New wine in old wine skins

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

In our own lives, we try to add Jesus to what we already believe. Our culture loves its cafeteria, buffet style religion, where people pick and choose from an array of beliefs and plop them all together on one plate, merging together into one tasteless mass. Jesus is something completely new that can't be merged together with the old. He has opened a new dining establishment. This one is different from the worldly fare we are used to; it's a feast our taste buds have waited for our entire lives. Because once we take that first bite of grace, we'll never want to go back.

The question for us as we consider putting new wine into old wine skins and patching old garments with new patches, is how often do we try to tack Jesus on to our lives? How often do we try to maintain the old ways of this world while still including Jesus on the side? How often do we sing Amazing Grace yet still live as though it's all up to us?

Jesus didn't come to simply patch up our tattered lives; he came to give us completely new ones. As it says in Ezekiel, we don't just need band-aids to fix our hearts, we need brand new hearts altogether. "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh" (11:19).

Christina Fox...

oldhermit · Jun 22, 2017

What you say is correct but it really has nothing to do with Jesus' use of these two parables.

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

Indeed it does concerning the principle of his parable so lets not major in the minors and stick to the point and how it applies to our lives. Matthew 9:16; II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:22; Colossians 3:8-9.
No one with a reasonable amount of experience in mending clothes would waste a piece of new cloth to repair an old garment. If new cloth is used to patch an old garment, and the patch becomes wet, it shrinks as it dries and puts strain on the old garment. The tear becomes worse than it was.
Jesus is showing that His "new" doctrines do not match the old rites of the Pharisees, which required a lot of fasting. If His "new" doctrines were attached to their old ones, it would distort the truth. Christ is preaching against syncretism, the mixing of beliefs. We must completely replace the old human way of life with the new godly way of life. Because God's "new" way is righteous and spiritually strong, it cannot be combined with the "old" wicked and weak human way of life. They are incompatible.
New Wine... Matthew 9:17; Joshua 9:3-5.
Jesus' illustration derives from wine bottling. In those times, "bottles" were made of animal skins—sheep, goat, or ox—and, after being properly prepared, filled with wine or water. These skins came in various sizes—an ox-skin held as much as 60 gallons. Horses and camels could carry glass or ceramic bottles or wooden kegs only with difficulty, but two skins tied together and laid across a beast's back could be carried a long distance. After a time, an animal skin became brittle and ruptured easily. New wine put into an old skin would ferment, expand, and burst them open. New skins, however, were strong enough to stretch without bursting.
Christ's illustration suggests that there is a wise and proper way to do things. It was not fitting to mix His doctrines with the old and corrupt doctrines of the Pharisees. To take God's truth and try to press it into some other form would change it into a lie, making the truth of God useless.

oldhermit · Jun 22, 2017

The context of the parables is feasting and fasting so the question has to be, how do these two parables illustrate that context?

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

The Pharisees Did It for Appearance
The Pharisees would fast often, but that was not the unrighteous part. Like the Israelite fathers, it was not for the right reason (Isaiah 58:3-9; Zechariah 7:1-14). It was ill motivated. If the heart is not really in it, then God is really not pleased. If the purpose is to make people feel impressed with us, then that is not a proper reason or motive for fasting before God. It is not for impressing people. When impressing people is the motive, this does not uphold the demands of the Law.

This kind of fasting is like showing people how proud you are of your humility. Jesus is correct that this was not the motive of righteousness upheld by the Law of Moses, but this is really against the Law. It is not that Jesus is trying to invent a new law of fasting here, but that when we fast it is to be with proper motives. When the Pharisees did it for the praise of men "they have their reward." They wanted the praise of men and that is all they will ever get.

grif101 · Jun 22, 2017

This is from gotquestions.org

"These parables, found in Mark 2:18-22, begin with a statement that the Pharisees and the disciples of John the Baptist were fasting. The twice-weekly fast was a tradition adopted by the legalistic Pharisees at the time, even though the Mosaic Law prescribed only one fast on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:29, 31). Some people came to Jesus and asked Him why His disciples did not fast like the Pharisees and those of John’s disciples who had remained loyal to the Pharisaic traditions. Jesus’ response is given in three short parables.

The first one is a parable of a bridegroom with his groomsmen at a wedding feast. Jesus’ point is that fasting during the wedding feast is pointless. In this story Jesus is the Bridegroom, and while He is present in this world, it is a time of celebration because He is the fulfillment of their Messianic prophecies. Jesus Himself said that He came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17). To continue fasting with Jesus present is akin to fasting and being mournful during a wedding celebration in which the groom is present.

