Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

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romans1212

Guest
#21
#21
I've only read a few of the replies, so sorry if i'm repeating someone else. This is ironic because we learned about this in my sunday school class today. God also tells us that we must hate our wifes, mother/father...etc. Now he doesn't mean that we should HATE them...he was saying that we should put Him before those people. So, it could be said that he didn't hate esau....he was just putting Jacob before him? Someone correct me if you feel I am wayy off.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#22
Jul 28, 2009
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#22
romans1212 said:
I've only read a few of the replies, so sorry if i'm repeating someone else. This is ironic because we learned about this in my sunday school class today. God also tells us that we must hate our wifes, mother/father...etc. Now he doesn't mean that we should HATE them...he was saying that we should put Him before those people. So, it could be said that he didn't hate esau....he was just putting Jacob before him? Someone correct me if you feel I am wayy off.
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That was the point that I made in post #3 of this thread. God loves all people. If not, He would not have provided a means for us to be reconciled to Him because of sin. Jesus died for all people, even Esau.

Genesis 22: 18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Notice that God promised Abraham that his seed (Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:16), would bless all nations.

Notice the word above "all". It means all. That includes Edom.

Jesus may have died for many who hate Him, but He certainly didn't die for anyone because He reciprocated that hatred.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#24
Dec 22, 2009
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#24
Jesus definitely said "hate." If your father or mother or brother or wife or child in any way keeps you from following Jesus, then it is "hate."

And that God loves all people is the fairy tale about Him, and has no relationship with the truth. God is holy, and He will have a holy people.

There are people who hate God, for no reason other than that He is God. When He starts to show Himself to the world in the last days, they will pray to the rocks to cover them and hide them from Him. Their punishment is just.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#25
Jul 28, 2009
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#25
VW said:
Jesus definitely said "hate." If your father or mother or brother or wife or child in any way keeps you from following Jesus, then it is "hate."

And that God loves all people is the fairy tale about Him, and has no relationship with the truth. God is holy, and He will have a holy people.

There are people who hate God, for no reason other than that He is God. When He starts to show Himself to the world in the last days, they will pray to the rocks to cover them and hide them from Him. Their punishment is just.
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Jesus speaking:

Matthew 5: 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same ? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same ? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is

Some fairytale!

Jesus makes it clear. We are to love our enemies, just as our Father in Heaven does!

Would Jesus demand from us a higher standard than God has for Himself?

Certainly in the last days of time people will be sent to Hell. But it will not be because God hates them. It is because He is a just God, and demands justice. He loves everyone enough to have provided His Son as a sacrifice for the world. (John 3:16). God does not want anyone to go to Hell.

You have claimed in the past to have some special relationship with the Holy Spirit that you receive revelation from. And yet, you don't know the scriptures?

And what new revelation have you received about salvation that is not contained in the new testament? That will be a true test of your revelation.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#26
Dec 22, 2009
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#26
superdave5221 said:
Jesus speaking:

Matthew 5: 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same ? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same ? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is

Some fairytale!

Jesus makes it clear. We are to love our enemies, just as our Father in Heaven does!

Would Jesus demand from us a higher standard than God has for Himself?

Certainly in the last days of time people will be sent to Hell. But it will not be because God hates them. It is because He is a just God, and demands justice. He loves everyone enough to have provided His Son as a sacrifice for the world. (John 3:16). God does not want anyone to go to Hell.

You have claimed in the past to have some special relationship with the Holy Spirit that you receive revelation from. And yet, you don't know the scriptures?

And what new revelation have you received about salvation that is not contained in the new testament? That will be a true test of your revelation.
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Not denying what you say about loving your enemies, have you seen yourself in the light of God's holiness? If you have, then you know just how much God hates sin.

I never claimed to have anything.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#27
Dec 22, 2009
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#27
I will tell you the truth, if one does not turn to God, His anger burns against them. Not love, but anger. Ask all of the children of Israel who hardened their hearts against Him, and every one of them died in the wilderness.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#28
Jul 28, 2009
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#28
VW said:
Not denying what you say about loving your enemies, have you seen yourself in the light of God's holiness? If you have, then you know just how much God hates sin.

I never claimed to have anything.
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You claimed in an earlier post to me that you had the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit.

