Free will? really?

[phil36]

[homewardbound] Has God redeemed you to sin more and more over and over? The only way one in Christ sins again is when that one has left Humility

.

There a 2 points about your above point.

1) Sin is not leaving humility (you have a skewed view of sin)

2)We are not redeemed to carry on sinning (I have repeated this to you a few times) and Paul explains that very well.

also you miss the point of what it means to be free in Christ,....


So you have a strange view on what sin is, you don't understand freedom in Christ from the bondage of sin, and you confuse mans state and condition (before and after being saved). and that is how you think your sinless.


"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (1 John1 :8-10)

Now remember John was writing to Christians..

 

[phil36]

[homewardbound] Has God redeemed you to sin more and more over and over? The only way one in Christ sins again is when that one has left Humility

.

There a 2 points about your above point.

1) Sin is not leaving humility (you have a skewed view of sin)

2)We are not redeemed to carry on sinning (I have repeated this to you a few times) and Paul explains that very well.

also you miss the point of what it means to be free in Christ,....


So you have a strange view on what sin is, you don't understand freedom in Christ from the bondage of sin, and you confuse mans state with condition (before and after being saved). and that is how you think your sinless.


"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (1 John1 :8-10)

Now remember John was writing to Christians..

 

[phil36]

I think in a debate that would be the general idea homeward.! however it depends on what you mean. what do you think the agenda is..since you think there is one?

 

[SpiritofFire]

Yes I like to learn, and I like to be able to choose good. Does the Bible explain why God created man?

He made man for His good pleasure, and to share life with him.

 

[sunnysky31]

If he has his own agenda, this he is experiencing "free will". Precisely the term that we seem to be having difficulty understanding here. Ironic isn't it??

 

[SpiritofFire]

Proverbs 16:9

[SUP]9 [/SUP]A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

How does God direct our steps?

Jeremiah 10:23-24

[SUP]23 [/SUP]O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O Lord, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

In other words, man can only choose what God has provided! For all that man eats to fill his belly, ends in death.

 

[Sanashankar]

Actually i think its "mans arrogance" to say "its mans arrogance to say he has free will"
And mans arrogance to say Gods attitude to it would be clueless...just old cliches.
Have you heard of Noahs flood? Whats the dance to explain that?

What is there to explain abt Noah's flood. How does Noah's flood prove we have free will? there is so many such incidents in the bible.
I do not think God is clueless abt whats already happened, and what is going to happen. he has declared it thru the prophets long before.
If we take daily life matters, we see we always do things because there is an internal or external cause behind it. That cause is made by God. Now he will not tell us what to do, in our ears, but he will put us in such situations.
I can't suddenly stop smoking just because i want to, there will be a reason behind me stoping, maybe the Doc wud say, i will die if i don't, or my husband says u shud stop smoking. There is always a cause behing whatever we do.
Paul did not accept Jesus Christ with his free will. God made him do that.
We say God is sovereign. How much, half or full? Everything is in his control. We amke choices in our life, but that choice is made upon what situations we are in. Its so simple.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Don't you think it is my arrogance if i say, i chose God, when God clearly said

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Acts 13:48 And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
2 thess 2:13God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation..

You know thr truth, u understands the bible, u know the love of God, because He wanted u to know. He chose u. There are a lot of unfortunate people out there who are not blessed like u. very good people who doesn't know God. But that is God's plan,

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Children of God are prepared in this world for the 1000 years millenium reign. Only few are chosen for that. the rest will come to the knowledge thru judgement. they will learn righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Is it not the master plan of God???i wish to believe it.

 

[Cino]

When God created Adam and Eve, God told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, or ye shall surely die. They had a choice too. They were instructed not to eat that fruit. Eve was tempted, she succumbed to the temptation by listening to the serpent. Adam was tempted, he too gave in. So, instead of listening to God and obeying God's word, they were deceived by Satan and made the choice to eat it, even though God warned them they would surely die. Today, we have the sin of Adam and Eve on us, and we too, have that same choice. God has given us another chance to reunite with Him through His son Jesus Christ.

 

[Cino]

One more thought about free will. God doesn't damn anyone ever. God left instructions in His word how to have salvation. It is our choice. The Bible says he who does not believe and is not baptized shall be damned. I guess you could say the definition of Damned is God leaving alone those who do not want to be bothered by him. Damnation is to those who insist on having it their own way. Hell is having it your own way.

