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A
ok Phil I agree with you lets remind them then of Scripture. that normally ends most debate if people actually READ the HOLY Bible. (sigh)
Romans 3:
Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“ That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”[a]
Romans 2:25-29 (New King James Version)
Circumcision of No Avail
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
circumcision is the sign of the COVENANT with God.
Just a reminder to keep this debate CHRISTIAN meaning CHRIST-like.
Romans 6:20-23 (New King James Version)
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Praise be to GOD on HIGH!!!
Romans 3:
Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“ That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”[a]
Romans 2:25-29 (New King James Version)
Circumcision of No Avail
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
circumcision is the sign of the COVENANT with God.
Just a reminder to keep this debate CHRISTIAN meaning CHRIST-like.
Romans 6:20-23 (New King James Version)
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Praise be to GOD on HIGH!!!
D
What is the Philip Mauro telling?
Interesting: this is the key text: He said So we have to read Rom 9 and 10,
Soo what do we read.. some texted of proof from Philip Mauro:
Rom 9: 5 of whom are the fathers, and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac
24 even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Hosea: "I will call them ‘My people,’ who were not My people, and ‘her beloved’ who was not beloved."
27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
So Paul is here speaking about the physical Israel and the gentils. Spoke he about that the church replaced Israel in their postition? Or is he speaken about the gentils who is coming next to the Jews.
So.. and the chapter 10
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
and
19 But I ask, did not Israel know? First Moses saith, "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."
20 But Isaiah is very bold and saith, "I was found by them that sought Me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after Me."
21 But to Israel he saith, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
Well.. if Paul stopped here.. than he was so right.. because mr.Mauro.. but Paul didn't stop...
To understand everything well: Paul is talking here about the believers out of the Jews and Gentils.
He is talking about the physic Israel..
and now Paul is write further..we can find it in Rom 11:1 after 10:21.. (what we made.. but it is one hole)
it is pity that mr. Mauro didn't write here abou in the context of 9-10.. why???? Well if he did that.. he had to admit that Paul is now talking about the Physic Israel...
21 But to Israel he saith, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
1 I ask then: Hath God cast away His people? God forbid! For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Know ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah, how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets and torn down Thine altars, and I am left alone and they seek my life"?
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then, at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ohh is Paul now talking about the church, the whole body of God? Noo of course not.. He is still talking about the natural Israel.. Mr. Mauro knows that too.. Further chapter 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded,
8 according as it is written: "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day."
9 And David saith, "Let their table be made a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense unto them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their backs always."
And of course here Paul is talking about the natural Israel..
And from vs 17 the example of the olivetree is coming.... who are the natural branches? Well mr. Mauro knows too that the here is talking about the natural Israel.. and the wildbranches are the gentils...
and now the final:
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins."
the secret: Paul reveal a secret.. that the blindness in part happened to Israel (the natural Israel) until the fulness of the gentils (the wild branches) And than Israel will be saved.. And now, mr. Mauro said..no all israel is the complete church..
Well nice try..but he forgot the next verse.. for this is My covenant unto THEM (natural Israel) when I shall take away their sins..
Interesting is that mr.Mauro this forgot.. Interesting is that 72 times Israel is pointed to the natural Israel and never to the church or gentils.
A short reply at the fallacy (or false teaching) of Phillip Mauro.
Interesting: this is the key text: He said So we have to read Rom 9 and 10,
Soo what do we read.. some texted of proof from Philip Mauro:
Rom 9: 5 of whom are the fathers, and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac
24 even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Hosea: "I will call them ‘My people,’ who were not My people, and ‘her beloved’ who was not beloved."
27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
So Paul is here speaking about the physical Israel and the gentils. Spoke he about that the church replaced Israel in their postition? Or is he speaken about the gentils who is coming next to the Jews.
So.. and the chapter 10
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
and
19 But I ask, did not Israel know? First Moses saith, "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."
20 But Isaiah is very bold and saith, "I was found by them that sought Me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after Me."
21 But to Israel he saith, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
Well.. if Paul stopped here.. than he was so right.. because mr.Mauro.. but Paul didn't stop...
To understand everything well: Paul is talking here about the believers out of the Jews and Gentils.
He is talking about the physic Israel..
and now Paul is write further..we can find it in Rom 11:1 after 10:21.. (what we made.. but it is one hole)
it is pity that mr. Mauro didn't write here abou in the context of 9-10.. why???? Well if he did that.. he had to admit that Paul is now talking about the Physic Israel...
21 But to Israel he saith, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
1 I ask then: Hath God cast away His people? God forbid! For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Know ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah, how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets and torn down Thine altars, and I am left alone and they seek my life"?
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then, at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ohh is Paul now talking about the church, the whole body of God? Noo of course not.. He is still talking about the natural Israel.. Mr. Mauro knows that too.. Further chapter 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded,
8 according as it is written: "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day."
9 And David saith, "Let their table be made a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense unto them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their backs always."
And of course here Paul is talking about the natural Israel..
And from vs 17 the example of the olivetree is coming.... who are the natural branches? Well mr. Mauro knows too that the here is talking about the natural Israel.. and the wildbranches are the gentils...
and now the final:
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins."
the secret: Paul reveal a secret.. that the blindness in part happened to Israel (the natural Israel) until the fulness of the gentils (the wild branches) And than Israel will be saved.. And now, mr. Mauro said..no all israel is the complete church..
