Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other

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Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Well - first of all, I am not a preterist - I believe that 'historicist' is the word that would apply best to my eschatological beliefs. I believe that some-but-not-all of the prophecy in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse is past history - and, some of it is yet future. (A similar thing may be said concerning the OT prophetic books.) I believe that all of this prophecy occurs over a great span of time and not a short one. I do not believe that it all happens during a 7-year 'tribulation' period just before the Millennium.

We certainly agree that there is a "separation" between Law and Grace and also between Israel and the Church.

The only assumption I have made is that I believe that most 'pre-trib' folks learned it from childhood. I do believe there are exceptions - and, am pretty sure I allowed for it in what I have written.

You would/will certainly do well if you can study the scriptures without allowing modern-men-think to detract from what is actually written in scripture.
Does the historicist view see the Pope as the first beast?
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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That's good. Those are the two main dispensations (even though there are others). But Bible prophecy will make absolutely no sense until we distinguish between Israel and the Church.
One of the problems with the 'pre-trib' view is that it artificially creates "its own little dispensation" out of the last 7 years of the current 'dispensation' - cutting it off in order to form another separate 'dispensation' - so that it may be "assigned" to Israel.

This is not biblically valid - mostly because not everything the 'pre-trib' view tries to place into that 7 years is biblical.

Let me tell you what is in the Bible that is valid to "assign" to Israel - the Two Witnesses and Armageddon.

Everything else is "made up" and inserted into the 7 years to help "prop up" the 'pre-trib' rapture idea.

In truth, there is no separate 'dispensation' - the current 'dispensation' does/will not end until the Second Coming of Christ.

God's dealing with Israel is simply part of the current 'dispensation' - at the very end of it - as it transitions into the Millennium.
 

Fillan

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Oct 25, 2022
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But you don't mind Israel and the so-called "tribulation saints" having the living daylights beaten out of them while you party in heaven.
Hello! I think the purpose for those who go through the Tribulation is to bring them to God. Israel will turn to their Messiah in that dark day because they will have no-one else to turn to and all Israel will be saved. 'Tribulation saints' are saved in those dark days when they repent and turn to God. For the church, those who have already turned to God, what purpose would it serve? God Bless You :)
 

Fillan

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Oct 25, 2022
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In Revelation 13 below, those who refuse the MOB will be killed.
Yes. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

'We who are still alive'. IMHO it must be talking about a pre-trib rapture. Those who refuse the mark of the beast will be killed. God Bless :)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other


Actually conflict, strife, and division is often brought about by people whose primary mission on CC is to use anything they can get their hands on to accomplish the will of their Father, the Devil. Many differences can be discussed in a peaceful and loving way, yet some seem to want to distract from that.
 

GaryA

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Does the historicist view see the Pope as the first beast?
The 'Pope' in particular - no. The 'Roman Empire' / 'Holy Roman Empire' / 'Roman Catholic Church' - yes.

I believe the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is referring to the time frame of 538-1798 when the HRE/RCC "ruled the earth" and persecuted the saints.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Anyone know what is supposed to be the point of this video. At the end she says the Christians are still here. What does that mean?
2 Peter 3:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Hello! I think the purpose for those who go through the Tribulation is to bring them to God. Israel will turn to their Messiah in that dark day because they will have no-one else to turn to and all Israel will be saved. 'Tribulation saints' are saved in those dark days when they repent and turn to God. For the church, those who have already turned to God, what purpose would it serve? God Bless You :)
What you may not realize yet is that the 'Church' is the 'Tribulation Saints'.

Do you think that seeing the most amazing Christian martyrdom imaginable - millions/billions refusing to worship the beast - would make an impression upon Israel as the Two Witnesses arrive on the scene to show them that Jesus was indeed their Messiah and that Christianity is truly in Him?
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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But you don't mind Israel and the so-called "tribulation saints" having the living daylights beaten out of them while you party in heaven.
I shall be rejoicing that my merciful and gracious Lord has given them a second chance to escape eternal damnation in hellfire for the rest of eternity. That is the big picture.
 

GaryA

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What you may not realize yet is that the 'Church' is the 'Tribulation Saints'.
The 'Church' had 'tribulation saints' back in the Dark Ages ("souls under the altar") and will have 'tribulation saints' in the future ("that should be killed as they were").
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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We will have to rephrase and call them "7-Year-Trib Saints" then.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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Midwest

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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What you may not realize yet is that the 'Church' is the 'Tribulation Saints'.
Could you kindly show us where in Scripture THE ENTIRE CHURCH IS BEHEADED? Because that is what happens to the Tribulation saints. Of course since there is no such Scripture, it means that you would rather cling to your false ideas than abandon them for the truth. We need to note that people with false beliefs never give them up. They are more "precious" than the truth. Which is rather perverse, but that's the way it is.
 
May 7, 2023
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Well - first of all, I am not a preterist - I believe that 'historicist' is the word that would apply best to my eschatological beliefs. I believe that some-but-not-all of the prophecy in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse is past history - and, some of it is yet future. (A similar thing may be said concerning the OT prophetic books.) I believe that all of this prophecy occurs over a great span of time and not a short one. I do not believe that it all happens during a 7-year 'tribulation' period just before the Millennium.

We certainly agree that there is a "separation" between Law and Grace and also between Israel and the Church.

The only assumption I have made is that I believe that most 'pre-trib' folks learned it from childhood. I do believe there are exceptions - and, am pretty sure I allowed for it in what I have written.