 

[RickShafer]

Wow! is there a battle for control going on here? Flesh fighting flesh Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is a political argument he is making.
Not a spiritual one.
Politics are in the material realm.
So is carnal (flesh).
If you had read back a few pages you would have seen the context.

 

[homwardbound]

Does a robot ask why it is programmed? no it just does what it is programmed to do.

Let me ask you a question, are you free to ask that question? or are you robot?

You know no we are not Robots, yet this world does its best in programming us as if we are, using sensual desires to get us to do this or that in buying their products.
Because no matter what as a man believes so is he.

 

[homwardbound]

God is creating children in His very Own Spiritual Image.

God created us and put us into this world (hell) to learn so many things. I always ask How do we appreciate goodness if we don't know what bad is? God want us to experience everything now so wegrow and mature and be spiritual image of God.

Hb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

Hb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Suffered in the days of his flesh. So there is a good reason behind, being in flesh. We learn obedience to God, not within a day...but eventually.

If you notice in Genesis

Gn 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him;

Here are the words from a Hebrew Interlinear: "uibra = and-he-is-creating / aleim - Elohim [God] / eadm ath = the-human / btzimu = in-image-of-him / btzim = in-image-of / aleim =
Elohim [God] / bra = he-creates / athu = him / zkr = male / unqbe = and-female / bra= he-creates / athm = them."

it is C-R-E-A-T-I-N-G not created in hebrew. See how it is translated correctly

"And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Concordant Literal Old Testament).

He is not done with it. He is still in the process of changing us into his image. spiritual image. The life in this world is the way.

Good answer yet it still does not answer the ? Why did God create us? We know yes in his image, yes God loves us. Truth beyond measure. Yet WHY did God create us?
I think the answer is to by free will serve him
"But to serve" in the Bible: Matthew 20:28
One of the radical actions of Jesus was his proclivity to serve rather than to sit back and be served. What this translated to was a life filled with acts of amazing humilty, culminating in his final sacrifice on the cross as a ransom for the world.
Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

 

[homwardbound]

.

There a 2 points about your above point.

1) Sin is not leaving humility (you have a skewed view of sin)

2)We are not redeemed to carry on sinning (I have repeated this to you a few times) and Paul explains that very well.

also you miss the point of what it means to be free in Christ,....


So you have a strange view on what sin is, you don't understand freedom in Christ from the bondage of sin, and you confuse mans state and condition (before and after being saved). and that is how you think your sinless.


"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (1 John1 :8-10)

Now remember John was writing to Christians..

Never once have I ever claimed to be sinless, I have only claimed God to be sinless, and God through Christ has made me sinless unless you do not believe God in this below verse through the death of Christ we are presented to God the Father as sinless, which is amazing news, and I am thankful for Christ and have thus died with Christ on the cross and have been made alive with Christ by the resurrection or don't you know this
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

[h=3]Romans 6:3-4[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Are you baptized into his death? then what does scripture say and we should what not sin anymore if we be dead with Christ then we are alive to God, but death must come first and this death is death of the self Phil36

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

 

[homwardbound]

.

There a 2 points about your above point.

1) Sin is not leaving humility (you have a skewed view of sin)

2)We are not redeemed to carry on sinning (I have repeated this to you a few times) and Paul explains that very well.

also you miss the point of what it means to be free in Christ,....


So you have a strange view on what sin is, you don't understand freedom in Christ from the bondage of sin, and you confuse mans state with condition (before and after being saved). and that is how you think your sinless.


"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (1 John1 :8-10)

Now remember John was writing to Christians..

What does the sin? Flesh or Spirit of God?
And yes John was and what did he say
[h=3]1 John 2:1-4[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [SUP]2 [/SUP]and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Is not his commandment to believe "into" him and thus we receive the Love of God spread abroad in us the love of 1 Cor. 13:4-13, born again in the Spirit of God dead to flesh sin and alive to God. HMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why you can't get this unless God is just not revealing this to you as of yet and I trust God to do as God knows what is best to do
Thanks for your posts, free will.

 

[phil36]

To answer the OP question:

God made man in His Image, with the ability to be in His likeness, and gave man authority on life of the earth - Genesis 1:26

God then gave man instructions - Genesis 2:16-17 - with instructions and made in the image of God, that tells us there that man was given a mind to think with and free will to choose with. Otherwise He wouldn't have instructed us of anything if we were bounded by only one directional thought. He gave us choice, choice is free will.

