the leader, not a human. And he is already at work trying to do just that.
8. He was, and is not, and yet is - Revelations 17:8
More than likely this is referring to political power. The antichrist will have ruled, but then be taken out of power. Only to rise back up again to power as the head of the One World Government. You read too much fiction. The unveiling of this beast will take place when the Man of sin is revealed. That will happen with the beast with 2 horns like a lamb. It is then that the mystery of the seven heads will be revealed, not now. “[/FONT]And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, . . when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” It has not been revealed yet. That is why I say and have been saying that no one knows what the mark of the beast is until the abomination of desolation is set up.Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),” Mat 24:15 Until that happens, there will not be any Rapture.
[FONT=&quot]9. The world government over which he rules will be a red (communistic or socialistic) government - Revelations 17:14 FALSE, Freedom will be the prevailing life style.
10. The antichrist will be preceded by 7 kings or rulers. He will be the 8th king. He will also be "of" the 7 - Revelations 17:11
Now this scripture has many different ways it can be viewed. The word "goeth" in the scripture is 5217 hupago (hoop-ag'-o); from 5259 and 71; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: KJV-- depart, get hence, go (a-) way. So we see that he will withdraw or retire from sight. But will rise back up again to power. Now this could be taken as to mean 7 kings. Or this could be taken as 7 World Governments that have ruled. So far there have been 6. 1. Egypt. 2. Assyria. 3. Babylon. 4. Medo-Persia. 5. Greece. 6. Rome False, [/FONT]Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place.[FONT=&quot]
11. He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8 TRUE, but he already does that in false teachings and everyday life. It will not be a new event.
12. His look will be more stout than his fellows - Daniel 7:20
The word "stout" means 7227 rab (rab); by contracted from 7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality): KJV-- (in) abound (-undance, -ant, -antly), captain, elder, enough, exceedingly, full, great (-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, [time]), (do, have) many (-ifold, things, a time), ([ship-]) master, mighty, more, (too, very) much, multiply (-tude), officer, often [-times], plenteous, populous, prince, process [of time], suffice (-lent). So this can have several meanings. It could mean one of the following: the antichrist will be larger in size than everybody else, will be older than everybody else, will have more of a "following" than anybody else, is a higher military or political rank than anybody else, or is more qualified than anybody else. What ever this verse is speaking about, it is obvious when you look at him. FALSE, ALREADY DONE
13. He will have a fierce countenance - Daniel 8:23 FALSE, ALREADY DONE
14. He will understand puzzling things - Daniel 8:23 FALSE, ALREADY DONE
15. He will cause craft to prosper - Daniel 8:25 FALSE, ALREADY DONE
It is interesting to note the definition of the word "craft" here. It is 4820 mirmah (meer-maw'); from 7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: KJV-- craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery. No wonder, for the Bible says that he is the father of lies. So his policy or his success will make it possible for his deception of the world to prosper. God said that if you do not believe the truth, that he would send strong delusion that you should believe a lie.
16. He apparently assumes world dominating power 3 1/2 years after he confirms the covenant. He then will continue to reign for 42 months - Revelations 13:5 False and TRUE, because Jesus used up the first half of the week to make and confirm his covenant of eternal life. Satan cannot confirm a covenant with God, only a man of God can do that. But Satan will finish the last half.
17. The Abomination of Desolation is the event that signals the beginning of this final 42 months - Daniel 9:27 TRUE
It is interesting to note, that many scholars believe that at the Abomination of Desolation is when Revelations 12:7-10 occurs. At which point the Antichrist becomes "possessed" by Satan himself and then forces the Mark or death upon everybody. This is a war that has already taken place. Revelation has past present and future events in it. Satan will not posses a man, He wants to be God and God is a spirit. No one would believe a man, but many will believe a voice mimicking God when he causes the abomination to speak.
18. He opposes God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4 TRUE, but it is Satan and not a man.
19. He will speak marvelous things against the God of gods - Daniel 11:36 TRUE, but it is Satan and not a man.

20. He will exalt himself above all that is called God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4 TRUE, but it is Satan and not a man.

21. He will sit in the temple of God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4 TRUE, but it is Satan and not a man.

