Is baptism neccasary for salvation??

[demian]

If you don't have baptism, (the baptism itself doesn't save you, the water itself is just plain water), you are missing the method or mode of salvation (sin forgiveness, conscience cleansing).
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "(A)Repent, and each of you be (B)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins
and (C - conditional statement) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[demian]

And if the ring has some magical power that God forces on it, but we are unaware, and now we take off the ring, what will happen to us if the power associated or embued through it (not only because of it, notice through it; it is a method of salvation) is not with us because we have no ring? God himself has the ring, but will he be jealous or will he possibly not receive us if we have no ring? I want you to go to heaven. I don't want you to join some weird church, with a weird hierarchy, traditions, too much wealth or anything like that. All I want you to think about is Jesus and what he did, and what the first church that he started did. Don't think about what your church does today. Think about what his church did while he was alive. Think about the commandments and teachings he gave them. Don't think about what your church teaches you, think about what Jesus teaches. I do not mean to misalign or slander any church, but a church cannot save you, only Jesus who is the head of the church can, only God decides, not christians.

 

[livingbygrace]

If you don't have baptism, (the baptism itself doesn't save you, the water itself is just plain water), you are missing the method or mode of salvation (sin forgiveness, conscience cleansing).
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "(A)Repent, and each of you be (B)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins
and (C - conditional statement) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

But Zaccheaus stood up and said to the Lord
Loook Lord here and now I give half my possessions to the poor and if I have cheated anybody out of anything I will pay back four times as much
Jesus said to him
Today salvation has come to this house

Luke 19:8&9

Zaccheaus had not been baptised but according to Christ he had received salvation

While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had beem poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God
Then Peter said
Can anyone keep these people from being baptised with water?
Acts 10:44-47

If water baptism is required for salvation then unsaved people can be filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But Zaccheaus stood up and said to the Lord
Loook Lord here and now I give half my possessions to the poor and if I have cheated anybody out of anything I will pay back four times as much
Jesus said to him
Today salvation has come to this house

Luke 19:8&9

Zaccheaus had not been baptised but according to Christ he had received salvation

While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had beem poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God
Then Peter said
Can anyone keep these people from being baptised with water?
Acts 10:44-47

If water baptism is required for salvation then unsaved people can be filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues

Yes!, One has to wonder how the HS can enter a person who is still stained with sin, and whose sin has not been cleaned (titus 3:5) and who had not yet been born again (made alive ) john 3.

Its almost as bad as a calvanist saying one can be born again who has not yet been justified (cleansed)

 

[demian]

Why did Peter mention ,"Can anyone keep these people from being baptised with water?"
Secondly what is the purpose of miracles?

 

[stone]

iI have to agree with Stone, That is the best anology I have heard. excellent

GOD BLESS YOU PHIL36

 

[stone]

And if the ring has some magical power that God forces on it, but we are unaware, and now we take off the ring, what will happen to us if the power associated or embued through it (not only because of it, notice through it; it is a method of salvation) is not with us because we have no ring? God himself has the ring, but will he be jealous or will he possibly not receive us if we have no ring? I want you to go to heaven. I don't want you to join some weird church, with a weird hierarchy, traditions, too much wealth or anything like that. All I want you to think about is Jesus and what he did, and what the first church that he started did. Don't think about what your church does today. Think about what his church did while he was alive. Think about the commandments and teachings he gave them. Don't think about what your church teaches you, think about what Jesus teaches. I do not mean to misalign or slander any church, but a church cannot save you, only Jesus who is the head of the church can, only God decides, not christians.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
If you check the origonal language in Greek the word "no" or "unless" is the word "μη" (pronounced -mey-) It is not the basic no word in Greek, it is a stronger word signifying pretty much "unless". It does not mean "uncapable" but it does mean "unless". There is something called an interlinear Bible. If you can't read Koine Greek then an interlinear Greek New Testament will help. It gives the dictionary word for each Greek word next to it.

I support you guys and trust all of you who have honest hearts. My motive is not to take you to some church, but my motive is this: I want to do what the 1st Century Church that Jesus established did. It is the only roadmap for our salvation. We can't minutely change anyhting Jesus said or did. We have to do what they did. We have proof that they had practised baptism by immersion. We also have proof that they did that before they considered themselves saved. I can point you to evidences if you will. It may take me some time, I don't go on the internet much. But for starters here is a revision of Greek manuscripts formally published under a book name Westcott-Hort.
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:5 (1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament)

5απεκριθη [ο] ιησους αμην αμην λεγω σοι εαν μη τις γεννηθη εξ υδατος και πνευματος ου δυναται εισελθειν εις την βασιλειαν του θεου

The problem is not the word "unless" the problem is those who translate the word "water" to mean baptism. Why would nicodemus assume Jesus meant baptism here? He had alread asked Jesus how he could re-enter his mothers womb (water) and be reborn. Jesus was stating a fact. Being born of water is not enough. one must be born of water (physical birth) and spirit (spiritual birth)

That which is born of flesh (physical or water birth) is only flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit (born again)

Not to mention. When Jesus finally told Nicodemus how this is done. He said "whoever believes will have everlasting life" Jesus did not say whoever believed and is baptized. The fact Jesus left the word "baptized" our of this very important passage should make people look, and not try to add baptism where it is not only not inferred, but not even mentioned.

