Our new relationship to the law.

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J

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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#142
eternally-gratefull said:
I never said the law was sin

and gain, Sin is far deeper than the law says.

if your looking just to the law You will be lacking knowledge of what true sin is.
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By the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

I include the law as Jesus re-defined it in Matthew 5-7, in this.
 
J

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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#144
BroTan said:
But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. .
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No, the Lord maintains your grace because of your faith;

And faith is something that produces obedience.

So, it is not that you grace is maintained through your law-keeping; but that your law-keeping is maintained by your faith.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#145
#145
justbyfaith said:
By the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

I include the law as Jesus re-defined it in Matthew 5-7, in this.
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The law says if we commit adultry we sin (breaking the law)

But as Jesus said, if we look to a woman with lust. we have sinned (I kept the letter of the law. I did not sin according to the law. Yet I still sinned

Yes, the law is the knowledge of sin

ITS NOT THE WAY WE KNOW EVERY POSSIBLE SIN WE CAN COMMIT

thats WHY people like the phariees thought they kept the law. They looked ot the letter of the law. and by practice they kept it (except as Jesus proved over and over the first command)

they refused to be taught by the law so they crucified Christ.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#146
#146
justbyfaith said:
The law is the specifics of what it means to love God and neighbor, yes.
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WRONG

If you love your neighbor (truly) you will not break the law

You can keep the law yet not love your neighbor. The jews proved this over and over
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#147
Dec 6, 2016
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#147
justbyfaith said:
The law is the specifics of what it means to love God and neighbor, yes.
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Christ did not do away with the law in stone but Christ gave us the spirit of the law in our hearts to perfect the law in stone.
 
J

justbyfaith

Well-known member
#148
Sep 16, 2021
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#148
eternally-gratefull said:
The law says if we commit adultry we sin (breaking the law)

But as Jesus said, if we look to a woman with lust. we have sinned (I kept the letter of the law. I did not sin according to the law. Yet I still sinned

Yes, the law is the knowledge of sin

ITS NOT THE WAY WE KNOW EVERY POSSIBLE SIN WE CAN COMMIT

thats WHY people like the phariees thought they kept the law. They looked ot the letter of the law. and by practice they kept it (except as Jesus proved over and over the first command)

they refused to be taught by the law so they crucified Christ.
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Yes, for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Of course, this is what I would define as being New Testament law.

But I would say, that the law, as Jesus re-defined it, shows us the heart of what the law is all about; and that if we understand that the law is spiritual, then when we apply it spiritually, it speaks of every sin that we can commit.

eternally-gratefull said:
WRONG

If you love your neighbor (truly) you will not break the law

You can keep the law yet not love your neighbor. The jews proved this over and over
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I'm not in disagreement with you here.

Your first point speaks of what I have said to you; while your second point speaks of the exception to the rule.

My point is that if you violate the law, you violate love.

Of course a person can keep the law perfectly and yet not have the love of the Lord in his heart.

But any time a person is walking according to love, I am saying that he will not violate the specifics of the law.

So, I will rephrase my statement, to say that, if the love of God is in you, your keeping of the law is the specifics of that love.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#149
#149
justbyfaith said:
Yes, for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
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Yep. and this is not found in the ten commandments or mosaic law

Of course, this is what I would define as being New Testament law.

But I would say, that the law, as Jesus re-defined it, shows us the heart of what the law is all about; and that if we understand that the law is spiritual, then when we apply it spiritually, it speaks of every sin that we can commit.
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Jesus did not change the law. He put it in its place, and gave us a new understanding

The law as written still stands, and whoever is under it is under a curse.

You want to be under the curse. keep putting yourself under a law you have already failed to keep


I'm not in disagreement with you here.

Your first point speaks of what I have said to you; while your second point speaks of the exception to the rule.

My point is that if you violate the law, you violate love.

Of course a person can keep the law perfectly and yet not have the love of the Lord in his heart.

But any time a person is walking according to love, I am saying that he will not violate the specifics of the law.