You would/will certainly do well if you can study the scriptures without allowing modern-men-think to detract from what is actually written in scripture.
Thank you for taking the time to post to me. I will give what you said some thought. I’m bowing out of the forums - life has been taking me elsewhere helping my sick neighbor and now my own mom has Covid - it’s not a bad case but bad enough to be pretty concerned. May God bless and keep you and give you that wonderful peace. -Andi
 

Komentaja

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Jul 29, 2022
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It's produced by atheists, according to the end. I don't think the rapture will happen that way. I believe Jesus will come once, give judgment to all resurrected people (Matthew 25), create the new universe (Revelation 21:1), usher believers into that cosmos in our resurrection bodies, and banish unbelievers with Satan and the demons to hell.
What about the millennium in Rev20?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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Hello! I think the purpose for those who go through the Tribulation is to bring them to God. Israel will turn to their Messiah in that dark day because they will have no-one else to turn to and all Israel will be saved. 'Tribulation saints' are saved in those dark days when they repent and turn to God. For the church, those who have already turned to God, what purpose would it serve? God Bless You :)

Hi


Perhaps the same purpose the millions of martyrs (witnesses) that have gone before us have served.

"manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God" 2 Thess 1:5

The Church and The Holy Spirit are saying "Come Lord Jesus!"
She is praying during the time of tribulation; Rev 8: 3-4, Her prayers urge The Lord to vengeance.
It's impossible to shoehorn a secret pre-second coming gathering into the latter days without contradicting Paul.



2 Thess 1 (NKJV)

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Hi


Perhaps the same purpose the millions of martyrs (witnesses) that have gone before us have served.

"manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God" 2 Thess 1:5

The Church and The Holy Spirit are saying "Come Lord Jesus!"
She is praying during the time of tribulation; Rev 8: 3-4, Her prayers urge The Lord to vengeance.
It's impossible to shoehorn a secret pre-second coming gathering into the latter days without contradicting Paul.



2 Thess 1 (NKJV)

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
“It's impossible to shoehorn a secret pre-second coming gathering into the latter days without contradicting Paul.”

amen or anyone else

“confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭14:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’re in this situation now

people that have lived and believed and died along the way are here

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

( but those alive in tbe world now and those born now and after are in this boat in the earth )


Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s why Peter is explaining about the devil goin about persecuting them

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.””

as believers in Jesus die they are entering into the heavenly kingdom after they go through the world and it’s tribulation and then eventually they died being believers of the gospel

“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in Gods creation heaven is celebrating the victory Jesus won at Calvary and believers are with him having overcome the world through faith they went through the tribulation of a world where Satan is at war with mankind but they kept faith and entered into salvation as promised

this os current but also what’s happening in earth is current we have an enemy and this world holds much tribulation and suffering for good and decent people often times the bi le teaches us that if we’re going through the worst trouble ever and it’s unfair , keep the faith because of Jesus

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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If the beast is the antichrist, who then is the second beast with the two horns.

Because the second beast is the one who gets everyone to worship the image of the first beast.

The second beast imposes the mark on humanity.

The first beast also represents kings or even kingdoms.

I am assuming the harlot is riding the first beast?

The first beast is the man of sin, the lawless one, claims to be God, sits in the temple?
The beast who looks like a lamb but who speaks like a dragon is the false prophet. He is Jewish.

This is my understanding.

He may well be a future leader of Israel [soon to be] imho he it is who causes all the Jews to return. He is who makes the pact with the Beast.

When the Beast reneges the false prophet [in my understanding] will lead the revolt against him in Jerusalem in defence of the temple and will be killed in so doing.
 

Komentaja

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Jul 29, 2022
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In lieu of the 'detailed' post (at least for now), let me offer this more general response.

From Seventy Weeks :

The idea that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel is not biblical.

The idea that the 70th week of Daniel represents a 7-year tribulation period is not biblical.

These two ideas have done more to hinder the proper understanding of End Times prophecy than anything else.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. All 70 weeks "came and went" in a single unbroken span of 490 years.

The entire 70 weeks of Daniel are 100% past history, with regard to the time span of the 70 weeks, or 490 years.

The end of the 69th week is the start of the 70th week. It is no different than any other two consecutive weeks.

The end of the 490 years marked the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and the start of the 'Times of the Gentiles'.

The last 490 years of the 'Times of the Jews' is exactly and precisely what the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy is about!

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A shamefully erroneous and wickedly dangerous interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 has been propagated for many generations.

It has attained to such extensive acceptance among Christians so as to become something that is forbidden to be questioned.

For a Christian in the modern day, it is increasingly important to have a proper biblical understanding of End Times prophecy.

I sincerely hope and pray that this discussion will provoke those who were taught that particular interpretation to question it.
How long are we going to be in the times of the gentiles?
 

Fillan

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Oct 25, 2022
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Hi


Perhaps the same purpose the millions of martyrs (witnesses) that have gone before us have served.
Hello! Thank you for your reply. Although there will be some persecution of believers in the Great Tribulation the distinction between it and what you're describing is the wrath of God. During the Tribulation the wrath of God will fall on an unbelieving, rebellious world, people will be punished for their unbelief.

Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Everyone on earth tries to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. Why would believers try to hide from the wrath of the Lamb?

They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thessalonians 1:10)
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

Everyone on earth suffers the wrath of God, but believers will not suffer the wrath of God.

God Bless :)