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N
It would be blasphemy of the highest degree if you were to claim that it is Christ's "fault" that anyone goes to Hell, and has nothing to do with the choice(s) of the individual involved. God CAN BE and IS completely sovereign while man also has God-given free will. To suggest otherwise makes God a monster.
agree.
Free will is an allusion when it comes to spirituality because it is God that chooses us to follow him, it's nothing of ourselves thus it is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
The natural man does not seek God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
it is Him (God) that calleth and not him (man) that willeth.
Free will is an allusion when it comes to spirituality because it is God that chooses us to follow him, it's nothing of ourselves thus it is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
The natural man does not seek God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
it is Him (God) that calleth and not him (man) that willeth.
1 Cor 2:14 does not say " the natural man will not choose to serve a spiritual God". It says "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". The natural man cannot understand spiritual truths because holy spirit is needed to understand. But he can be curious about God, and want to know Him. Once he knows enough, by "hearing the Word of God", he can believe, and receive holy spirit.
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 Tim 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Are you going to be like Forest and say they do not mean what they plainly say?
1 Tim 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Are you going to be like Forest and say they do not mean what they plainly say?
N
Actualy, verses 1-5 there don't say much in terms of how salvation is individually appropriated by each of us, other than to say it's by grace (which I wholeheatedly affirm).
Man absolultely plays a part in his salvation, though. The Apostle Paul went so far as to say this to young Timothy as he began to lead his local church:
"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." 1 Timothy 4:16
Wow! What was that crazy Paul thinking with those "works-based" salvation words! We save OURSELVES, and OTHERS, by DOING something?? Clearly he did not take careful enough notes from Martin Luther and John Calvin.
Man absolultely plays a part in his salvation, though. The Apostle Paul went so far as to say this to young Timothy as he began to lead his local church:
"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." 1 Timothy 4:16
Wow! What was that crazy Paul thinking with those "works-based" salvation words! We save OURSELVES, and OTHERS, by DOING something?? Clearly he did not take careful enough notes from Martin Luther and John Calvin.
When I got saved, I chose to do it...it was my decision when I did it. I was young when I did, but I did it because I was 100% sure I wanted to ask Jesus to be in my life. Now when you're saved, God plays a huge part in your life...He does a lot in your life when you're saved. Though, we mess up and sometimes we might even avoid going God's way. But at the end of the day, God never gave up on us. He just patiently waits for us to come back and say "Ok, ok, I messed up...please forgive me!!" and repent.
See, the whole problem I have about God "electing" us is, if He Himself has "elected" us and we're secured for going to Heaven, it just seems to me we can do whatever we want. No accountability, no worrying about if we're saved or not...just do whatever because you're going where you're going in the end.
Also, the whole thing just seems one-sided. There's no relationship. And that is what is supposed to make Christianity different. We don't have a dead god that we just believe in. We have a God that's involved in our lives, and jealous for us, and loves us. And He WANTS to hear from us, and He WANTS to have a relationship with us. And THAT'S why I believe God freely gives out salvation. Because He WANTS us to turn back to Him. He does NOT take pleasure in the death of the wicked (unsaved).
Ezekiel 3:18-19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
Ezekiel 18:21-23
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 33:10-16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 “Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’ 12 And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’ 13 When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. 14 But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.
See, the whole problem I have about God "electing" us is, if He Himself has "elected" us and we're secured for going to Heaven, it just seems to me we can do whatever we want. No accountability, no worrying about if we're saved or not...just do whatever because you're going where you're going in the end.
Also, the whole thing just seems one-sided. There's no relationship. And that is what is supposed to make Christianity different. We don't have a dead god that we just believe in. We have a God that's involved in our lives, and jealous for us, and loves us. And He WANTS to hear from us, and He WANTS to have a relationship with us. And THAT'S why I believe God freely gives out salvation. Because He WANTS us to turn back to Him. He does NOT take pleasure in the death of the wicked (unsaved).
Ezekiel 3:18-19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
Ezekiel 18:21-23
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 33:10-16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 “Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’ 12 And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’ 13 When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. 14 But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.
J
John 6:44
English Standard Version (ESV)
44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.''
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[f] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[g] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
/discussion
English Standard Version (ESV)
44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.''
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[f] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[g] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
/discussion