So, I will rephrase my statement, to say that, if the love of God is in you, your keeping of the law is the specifics of that love.
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Again you have it backwards

If you violate love, you will most likely violate the law

I can violate love and not break the law. But If I let that continue in me, I will eventually break the law

Your looking to the letter. The letter was NOT given to show you how to live
 
J

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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#150
Give me an example of you violating love without violating the law.
 
J

justbyfaith

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#151
eternally-gratefull said:
Yep. and this is not found in the ten commandments or mosaic law
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The "law" in scripture actually refers to the law and the prophets and the Psalms.

And yes, it is taught in the prophets that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. For in Habakkuk we find it written that the just shall live by faith.

Jesus did not change the law. He put it in its place, and gave us a new understanding

The law as written still stands, and whoever is under it is under a curse.

You want to be under the curse. keep putting yourself under a law you have already failed to keep
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There is a blessing to those who look into the perfect law of liberty and continue in it (James 1:25).

I have mentioned this elsewhere; but I will re-iterate here:

Galatians 3:10 speaks of a curse on all those who seek to be justified by the law (see also Galatians 5:1-4).

But James 1:22-25 applies to those who understand that they are justified through faith in the blood of Christ and have moved on in their walk unto "the obedience of faith" (Romans 16:26 (KJV)).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#152
#152
justbyfaith said:
The "law" in scripture actually refers to the law and the prophets and the Psalms.

And yes, it is taught in the prophets that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. For in Habakkuk we find it written that the just shall live by faith.
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The law Paul speaks of is the mosaic law

In the nt. When both are spoken of. The terms law and prophets were always used so as not to confuse the reader


There is a blessing to those who look into the perfect law of liberty and continue in it (James 1:25).

I have mentioned this elsewhere; but I will re-iterate here:

Galatians 3:10 speaks of a curse on all those who seek to be justified by the law (see also Galatians 5:1-4).

But James 1:22-25 applies to those who understand that they are justified through faith in the blood of Christ and have moved on in their walk unto "the obedience of faith" (Romans 16:26 (KJV)).
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The curse is on ANYONE UNDER THE LAW

Moses said. Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word of this law. and the people said amen

Perfection is required my friend

If your not perfect. YOu have passed the ability to keep the law. You are cursed by it, Apart from Grace
 
J

justbyfaith

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#153
Sep 16, 2021
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#153
eternally-gratefull said:
The law Paul speaks of is the mosaic law

In the nt. When both are spoken of. The terms law and prophets were always used so as not to confuse the reader
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Isaiah's statement in Isaiah 28:11 was said to be from the law in 1 Corinthians 14:21.

And, the Psalmists statement in Psalms 82:6 was said to be from the law in John 10:34.

The curse is on ANYONE UNDER THE LAW

Moses said. Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word of this law. and the people said amen

Perfection is required my friend

If your not perfect. YOu have passed the ability to keep the law. You are cursed by it, Apart from Grace
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Paul was under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21 (kjv). Was he therefore cursed?

If he was cursed, then how can we trust his writings as being the inspired gospel message to us?

Perfection is required for those who are attempting to be justified by the law (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48, Galatians 5:1-4).

For those who know that they are justified through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ, they are blessed (not cursed; and this is not in contradiction to Galatians 3:10) if they look into the perfect law of liberty and continue in it (James 1:25).

Furthermore, sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

And, it is the general disposition of those who are born of God that they "do not" and "cannot" sin (1 John 3:9).

Take this as hyperbole if you like. For, if it is exaggeration to make a point, what point is John here trying to make?

Is it not that if we are truly born again, our hearts will be changed and we will begin to live a holy life; walking in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27)?

Even as it is written,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
 
J

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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#154
justbyfaith said:
1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Co 15:34, Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Eph 4:26, Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

We are obviously commanded not to transgress the law in these verses;

While it is clear from other scripture that obeying the law doesn't justify us;

But rather we obey the law because we are justified.

Just as we are not saved by works but are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10), so are we not saved by keeping the law but we are saved unto keeping the law.

While I have said in posts above that we come to that obedience in a roundabout way, through faith in Christ and through walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Tit 3:3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It should be clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (which includes law-keeping); however, if we have been regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost, we will have a changed life as the result of our salvation (which includes law-keeping, Ezekiel 36:25-27).

