Heresy
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Matt
In the light of what you have posted how do you explain the following verses. Do they apply to the church today and if they do how do we apply them to our life, as members of Christ's church and body (especially Heb 3:17)?
Heb 13:7-9
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Heb 13:17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Heb 13:24
24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
1Thes 5:12,13
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1Tim 5:17
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
In the light of what you have posted how do you explain the following verses. Do they apply to the church today and if they do how do we apply them to our life, as members of Christ's church and body (especially Heb 3:17)?
Heb 13:7-9
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Heb 13:17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Heb 13:24
24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
1Thes 5:12,13
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1Tim 5:17
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
You make an excellent point but there are other applications for that verse. Remember that Jesus sent his disciples out by twos (Mk 6:7) and said that he would go with them unto the ends of the earth (Mt 28:20). The context of (Mt 18) is also not applicable every time a brother trespasses against you. Just imagine if we, as members of God's body and church, applied this instruction every time a brother sinned or trespassed another brother. If we are sinned against we should never be offended and how we respond will reveal what is in our hearts. We are told in (Eph 4:32) to forgive one another even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you. We should forgive our brother instantly less we sin in our mental attitude and hold a grudge against the brother (James 5:9, 1Pt 4:9). Many times we can go to that brother alone and tell him of his faults, other times we keep still and let the Holy Spirit bring conviction to his heart and he will come to you. Jesus was dealing with the Jews and their hard hearts against their brother who trespassed against them being accustomed to think according to the law and not grace. That is why Peter asked the question, 'How oft shall we forgive', in verse 21,22. The illustration that Jesus gave starting in verse 23 revealed the heart of the issue being addressed and the disciples had a difficult time with it.
I know a believer that had sinned against an entire local church and came back 20 years later to ask for forgiveness and was forgiven instantly. During that 20 years the love of that local church covered his multitude of sins and never repeated the matter. No gossiping, no slander and no maligning. Check out the father's response to his prodigal son in (Lk 15) who came back and was prepared to confess his sin. Then check out the spirit of the older brother and his response to how his younger brother was received and treated upon his return. When you examine these responses you will see whose heart was established in mercy and grace and whose heart was not. When the father saw his younger son coming from a great way off (a long way off) he ran out in compassion, as fast as his feet could take him, knocking him to the ground and and fell on his neck and kissed him over and over and over again. The word picture here is mercy rejoicing against judgment. Later they had a celebration of joy for his younger son and restored all that belonged to him, the robe, the ring, the shoes and the fatted calf.
I know a believer that had sinned against an entire local church and came back 20 years later to ask for forgiveness and was forgiven instantly. During that 20 years the love of that local church covered his multitude of sins and never repeated the matter. No gossiping, no slander and no maligning. Check out the father's response to his prodigal son in (Lk 15) who came back and was prepared to confess his sin. Then check out the spirit of the older brother and his response to how his younger brother was received and treated upon his return. When you examine these responses you will see whose heart was established in mercy and grace and whose heart was not. When the father saw his younger son coming from a great way off (a long way off) he ran out in compassion, as fast as his feet could take him, knocking him to the ground and and fell on his neck and kissed him over and over and over again. The word picture here is mercy rejoicing against judgment. Later they had a celebration of joy for his younger son and restored all that belonged to him, the robe, the ring, the shoes and the fatted calf.
The law was given that every mouth might be stopped ... (Rom 3:19). The law is so good because it keeps our tongue in check and if we open our mouth without being taught, we become a transgressor. This is why it is so important to study to be quiet (1Thes 4:11) and to cease from the labour of the tongue and become a learner (or disciple), as one who is taught.
Is 50:4
4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
James 1:19-26
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Prov 22:11,12
11 He who loves purity and the pure in heart and who is gracious in speech, because of the grace of his lips, will have the king for his friend.
12 The eyes of the Lord keep guard over knowledge and him who has it, but He overthrows the words of the treacherous.
The words of the treacherous are those that have no control and just have to say something because they do not know how to keep still. Job's three friends were an example of those who did not keep their words few either. None of them gave of God's counsel and their words were actually deceitful (Job 6:15). Treacherous words, no matter how sincere or bold they may be, are deceitful words that the Lord will overthrow as he did with Job's friends.
Eccl 5:1,2
1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
Some of us are so quick to utter things and become rash with our mouth because we are troubled about something or someone. We don't listen and we don't bridle our tongue and we deceive our very own heart. Then, because of a moral conscience we try to make up for it by saying something good, but even that does not edify or minister grace to the hearer. We never learn the art of keeping our words few and we go on and on, seeming to be religious but it's all vain and empty with no wisdom, no power and no life. If we want to fulfill the royal law of love toward our neighbor and our brother, we need to have the tongue of the learned and keep our words few and full of grace allowing God to show us how to speak a word in season to them who are weary.
Is 50:4
4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
James 1:19-26
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Prov 22:11,12
11 He who loves purity and the pure in heart and who is gracious in speech, because of the grace of his lips, will have the king for his friend.
12 The eyes of the Lord keep guard over knowledge and him who has it, but He overthrows the words of the treacherous.
The words of the treacherous are those that have no control and just have to say something because they do not know how to keep still. Job's three friends were an example of those who did not keep their words few either. None of them gave of God's counsel and their words were actually deceitful (Job 6:15). Treacherous words, no matter how sincere or bold they may be, are deceitful words that the Lord will overthrow as he did with Job's friends.