The other two parables, which are similar, make the same point. The first one says you don’t put a new patch on an old garment, and the second says you don’t put new wine into an old wineskin. In the first parable, if you put a new patch on an old garment, when the new patch shrinks due to washing, it will tear away from the older garment, making the tear worse. Similarly, new wine needs a new wineskin because as the new wine expands during the fermentation process, it stretches the wineskin. An old wineskin will burst under the pressure of new wine.

These two parables illustrate the fact that you can’t mix old religious rituals with new faith in Jesus. Jesus’ disciples were not fasting along with the Pharisees and John’s disciples because they were now under the new covenant of grace and faith in Christ. As mentioned earlier, Jesus fulfilled the law; therefore, there is no longer any need to continue with the old rituals. Jesus cannot be added to a works-based religion. In the case of the Pharisees, they were consumed with their own self-righteousness, and faith in Jesus cannot be combined with self-righteous rituals."

If I understand you correctly, you're saying our old lives (old rituals as in the parable) can't be combined with a new life in Christ. They aren't compatible, as old wineskins aren't compatible with new wine and old cloth isn't compatible with new cloth.

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

Thank you for giving more clarification

oldhermit · Jun 22, 2017

That is pretty good but consider this. The application is simply that fasting and celebration, just like feasting and sorrow and impending doom, are incompatible. Jesus appeals to the simple logic of these everyday examples to show the foolishness of mixing things that are incompatible. Everyone knew that one did not sew a new patch on an old garment nor did one put new wine in an old wine skin. They all knew the foolishness of these things. The result would be greater damage to the garment and the loss of both the wine skin and it's contents. In the same way, one did not celebrate (which is represented by the feasting) during the time of sorrow and one did not fast during the time of celebration. These are contradictory to one another. As Jesus says, both are ruined. Both fasting and celebration are profitable in their proper contexts but when they are joined together, they represent a contradiction that destroys the significance of both the fasting and the joy. While Jesus was with them, it was time for joy and celebration which was to be joined with feasting. When he was taken away, then would be the proper time for sorrow which is accompanied by fasting.

Marcelo · Jun 22, 2017

kisharena80 said:

In our own lives, we try to add Jesus to what we already believe. Our culture loves its cafeteria, buffet style religion, where people pick and choose from an array of beliefs and plop them all together on one plate, merging together into one tasteless mass. Jesus is something completely new that can't be merged together with the old. He has opened a new dining establishment. This one is different from the worldly fare we are used to; it's a feast our taste buds have waited for our entire lives. Because once we take that first bite of grace, we'll never want to go back.

What you say is true, Kisharena. We all have a tendency to do that.

oldhermit · Jun 22, 2017

grif101 said:

I agree with you on this point.

This point however, is completely foreign to the context. These parables have absolutely nothing to do with the old covenant vs the new covenant. The context is about fasting and feasting, and there is no mention in this entire narrative about either the old law or the new covenant. This must be forced into the narrative in order to arrive at this interpretation. Frequent ritualized fasting was never part of the old Law so this reference to fasting was not a reference to the Law of Moses.

If you like we could take a much broader look at this text in its setting and see just what was going on between Jesus and the Pharisees.

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

oldhermit said:

Now it's coming out and ultimately it goes back to this The gospel of Jesus Christ cannot be fit into the Old Testament’s Mosaic Law and covenantal sacrificial systems because these are insufficient to take away sins. This explains Jesus’ statement that “Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved” (Matt 9:17). Just as “new wine is for fresh wineskins” (Mark 2:22b) the New Covenant is for new converts and those who have repented and trusted in Christ and have not trusted in their own righteousness by the deeds or works of the law like the scribes and the Pharisees did. They cannot be saved by the old wine. There is only one way to be saved and that is through Jesus Christ and Him alone (Acts 4:12) “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come” (2nd Cor 5:17).

grif101 · Jun 22, 2017

oldhermit said:

[FONT=&quot]I actually would like to delve deeper into this. This particular parable has always been unclear to me. Although I do like the comparison used earlier.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you. I'd like to discuss it more.[/FONT]

oldhermit · Jun 22, 2017

kisharena80 said:

Jesus in not referring to himself as new wine nor is he discussing covenants. Look at the text from the beginning of verse 18. Here is the setting for the parables.
“John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they came and said to Him, 'Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?' And Jesus said to them, 'While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day. No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.'”

A. The setting
Jesus and his disciples are in Matthew's house eating with tax collectors and sinners, Mark 2:16. Luke calls the gathering a “great crowd of tax collectors and other people,” Luke 5:29.Because there was a question about why Jesus' disciples did not fast, Jesus offers three parables that present a lesson in incompatibility.