Jas 1:22, But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23, For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24, For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25, But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
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B

BroTan

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Sep 16, 2021
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#155
justbyfaith said:
No, the Lord maintains your grace because of your faith;

And faith is something that produces obedience.

So, it is not that you grace is maintained through your law-keeping; but that your law-keeping is maintained by your faith.
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Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14). After this we find only seven more verses in the bible, and none of them does away with God's commandments.

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree. If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his.

This is true love, and if obeyed how much better would our world be? This is why Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). These two commandments are the foundation of the entire law. Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today as Paul said.
 
B

BroTan

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eternally-gratefull said:
No one is saying we can keep on sinning and are free to break any or all of the commands

it would help if one tries to understand what others are saying and not just assume.
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I'm responding to what's been said, not what have not been said. To repent means to turn from our sinful ways and start obeying God's law. The water baptism signifies the washing away of our past sins. After repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus it would be foolish for us to turn around and willingly break God's commandments. If we make an honest mistake Jesus can help us, but if we sin willingly, look out! "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." (Hebrews 10:26-27).

We still must obey all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.
 
J

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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#157
BroTan said:
Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14). After this we find only seven more verses in the bible, and none of them does away with God's commandments.

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree. If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his.

This is true love, and if obeyed how much better would our world be? This is why Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). These two commandments are the foundation of the entire law. Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today as Paul said.
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Obeying the commandments is the result of having a genuine faith in Jesus Christ.

That being said, our justification and imputation of righteousness is apart from works (Romans 4:5-6); having its basis in God's forgiveness towards us (Romans 4:7-8); which does not come because of our works but rather is a direct result of God's grace alone.
 
J

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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#158
BroTan said:
I'm responding to what's been said, not what have not been said. To repent means to turn from our sinful ways and start obeying God's law. The water baptism signifies the washing away of our past sins. After repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus it would be foolish for us to turn around and willingly break God's commandments. If we make an honest mistake Jesus can help us, but if we sin willingly, look out! "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." (Hebrews 10:26-27).

We still must obey all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.
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It is still good to pay tithes; while it is not required for salvation that a person obey the dietary laws in the OT.

That being said, I personally have made it a commitment that I will not eat anything that comes from shellfish or the pig; I have given those things up as a way of showing the Lord that I love him more than those things. But if I were to eat them, it would not have any effect on my salvation whatsoever.
 
C

Cygnus

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Jul 20, 2021
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#159
justbyfaith said:
According to scripture, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14) are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and have been delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation.

For we have been forgiven through the blood of Christ; and therefore when the Father looks down on us, He sees, not our sins, but the blood and righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ.

And therefore, in the Father's sight, the law does not any longer point the finger at us and call us sinners.

While from the perspective of the Holy Ghost, whose job it is to convict of sin and also to sanctify the believer, He has a relationship with us where He deals with us according to our sins according to the law (1 Corinthians 9:22, Romans 3:20).

As concerning obedience, we are under the law to Christ (again, 1 Corinthians 9:22).

The law is written on our hearts and minds through the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5).

And again, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation;

while as concerning obedience we become obedient to the moral tenets of the law;

Not through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts (the letter); but through walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit (the spirit of what is written, Romans 7:6, 8:4).

As we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn us in our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23). Thus, when we bear the fruit of the Spirit, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven (see Ezekiel 36:25-27).

This is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to be the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is indeed righteousness.

Because, this righteousness is not obtained by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts.

Rather, we obtain the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14, Ephesians 1:13-14); and as we walk according to the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4, Galatians 5:22-23).

That being said, it is written that if anyone turns his ear away from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).

It is indeed faithful and true that those who are of the law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). However, this is as concerning those who are attempting to be justified by the law (Galatians 5:1-4).

For those who know that they are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ and not by their obedience / works / law-keeping, it becomes a blessing to look into the perfect law of liberty and to walk according to it (James 1:22-25).
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So I read through your post and I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Please explain what Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17-19. Remember this is Jesus saying these things and he is the Master. I don't want to see the Servant quoted to rebut or refute the Master. I am a Gentile and not a Jew so the Law had no bearing on me to begin with, only the Commandments which Jesus pointed to as the 10 in Matthew 19:17.
 
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