Well nice try..but he forgot the next verse.. for this is My covenant unto THEM (natural Israel) when I shall take away their sins..
Interesting is that mr.Mauro this forgot.. Interesting is that 72 times Israel is pointed to the natural Israel and never to the church or gentils.
A short reply at the fallacy (or false teaching) of Phillip Mauro.
Genesis 12,15,17 John 8, Galatians 3. Thats just from memory at work here.
Who are now the Children of Abraham? it is those who have been justified by Faith in Christ, it is the spiritual Children not the Physical, in Christ.
Now the gentiles have also been grafted into the vine????
I am not saying that God does not have a plan for a remnant of Physical jews, but they will be saved by Faith in Christ for there is no other name under hevean that will save anyone. remmeber, THERE is neither JEW, nor GREEK nor SLave... but ONE in Christ!
Please read the Biblical text above, pertaining to promises given to Abraham and the fulfillment of them in Christ. The promise to Abraham of the land is still yet to be fulfilled and it will when all Gods Children enter the New Jerusalem.
Phil
Who are now the Children of Abraham? it is those who have been justified by Faith in Christ, it is the spiritual Children not the Physical, in Christ.
Now the gentiles have also been grafted into the vine????
I am not saying that God does not have a plan for a remnant of Physical jews, but they will be saved by Faith in Christ for there is no other name under hevean that will save anyone. remmeber, THERE is neither JEW, nor GREEK nor SLave... but ONE in Christ!
Please read the Biblical text above, pertaining to promises given to Abraham and the fulfillment of them in Christ. The promise to Abraham of the land is still yet to be fulfilled and it will when all Gods Children enter the New Jerusalem.
Phil
D
Well I ask you about the text where God is saying. Church you are now Israel.. Because that is what you proclaim. Because in my Dutch Bible, I can't find it. I don't say we are childeren from Abraham. Abraham wasn't a Jew.And we didn't replaced Israel. Remember even Ismael got blessings from the Lord. And the Lord kept His word. And yes we are the Spiritual childeren from Abraham through Christ. That isn't the issue.
I never said that there is a 2 road of saving. I agree even with you that we are one in Christ. That is not the issue. But when you read Act 21-24 you can read that Paul even offer. And that he taught the Mosianic law, but only for Jews.
21 And they are informed about thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, nor walk according to the customs.
22 What is therefore to be done? The multitude must surely come together, for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this which we say to thee: We have four men who have taken a vow upon themselves.
24 Take them and purify thyself with them, and bear their charges with them, that they may shave their heads; and all may know that those things of which they have been informed concerning thee are nothing, but that thou thyself also walkest orderly and keepest the law.
25 And as to the Gentiles who believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication."
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself with them, he entered into the temple to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Here the apostles even made a differency between the gentils and Jews. And of course they are one in Christ.. even a man and woman is one in christ... But a woman isn't a man,... and a man ins't a woman.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
We share in the heavenly promises. But when the Bible is speaking about Israel in the NT.. He speaks about the natural Israel. And when the Lord made promises to Israel. About that once He will save them all. We can't say. The Lord say Israel, but actually He means the church. Because the church is saved.
The apostle Paul try to explain all from the Old Testament. He believed the Law and Prophets. And His teaching is based at this.
And this isn't a dispensionalism teaching. Because that said.. the Church is the heavenly nation.. and the Jews the earthly nation.
The Bible doesn't teach.. And so all nation (gentils) shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
But I believe with all my hart that once He forgive Israel for their sinning. Like Zech 12:10-13:9 said.
The Dutch organisation Christian for Israel, is leading by orthodox Reform organisation, who don't believe in a rapture and the fulfil from the prophecy of Daniel .. But they are looking over the theologic walls.
I never said that there is a 2 road of saving. I agree even with you that we are one in Christ. That is not the issue. But when you read Act 21-24 you can read that Paul even offer. And that he taught the Mosianic law, but only for Jews.
21 And they are informed about thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, nor walk according to the customs.
22 What is therefore to be done? The multitude must surely come together, for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this which we say to thee: We have four men who have taken a vow upon themselves.
24 Take them and purify thyself with them, and bear their charges with them, that they may shave their heads; and all may know that those things of which they have been informed concerning thee are nothing, but that thou thyself also walkest orderly and keepest the law.
25 And as to the Gentiles who believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication."
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself with them, he entered into the temple to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Here the apostles even made a differency between the gentils and Jews. And of course they are one in Christ.. even a man and woman is one in christ... But a woman isn't a man,... and a man ins't a woman.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
We share in the heavenly promises. But when the Bible is speaking about Israel in the NT.. He speaks about the natural Israel. And when the Lord made promises to Israel. About that once He will save them all. We can't say. The Lord say Israel, but actually He means the church. Because the church is saved.
The apostle Paul try to explain all from the Old Testament. He believed the Law and Prophets. And His teaching is based at this.
And this isn't a dispensionalism teaching. Because that said.. the Church is the heavenly nation.. and the Jews the earthly nation.
The Bible doesn't teach.. And so all nation (gentils) shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
But I believe with all my hart that once He forgive Israel for their sinning. Like Zech 12:10-13:9 said.
The Dutch organisation Christian for Israel, is leading by orthodox Reform organisation, who don't believe in a rapture and the fulfil from the prophecy of Daniel .. But they are looking over the theologic walls.
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