Hi Bryan,

Thanks for that, What we do know before Genesis 3, is that God had created Adam and Eve as the pinnacle of creation, and most certainly they had a will and they could choose..and they could choose evil.

However, and this is the bit most people ignore especially in a discussion like this is that something terrible happens between the verses you provide (Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3. we are born with a sin nature because of Genesis 3.

I think you are very close to understanding what is being said. you said that

However it is a giant leap to say because we have choice our choice is free will? I agree we have choice, but that choice is tied to the will..that will is of a sin nature, and no man in his sinful nature/will, will choose God.Man can certainly make choices but none of these choices will either choose God (romans 3) nor will they choose anything righteous or act righteously. That does not mean your choices are not freely done, but are freely done from who you are...

people think that if God determines everything they are robots..so therefore they must be 'absolute' in their freedom to choose. There is 2 reasons for this:

1) Some still can't let go that they control their own destiny.. I will decide if I want God or not (even though scripture says man will never choose God)

2) they do not understand that to have total free will you nee to able to make choices that are outside of your nature..which is impossible (although you will often here if someone has done wrong.. 'that wasn't like him it's not in his nature' - well the true fact is that it was his nature or else he would not have done it).

So everyone makes choices everyday, thousands of them, millions of choices every month, but they are not 'free' as in you will choose to do something outside of your nature.

Regarding, salvation, no man an make a moral choice that is pleasing to God..

1) we are in bondage to sin, are nature is sinful

2)are good works are as filthy rags..

So yes we make real choices and freely from our nature (free agency) but that is different from making choices outside of who you are.

So how does all this work, how can God determine beforehand that something is going to happen without infringing on our wills? (its this question that makes people think they have a 'free will').

Well I have answered this in post 109, if you want to read it, it's here :

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/70446-free-will-really-6.html#post1139724

 

[phil36]

I cannot recall seeing free will anywhere, but dont quote me.
I do recall a scripture where God said before man are fire and water, he chooses.
Scripture also says that God does not give as the world does, I refrance this simply because...
From what I have read of the scriptures I see all as both.
Gods hand deciding and our will given t Him.
For only God can give and offer both.

God bless
pickles

Hi Pickles nice post.. I posted about this here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/70446-free-will-really-6.html#post1139724

Hope your keeping ok, this is the first week back after a lengthy break.

Phil

 

[homwardbound]

I think in a debate that would be the general idea homeward.! however it depends on what you mean. what do you think the agenda is..since you think there is one?

"FREE WILL" God gave us that from day one, yet warned Adam what would happen if he ate from that tree of evil period is what I call that tree, Evil that masquerades as good and is what flesh has done ever since except those that put Faith in God and believed God as well as those that have chosen by free will to believe, God saves, and counts that as righteousness.
And we have the freedom to choose to believe "into" God or not believe.
No free will, no true Love, we are thus Puppets and if we are Puppets on strings as it seems you are claiming this to be.
Then God is a liar and can't claim to love us, if no free will
Hope we are clear to the truth of God, from God to you

 

[homwardbound]

When God created Adam and Eve, God told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, or ye shall surely die. They had a choice too. They were instructed not to eat that fruit. Eve was tempted, she succumbed to the temptation by listening to the serpent. Adam was tempted, he too gave in. So, instead of listening to God and obeying God's word, they were deceived by Satan and made the choice to eat it, even though God warned them they would surely die. Today, we have the sin of Adam and Eve on us, and we too, have that same choice. God has given us another chance to reunite with Him through His son Jesus Christ.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only way to Father is through Christ at the cross first death for us all, then life at the resurrection of Christ in the Spirit of God the Father, Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[homwardbound]

It is a political argument he is making.
Not a spiritual one.
Politics are in the material realm.
So is carnal (flesh).
If you had read back a few pages you would have seen the context.

So what is it that we are born again of flesh nature or the Spirit f God restored back in us before the fall?
Are we not to do and say as God leads, not as flesh?
That is all I am talking about to you Brother, all in love to you God's type 1 Cor. 13:4-13

 

[phil36]

Hi Homewardbound...

Your above post really shows you have not actually read what is being said. Anyhow I have read your post but not sure what you mean by 'tree of evil period' ?

An no I do not think you are very clear... and your last statement really shows your ignorance of the topic.

I chose Jesus