1. John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting.

a. John's disciples fasted often. In Matthew 11:16-19, Jesus says that John came “neither eating nor drinking” and the Pharisees accused him of having a demon. By contrast, when Jesus came both “eating and drinking” the Pharisees said, “Behold a gluttonous man and a wine bibber,” Matthew 11:19. Jesus compared this unreasonable attitude of that generation to children playing in the marketplace. “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance (celebration); we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn (sorrow).’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.'” Like the children in the market place, the Pharisees were not going to be pleased no matter what game was played. They criticized both John and Jesus and refused to listen to either. They would not mourn at John's warnings of judgement (the funeral dirge), neither would they celebrate and rejoice at the presence of the bridegroom (the playing of the flute and the dance).
b. John's disciples fasted often because John's message was one of impending doom with the “winnowing fan” and the “ax laid at the root.” For them, this was a time of sadness and sorrow.

2. The Pharisees fasted often but this was more for a public show so that others would think them pious rather than for true piety. Actually, they merely made a pretense of fasting, so this served only to reinforce their hypocrisy.

a. In Matthew 6:16-18, Jesus accused them of fasting “to be seen of men.”
b. To the Jews, religion was not joyous but something that was weighty and burdensome. While the Pharisees bound these burdens on the people, they were unwilling to bear them themselves, “Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.” Matthew 23:1-4.
c. Requirements of the Law about fasting
A national participation in fasting was observed one time a year – the Day of Atonement, Leviticus 16:29-30; 23:27-31; Numbers 29:7. Over time, this became regarded as simply, “the fasting day,” Jeremiah 36:6, “So you go and read from the scroll which you have written at my dictation the words of the LORD to the people in the LORD'S house on a fast day. And also you shall read them to all the people of Judah who come from their cities.” In Acts 27:9 it is called, “the fast.” Voluntary fasts were practiced for a number of reasons such as personal humiliation in sin, for sorrow, affliction, and death in the family, and quite favorably so by the Lord; but frequent fasting was never imposed by law.

B. The parable of the attendants of the bride chamber, Matthew 9:14-15, Mark. 2; 18-20, Luke. 5:33-35
Two questions were posed by the Pharisees and the disciples of John, 18.

1. “Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?”
This question seems to have come solely from the scribes and as always, with such questions about Jesus from the scribes and the Pharisees, there is an air of accusation. If he condescends to eat with tax collectors and sinners, then he can't be any better than they are. They use themselves and their own conduct as a metric by which to judge Jesus. “We do not do this and neither should he.” “We are better than they.”

a. Jesus responded by saying, “They that are whole have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners,” 17. Thus, he is in the right place and in the right company.
b. Matthew 9:13 adds, “But go and learn what this means, I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” (Hosea 6:6). The Pharisees were great at offering sacrifices. They were experts at it. What they needed was to learn to exorcise mercy to those whom they served. This is what pleases God. Jesus used the words of the prophet as the metric by which to judge the scribes.

2. “Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?”
This may have been a question posed simply out of curiosity, at least on the part of John's disciples, but there may have also been other things implied in this question from the scribes such as, “what right do you have for celebration, or why do you violate the custom?”

a. In answer to these questions, Jesus defended these actions by comparing them to a wedding celebration, “The bride groom is here.” So this was a time for celebration which is appropriately accompanied by feasting, not fasting.
b. When the bridegroom was taken away, the disciples would fast for then they would have proper reason for expressing sorrow, Matthew 11:16-17. Fasting only has meaning when there is just cause for it. Where appropriate circumstances and motives are absent, fasting is nothing more than pious mockery.

C. The parable of the new patches on old garments and new wine in old wine skins.
The most popular application of these two parables is that the old law is not to be joined with the new covenant. But, I think there is a real problem with this interpretation.

1. These parables have absolutely nothing to do with the old covenant vs the new covenant.

a. The context is about fasting and feasting, not the old and new covenants. There is no mention in this entire narrative about either the old law or the new covenant. This must be forced into the narrative in order to arrive at this interpretation.
b. Frequent ritualized fasting was never part of the old Law so this reference to fasting was not a reference to the Law of Moses.