That is the problem with people. They cannot separate sin from the sinner. Of course God hates sin. When your son disobeys you, and gets a DWI while driving your car, it may cause you to be angry. And certainly, you hate what he did. But you don't hate your son!

God abhors sin!! And He demands justice for the transgression. Thank God for His plan of redemption! But He doesn't hate the sinner.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#29
Dec 22, 2009
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#29
superdave5221 said:
You claimed in an earlier post to me that you had the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit.

That is the problem with people. They cannot separate sin from the sinner. Of course God hates sin. When your son disobeys you, and gets a DWI while driving your car, it may cause you to be angry. And certainly, you hate what he did. But you don't hate your son!

God abhors sin!! And He demands justice for the transgression. Thank God for His plan of redemption! But He doesn't hate the sinner.
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And the gift of prophecy is a special relationship with the Holy Spirit? That is news to me. We are not talking us hating, because we cannot hate without sin. But God, on the other hand is just, and if you don't think that He hates those who reject His love as seen in Jesus, then try it and find out.

I am distressed that you have such animosity towards me. If I offend you, then maybe you should look somewhere other than me.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#30
Jul 28, 2009
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#30
VW said:
And the gift of prophecy is a special relationship with the Holy Spirit? That is news to me. We are not talking us hating, because we cannot hate without sin. But God, on the other hand is just, and if you don't think that He hates those who reject His love as seen in Jesus, then try it and find out.

I am distressed that you have such animosity towards me. If I offend you, then maybe you should look somewhere other than me.
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I have no animosity towards you. Once again, you cannot separate the sin from the sinner. I find many of your views to be unbiblical, and this is what I object to. In the past you attacked the bible in a thread as unreliable, preferring instead to rely on "revelations" from the Holy Spirit. This is what I was referring to. Has your opinion changed on this subject? All modern day revelation concerning redemption is revealed in the New Testament.

I am sorry if I distress you. But your "fairytale" post above demanded a response. I have no problem with you attacking my position on an issue, but please use scripture, reasoning, or logic, to back it up, rather than opinions. If I am wrong, then I can learn from it. But I learn nothing from your opinions.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#31
Dec 22, 2009
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#31
I have never said in any way that the scripture in unreliable. I have never attacked scripture. How we understand and use scripture is another matter. That there those who use it to replace the unction of the Holy Spirit, who would place the Holy Spirit under the authority of scripture, (an absurd proposition,) that I stand against.

The way you said that I claim a "special" relationship is much more telling than your subsequent words. I am sorry that you got that impression. If you had bothered to see my testimony that is scattered all over this board, you would know that I consider myself lower than the lowest, because of how I stepped all over His grace and mercy and love, using scripture to justify my sinful life.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#32
Jul 28, 2009
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#32
VW said:
I have never said in any way that the scripture in unreliable. I have never attacked scripture. How we understand and use scripture is another matter. That there those who use it to replace the unction of the Holy Spirit, who would place the Holy Spirit under the authority of scripture, (an absurd proposition,) that I stand against.

The way you said that I claim a "special" relationship is much more telling than your subsequent words. I am sorry that you got that impression. If you had bothered to see my testimony that is scattered all over this board, you would know that I consider myself lower than the lowest, because of how I stepped all over His grace and mercy and love, using scripture to justify my sinful life.
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There is a possibility that I misunderstood your position on the bible.

I pray that God will bless you with wisdom, and the knowledge to understand the "mystery of Christ", as given to Paul in Ephesians 3: 1-5.

I will leave you with the following:

John 12: 46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 "I know that His commandment is eternal life ; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Jesus said that His words will be the standard by which we will be judged on the last day. His words, which were recorded by eyewitnesses, and His words as revealed to Paul and other apostles, by the Holy Spirit, ARE the standard AND authority, by which we are to believe and live. They are recorded in the bible.

It is beyond the scope of this thread to discuss this further.

I have no animosity towards you, a brother in Christ, and wish you only the best.

God bless
 
VW

VW

Banned
#33
Dec 22, 2009
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#33
Not we who will be judged, but those who do not keep His words.

Yes, let's start another thread.