Not to mention. The act of Baptism in the church had not even been instituted yet. There is no reason to believe Nicodemus would have thought Baptism here!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you don't have baptism, (the baptism itself doesn't save you, the water itself is just plain water), you are missing the method or mode of salvation (sin forgiveness, conscience cleansing).
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "(A)Repent, and each of you be (B)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins
and (C - conditional statement) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You used greek for john 3. you should use it here.

"The three clauses are --
(1) 'Repent ye:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'Repent' -- verb, second person plural number, aorist imperative active voice.

(2) 'be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins:'

“every one of you” – third person, singular number.

'be baptized' -- verb, third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice.

“unto the remission of your sins” – modifying phrase.

(3) 'ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'shall receive' -- verb, second person plural number, future, indicative voice.

'the gift of the Holy Spirit' -- direct object of verb.

You see, 2nd person words. you, repent, shall receive gift of the holy spirit. all of these are plural. means the command is given to ALL he was talking to.

3rd person. Remission of sin, be baptized. All of you. All of these are singular. meaning Peter is no longer speaking to everyone, but certain individuals. Which would be those who repented, and because of repentance they received the gift of the HS

As for the word eis only meaning in order to receive. this is noo true even in english (unto or for)

1. I phoned the Doctor for (in order to) some medicine.

2. I phoned the Doctor for (in behalf of) my child.

3. I phoned the Doctor for (on account of) my sickness.

4. I phoned the Doctor for (with respect to) the bill he sent.

so as we can see. for can easily be used to mean on account of, or because of. So Peter could easily have said be baptized on account of the fact you received remission of sin.

 

[demian]

Miracles served the purpose of revealing the truth. "But the Helper [one who stands by the side of], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" (John 14:26).
The word helper there is parakletos παρακλητος para as in parallel(alongside) kletos from the word kalleo meaning I call.
The Holy Spirit was with them not in them. (Dative not Genitive)

Secondly salvation is not subjective as you so bluntly put it, but a feminine declined noun in the first person singular
σωτηρια τω οικω

notice τω dative not genitive. Salvation had literally " moved to the house " not entered it, not saved his houshold, but go check the Greek concordances and interlinear Bibles if you don't believe me. Check any website that can aid in Greek, p.s Jesus never spoke English nor did his disciples. English only came a few hundred years later. They wrote in Greek , Koine Greek

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why did Peter mention ,"Can anyone keep these people from being baptised with water?"
Secondly what is the purpose of miracles?

Because God commanded we all be baptized in water. Why would not Peter, and all of us not obay this command.

God commanded we take communion often in remembrance of him, He also commanded we assemble ourselves together. he also commanded we love one another as he loved the church. Yet non of these "commands" are essential for salvation. Why would we make water baptism essential? Making the gospel a gospel of works, not grace.

 

[demian]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Someone used the example of a ring, so I replied to them that is what I meant,
love

Demian

 

[livingbygrace]

Why did Peter mention ,"Can anyone keep these people from being baptised with water?"
Of course someone who has received salvation should be baptised



Secondly what is the purpose of miracles?

In the NT signs, wonders and miracles confirmed the truth of the message preached

John 10:38

Acts 14:3

Heb 2:3&4

Rom 15:18&19

 

[stone]

Miracles served the purpose of revealing the truth. "But the Helper [one who stands by the side of], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" (John 14:26).
The word helper there is parakletos παρακλητος para as in parallel(alongside) kletos from the word kalleo meaning I call.
The Holy Spirit was with them not in them. (Dative not Genitive)

Secondly salvation is not subjective as you so bluntly put it, but a feminine declined noun in the first person singular
σωτηρια τω οικω

notice τω dative not genitive. Salvation had literally " moved to the house " not entered it, not saved his houshold, but go check the Greek concordances and interlinear Bibles if you don't believe me. Check any website that can aid in Greek, p.s Jesus never spoke English nor did his disciples. English only came a few hundred years later. They wrote in Greek , Koine Greek

YOU HAVE LOST IT BRO

 

[demian]

You used greek for john 3. you should use it here.

"The three clauses are --
(1) 'Repent ye:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'Repent' -- verb, second person plural number, aorist imperative active voice.

(2) 'be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins:'

“every one of you” – third person, singular number.

'be baptized' -- verb, third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice.

“unto the remission of your sins” – modifying phrase.

(3) 'ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'shall receive' -- verb, second person plural number, future, indicative voice.

'the gift of the Holy Spirit' -- direct object of verb.

You see, 2nd person words. you, repent, shall receive gift of the holy spirit. all of these are plural. means the command is given to ALL he was talking to.