Eccl 5:1,2
1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
Some of us are so quick to utter things and become rash with our mouth because we are troubled about something or someone. We don't listen and we don't bridle our tongue and we deceive our very own heart. Then, because of a moral conscience we try to make up for it by saying something good, but even that does not edify or minister grace to the hearer. We never learn the art of keeping our words few and we go on and on, seeming to be religious but it's all vain and empty with no wisdom, no power and no life. If we want to fulfill the royal law of love toward our neighbor and our brother, we need to have the tongue of the learned and keep our words few and full of grace allowing God to show us how to speak a word in season to them who are weary.
Three times I have read this post, and I still do not know what you are saying. However, you have misused scripture, several times in this post. Romans 3:19-20 should be quoted in their entirety, because these two verses are actually one sentence which makes a complete thought, being a paragraph all by itself. So: Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Now this has nothing to do with making believers close their mouths, because believers who are in Jesus Christ are not under the Law. Rather, it is saying that no man can stand before God and boast about the Law, because the Law has caused all to be judged as sinners. For Paul goes on to write: 21) But now apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. Now that is a mouthful, but basically Paul is saying that the righteousness which we have, witness in the Law and by the Prophets, is the righteousness of God, given to us by faith through grace, that is, God drawing near to us to make us His children. (Romans chapter 8)
Job's friends, the so called friends, were trying to convict Job of evil doing, (this was most likely before the Law was given,) and that this was why the calamities had befallen Job, he had sinned against God. Job argued against them, saying that he had not done any sin. We know who was right in this argument.
Anyway, I still wonder what you are saying here.
In Christ Jesus,
vic
Job's friends, the so called friends, were trying to convict Job of evil doing, (this was most likely before the Law was given,) and that this was why the calamities had befallen Job, he had sinned against God. Job argued against them, saying that he had not done any sin. We know who was right in this argument.
Anyway, I still wonder what you are saying here.
In Christ Jesus,
vic
S
"Heresy can be rooted in a false doctrine or a rejection of sound doctrine." Friends, Many people today are semi-Sabellian heretics, and they do not even know that they are. For many years, I was a semi-Sabellian. I also believed in a pre-tribulation rapture, but then I read the Scriptures and was introduced to Matthew 24 from people who had a post-tribulational perspective. A semi-Sabellian believes in the Holy Spirit "who proceeds from the Father AND THE SON". It's the "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE) that gets people into a semi-Sabellian HERESY that is AGAINST JOHN 15:26. Which merely says "which proceedeth from the Father" (KJV). Monopatrism, "from the Father alone", is the doctrine of the NT. It is the holy doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church, which the non-Orthodox West (Protestants and Catholics united together as one faith) rejects in favor of saying "And the Son". In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
IT'S NOT QUITE THAT SIMPLE.
i do not understand this division of the GodHead.
what do you do about the following passages?
Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)
2 Cor 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)
Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (KJV)
1 Corinthians 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Gal 4:6
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (KJV)
Eph 6:17-18
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Phil 1:19
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, (KJV)
1 Pet 1:11-12
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
I Jn 2:20
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (KJV)
I Jn 4:2
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (KJV)
I Jn 5:6-8
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Rev 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (KJV)
Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (KJV)
Rev 2:29
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (KJV)
Rev 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (KJV)
i do not understand this division of the GodHead.
what do you do about the following passages?
Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)
2 Cor 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)
Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (KJV)
1 Corinthians 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Gal 4:6
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (KJV)
Eph 6:17-18
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Phil 1:19
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, (KJV)
1 Pet 1:11-12
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
I Jn 2:20
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (KJV)
I Jn 4:2
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (KJV)
I Jn 5:6-8
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Rev 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (KJV)
Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (KJV)
Rev 2:29
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (KJV)
Rev 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (KJV)
1 Thesslonians 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
Mark 13:11
And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 10:19-20
When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
2 Corinthians 13:3
since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.
Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
~ i don't understand why we feel this need to intrude into The Mystery of The GodHead so much. here is God (including the Holy Spirit) described in a single verse by Isaiah:
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
Mark 13:11
And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 10:19-20
When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
2 Corinthians 13:3
since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.
Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
~ i don't understand why we feel this need to intrude into The Mystery of The GodHead so much. here is God (including the Holy Spirit) described in a single verse by Isaiah:
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Is God really worried if someone believes in a pre tribulation rapture or not? I have never met a Christian who thinks it is that big a deal. Will you be called a heretic by God for believing in a pre trib rapture(OR NOT)?
Will someone be considered a heretic by God if they simply see Christ as trhe only begotten son of the Father who was with Him from the begining?.
Sorry if I upset some, but this is head theolgy/Christianity overtaking the heart of the Gospel
But there are things that REALLY MATTER to God concerning an individual.
Are they yielding more and more of their life to him?
Are they taking up their cross and following his Son?
Do they love God above all else?
Things like these matter greatly to God, and should us. I somehow don't think compared to these things God is that bothered about someones views on a pre trib?
How is that belief(or not) going to bring you to the place God wants you at? It won't, but worrying about a pre trib might deflect you from time spent getting to where God wants you to be
Will someone be considered a heretic by God if they simply see Christ as trhe only begotten son of the Father who was with Him from the begining?.
Sorry if I upset some, but this is head theolgy/Christianity overtaking the heart of the Gospel
But there are things that REALLY MATTER to God concerning an individual.
Are they yielding more and more of their life to him?
Are they taking up their cross and following his Son?
Do they love God above all else?
Things like these matter greatly to God, and should us. I somehow don't think compared to these things God is that bothered about someones views on a pre trib?
How is that belief(or not) going to bring you to the place God wants you at? It won't, but worrying about a pre trib might deflect you from time spent getting to where God wants you to be
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