As to this thread, I fear that God does hate, much more perfectly than we could ever be capable of. I truly would not want to be one who trod underfoot the blood of Jesus. The lake of fire might for eternity might seem to us a rather extreme punishment, seeing as there is no hope of getting free of it, ever, but this is the result of denying Christ. Hate in us is sin, but I don't believe it is sin, or even wrong in God. I remember the words of Jesus to the scribes and Pharisees, and how He soundly condemned them in the strongest of language. If we believe Him, He was speaking only those words He had heard His Father in heaven speaking.

Blessings in Christ,
 
Kakashi

Kakashi

Senior Member
#34
Jan 3, 2007
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#34
charisenexcelcis said:
Consider that the passage is not about Jacob and Esau, but about Edom and Israel. Look at the Malachi passage and the Romans passage. Are we interpreting the story of Jacob and Esau by the story of the nations of Israel and Edom?
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This is how I've seen it been taught, in the context of Paul quoting Malachi.
 
Sharp

Sharp

Senior Member
#35
May 5, 2009
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#35
superdave5221 said:
I'm sure glad that God didn't curse the Apostle Paul when, through his hatred for the Lord, he gave his authority to stone Stephen.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ commanded us to love those who hate us. Are we asked to be better than God? Does not Jesus love those who hate Him? Are we to tell those we evangelize that if they don't love God, that God will hate them? How is that different from the world?

Your one liner has nothing to do with love, but God's judgement. Surely you must know that Paul is speaking eschatologically. God is just, and must judge accordingly. But He loves us just the same!

Please try to see the big picture, and exegetical context when posting one liners like this.
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Dude

God sends people to hell. Do you think he loves those people when he is sending them there? Do you think he loves them after they get sent there? Is sending someone to hell a loving gesture? God must hate sinners at some point to send them to hell.

He only hates them though because they hate him. As to the example of the apostle Paul, he was obviously predestined by God to be found among the elect.

The bible doesn't reconcile predestination and man's responsibility. If a person ends up in heaven, its because God chose to save them by grace. If a person ends up in hell, its because they rejected and hated God throughout their entire life. God's wrath upon them is just and we have no right to question it.

Sure I accept the notion that God loves all people, but when a person dies who has rejected and hated God throughout their whole life, and God sends them to hell, then surely you can see that at this point the person is not being loved by God.
 
Kakashi

Kakashi

Senior Member
#36
Jan 3, 2007
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#36
Sharp said:
Dude

God sends people to hell. Do you think he loves those people when he is sending them there? Do you think he loves them after they get sent there? Is sending someone to hell a loving gesture? God must hate sinners at some point to send them to hell.

He only hates them though because they hate him. As to the example of the apostle Paul, he was obviously predestined by God to be found among the elect.

The bible doesn't reconcile predestination and man's responsibility. If a person ends up in heaven, its because God chose to save them by grace. If a person ends up in hell, its because they rejected and hated God throughout their entire life. God's wrath upon them is just and we have no right to question it.

Sure I accept the notion that God loves all people, but when a person dies who has rejected and hated God throughout their whole life, and God sends them to hell, then surely you can see that at this point the person is not being loved by God.
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Actually to a point you'd have to say that since God sent those who hate Him to Hell, that is a form of love insomuch that God respects human's choice to be apart from Him. God does send people to hell and he still does love those people because they are still in His image, but tarnished forever. If he put people in heaven who really didn't want to be near God then that would be forcing someone against their will and that wouldn't be love. Hell is a place for those who choose their own way and God sends them there to be away from His presence forever since that is that person's will to be as such. People might not like the consequences of their will, but it is what they reap.

God's wrath on them is indeed put on them, but His love is still there. God's harsh( or should we say appropriately harsh) response to man's will to not follow Him does not fail to subdue His love. Therefore if God sends people to Hell that is a part of love in that he does not force a man's will, but will send Him appropriately where His will is, wanting to be close or far away from God.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#37
Dec 22, 2009
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#37
I hope we are not making the mistake of assigning motives to God based on our capabilities. God chooses us for salvation, to know Him and to hear His voice, and so He can know us. Jesus says, " I no longer call you servant, but friend." God is love, and He does hate those who refuse Him when He is speaking.
 
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