3rd person. Remission of sin, be baptized. All of you. All of these are singular. meaning Peter is no longer speaking to everyone, but certain individuals. Which would be those who repented, and because of repentance they received the gift of the HS

As for the word eis only meaning in order to receive. this is noo true even in english (unto or for)

1. I phoned the Doctor for (in order to) some medicine.

2. I phoned the Doctor for (in behalf of) my child.

3. I phoned the Doctor for (on account of) my sickness.

4. I phoned the Doctor for (with respect to) the bill he sent.

so as we can see. for can easily be used to mean on account of, or because of. So Peter could easily have said be baptized on account of the fact you received remission of sin.

The word "eis" means into not for (check Strong's and Thayers). for is also dative just like "eis" into
Acts 2:38
Πέτρος δὲ ἔφη πρὸς αὐτούς Μετανοήσατε καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λήψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος
The ῶν there is dative but not a relational dative, its a locatival dative, not a relational dative. its antecedent is "eis aphesin" which is into forgiveness (locative, not relational), not for forgiveness. Check Strong's Complete Exhaustive Concordance. That book helps me alot, if you don't have the book, you can check on some Bible websites or on e-sword.
I can give you some useful links for learning Koine if you wish?

Regards Demian

Phil 4:13


1. I phoned the Doctor into (in order to - doesn't make sense) some medicine.

2. I phoned the Doctor into (in behalf of - still doesn't make sense) my child.

3. I phoned the Doctor into (on account of - hasn't changed, still doesn't make sense) my sickness.

4. I phoned the Doctor into (with respect to -doesn't make sense ) the bill he sent.

 

[demian]

YOU HAVE LOST IT BRO

Thanks man, appreciate the comfort (bad joke; smile).
South African humour is a bit weird, forgive the synecdoche.
Cool user name by the way. thanks for the replies I am encouraged by the replies. They are actually valid suggestions. I used to ask the same stuff from many teachers. As a matter of fact almost every denom believes baptism is not essential for salvation. There are only a handful that believe it is. And only one of those that I know of actually tries to do it on the basis of the Bible and not Church ordinance.

I wander how the weather is doing on your side Stone, on my side we are supposed to be having winter, but it feels like summer? I heard Sweden and Denmark are beautiful this time of year

Love and Regards

Demian

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The word "eis" means into not for (check Strong's and Thayers). for is also dative just like "eis" into
Acts 2:38
Πέτρος δὲ ἔφη πρὸς αὐτούς Μετανοήσατε καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λήψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος
The ῶν there is dative but not a relational dative, its a locatival dative, not a relational dative. its antecedent is "eis aphesin" which is into forgiveness (locative, not relational), not for forgiveness. Check Strong's Complete Exhaustive Concordance. That book helps me alot, if you don't have the book, you can check on some Bible websites or on e-sword.
I can give you some useful links for learning Koine if you wish?

Regards Demian

Phil 4:13


1. I phoned the Doctor into (in order to - doesn't make sense) some medicine.

2. I phoned the Doctor into (in behalf of - still doesn't make sense) my child.

3. I phoned the Doctor into (on account of - hasn't changed, still doesn't make sense) my sickness.

4. I phoned the Doctor into (with respect to -doesn't make sense ) the bill he sent.

εἰς, a Prep. governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among.

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (183). New York: Harper & Brothers.

Example of eis being used to denote "in reference to, or because of" in scripture.

Ephesians 5:32 (NKJV)
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning (eis) Christ and the church.


Paul did not speak to make Christ and the church real. he spoke on account of, or because of or in reference to the church which was already established.

Like Peter was not saying remission of sin was because of baptism. But commanded people to be baptized in reference to, on account of the fact, or because of the "remission of sin" they had already received.

 

[stone]

Thanks man, appreciate the comfort (bad joke; smile).
South African humour is a bit weird, forgive the synecdoche.
Cool user name by the way. thanks for the replies I am encouraged by the replies. They are actually valid suggestions. I used to ask the same stuff from many teachers. As a matter of fact almost every denom believes baptism is not essential for salvation. There are only a handful that believe it is. And only one of those that I know of actually tries to do it on the basis of the Bible and not Church ordinance.

I wander how the weather is doing on your side Stone, on my side we are supposed to be having winter, but it feels like summer? I heard Sweden and Denmark are beautiful this time of year

Love and Regards

Demian

YOU SEEM LIKE A COOL GUY BRO. I LOVE YOU SIR. THE WEATHER IS SOO NICE FOR THE LAST 4 DAYS. IVE BEEN HAVING THE VICTORY OVER THESE WOMEN WALKING UP AND DOWN ALMOST NAKED , BLACK , WHITE ,YELLOW , E.T.C. SATAN IS REALLY DOING OVER TIME WORK WITH THIS UN GODLY NATION THAT HAS REJECTED HIM. I LOVE WALKING IN THE SPIRIT. HOW IS YOUR FAMILY?

 

[stone]

ENGLAND HAS BECOME AN UTTER DISGRACE FROM WERE IT USE TO HAVE AND HOLD HIGH STANDARDS OF THE GOSPEL.