2. The application is simply that fasting and celebration, just like feasting and sorrow and impending doom, are incompatible. Jesus appeals to the simple logic of these everyday examples to show the foolishness of mixing things that are incompatible. Everyone knew not to sew a new patch on an old garment nor put new wine in an old wine skin. They all knew the foolishness of these things. The result would be greater damage to the garment and the loss of both the wine skin and it's contents. In the same way, one did not celebrate (which is represented by the feasting) during the time of sorrow and one did not fast during the time of celebration. These are contradictory to one another. As Jesus says, both are ruined. Both fasting and celebration are profitable in their proper contexts but when they are joined together, they represent a contradiction that destroys the significance of both the fasting and the joy. While Jesus was with them, it was time for joy and celebration which was to be joined with feasting. When he was taken away, then would be the proper time for sorrow which is accompanied by fasting.

MattforJesus · Jun 22, 2017

Mat 9:14 Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

In other words no person can receive the Holy Spirit unless they have repented of all their sins,and have turned away from sin hating sin,for then there condition is forgiven,and clean,compared to the world.

They complained your disciples do not fast,but Jesus said I am with them,but when I am gone,and they receive the Spirit they will fast,for then they are forgiven,and clean,and Jesus I will not leave you comfortless,but I will come to you.

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

Wow once again I'm going to have to ignore you on this because it goes deeper than just fasting and feasting. Everytime a principle is given here comes the theologians dissecting and talking about stick to the context No we should stick to the foundation which is Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone. Thank you for the input though.

EarsToHear · Jun 22, 2017

Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

The word used for "bottles" in the Greek text is # 779 in Strong's Greek dictionary. "Askos, as-kos'; a leathern (or skin) bag used as a bottle." Jesus is talking about a leather wineskin that new wine was put in to be aged. A new piece of leather is stretchable and pliable as the pressures are brought on as the wine ferments. However, once the wine bags of leather have cured and become hardened in ways by age, it will not expand again if the new wine is poured into it. If you do put new wine into it, in a very short time that bag will explode.

Jesus Christ is saying, that is exactly the way that the religious community will be. They get set in their traditions and ways, and it is impossible for them to adjust as the new wine, the truth of God's Word is given to them. They just can't take it, for they have always been that way, mom and dad were that way, and they just will not give up their false doctrines, and be open to the Word no matter what. Jesus is saying that this is the reason that He went out to get new believers that would be followers and doers of the Word. The old Christians are to set in their ways, and they refuse to keep an open ear to the Spirit of God and be led on the path that He leads.

Many times Christians feel that they become too perfect to follow the great commission, to go out on the highways and byways to tell others of Christ, no they would rather sit in their pew, sing when the preacher says to sing, and listen to the few minutes of talk that he has prepared. The hour is over and now let's go eat, and have fun. That is their idea of a good Christian. This type is primed and ready to jump into Satan the Antichrist's bed when he comes, and they won't know any different.

So What Jesus is telling us, is that if the Christians around you are not open to the word, just leave them alone and seek out other people that are open to the Word. They will be pliable and able to receive the Truth. You try to fit the truth, chapter by chapter and verse by verse in a traditional church that is set in its ways, it is going to burst. The next question is, How is your skin doing today, will it stretch a little when the truth hits your ears, or will you bust? The lesson that Jesus is teaching is that a lot of people just can't stand the truth.

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

Sorry I was replying to the post before yours yesss that's what I was trying to state.

Enow · Jun 22, 2017

I do not believe Jesus was still on topic about answering the disciples of John the Baptist's on why His disciples were not fasting. He went on to speak of His future death and resurrection, and what that meant to "followers" of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 9:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. [SUP][SUP]16 [/SUP]No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.17 [/SUP]Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mark 2:[SUP][SUP]21 [/SUP]No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.22 [/SUP]And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Luke 5:[SUP]36 [/SUP]And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.[SUP] 37 [/SUP]And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.[SUP]38 [/SUP]But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

I believe Jesus was talking about salvation in how God was going to do this by making us new creatures able to hold the Holy Spirit to abide in us forever, thus a testimony that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Galatians 6:[SUP]15 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

We are a new creature in Christ thus new wine bottles.

1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?[SUP] 20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The new wine is the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost in us.

kisharena80 · Jun 22, 2017

Amen!!! Say it again

DustyRhodes · Jun 22, 2017

Clearly this means the following:

Galatians 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written:
“Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.
”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]e[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will
live by faith.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]f[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does
these things will live by them.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]g[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] [SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming
a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]h[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] [SUP]14 [/SUP]He redeemed
us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus,
so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

We cannot be observant of the old law when we are Christian. Jesus is saying here the two don't
mix. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfil it which He did. In another place it says
Jesus proclaims he who comes through me comes to the father..in other words the the new law is
1.Love the Lord your God and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Hebrews 8: [SUP]13 [/SUP]By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

New wine in old wine skins

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