22. He will claim to be God (or an incarnation of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:4 TRUE, but it is Satan and not a man.

23. He will take away the daily sacrifices from the temple - Daniel 11:31 FALSE, the rapture is the taking away. The daily sacrifices are the believers in Christ.
24. He will plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain - Daniel 11:45 Probable.
It would seem here that the Antichrist will setup small "fortifications" in between the sea and Jerusalem, to help keep control over things in distant areas away from the main offices.
25. He will have power to make war with the saints and to overcome them - Revelations 13:7 Satan does this daily.
26. He will continue this war with the saints for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:21, 25 FALSE,
27. This time of Great Tribulation is launched upon the Earth by the antichrist at the Abomination of Desolation. - Matthew 24:15,21. FALSE,
Up until this time, it would seem that he is a man of peace and not war. But now he shows his true colors. Perhaps is possessed by Satan himself at this point as well. Which would account for the false front being dropped at this time. FALSE,
28. During this time, the antichrist will scatter the power of the holy people - Daniel 12:7 FALSE, once again it is Satan who does this with the use of his children, like the ones who put Jesus on the cross. Time, times and half a time is seven thousand years.
29. He will rule a mighty and strong kingdom - Daniel 7:7 FALSE, ALREADY DONE
30. He was given power over all kindreds, tongues and nations - Revelations 13:7 TRUE, this is what he does daily, every day. The war is the battle between Good and Evil. It is not a physical war.
31. His kingdom will devour the whole earth - Daniel 7:23 FALSE, ALREADY DONE, read Dan 7:25. The persecution comes after this event.

32. He will have great military power that will stand behind him, to enforce his laws - Daniel 11:31 There is no indication that this will be done with an army. This can be done politically by any structure of government or religion.
33. He will try to change times and laws; and they will be given into his power for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:25 Nothing in 7:25 talks about a 3 ½ year period.
34. He will give great honor to the God of forces, with gold, silver, jewels, etc - Daniel 11:38 To make oneself a God, one must create a God that does not exist and has never been heard of. That is why the mark of the beast is unknown at this time and the number of a “man.” Man means God.
35. He will prosper in everything that he does - Daniel 8:24 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]36. He will not regard the God of his fathers - Daniel 11:37
37. He will not regard the desire of women - Daniel 11:37
It is interesting to note here that most people think that he will be a homosexual, which could be. But rather I think that he will place limitations upon children being born. Similar to what is being done in China now. Why? Because it is the natural desire of a woman, that God has given to them, to be a mother. By not regarding this natural desire, he would cause a "forced" limit on the amount of children a woman was "allowed" to have.
38. The mark of the beast will be the amount of his name - Revelations 14:11
39. All that dwell upon the Earth will worship him, except those who's names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life - Revelations 15:2
40. He will have an image made after him - Revelations 15:2
This could also be in reference to his kingdom's logo or insignia. Much like the U.N. has a logo that every soldier on a U.N. mission must wear, there might also be a logo or insignia that his armies would have to wear
His coming will be after the workings of Satan - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
41. He will fight against Jesus Christ at Armageddon (and loose I might add!) - Revelations 17:14
42. He will stand against the Prince of princes - Daniel 8:25
43. The Lord will consume him with the spirit of his mouth (which is the Word of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
44. The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming (which is his glory) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
45. He will be cast alive into the lake of fire - Revelations 19:20
46. He will be tormented day and night for ever and ever - Revelations 20:10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As for the rest of what you said, you’re repeating yourself and you still don’t get it because you don’t understand what the Antichrist is. To many people have taught that it is a man, when the apostle John said it is a spirit. The Antichrist and Satan are not one in the same.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Take most of what you have learned and apply Satan to it and then see if you can see the spirit of the antichrist working.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This tread is about a pre-tribulation Rapture. You’re not showing any evidence of a pre-trib Rapture and you have left two of them out along with the two that take place after the millennium.[/FONT]
 
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I have no need to discuss this subject any further. All you want to do is argue. I DO NOT believe the false things taught on television each and every week everyday of the year. The bible is clearly written. Obviously, some people do not understand the very bible they teach and it's been going on for years. You will believe what you believe until you learn otherwise or die. It makes no difference to me or effect my life. I am done with this topic.
 
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