perfect

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S

Saint

Guest
#81
Hi Saint,
Can I repeat what I said before. I love your passion. Here we are searching in our minds and confirming in scripture and coming closer to God in brotherly love. What more could Jesus ask of us?
To this question. I dont know how to quote from your post so I will retype what you wrote.
Retyping. " He is the image of the invisible God " a quote from Colossians 1:15-17 . Then you paraphrase this by saying. "(so yes, Jesus is the visible form of God)
Can you see the difference. Scripture says Jesus is the image. Your paraphrase says Jesus is. To me an image is a reflection of what is real.
Where you mention Jesus being before all things. I take that to exclude being before God as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 15:27 " For he has put everything under his feet.Now when it says that 'everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
God is from everlastiing to everlasting and Jesus is from the Beginning (of creation) to the end (of redemption). The Word begotten before the world and through whom the world was made is God's plan to restore creation back to Himself.

so what you're sayin is, in the vast category of "all things", God is not included? well that goes against the fact that God is all things, so how can He not be included?

and to your "visible image is not the same" theory, God was visible in the beginning, so they are still the same. and God was visible after the beginning as well, where moses saw God's back. So obviously God isn't strictly invisible, and as you can see, He can be seen, and therefore when Colossians says that Jesus is the visible image, it is most likely refering to that.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#82
hmm, looking at what i just put up, it's a little sarcastic, so sorry about that, ed.
 
M

Mich223

Guest
#83
Jesus was born perfect.
 
E

ed

Guest
#84
these were my questions from a few days ago
Hi Saint,
Thanks for tracking them down for me. I have lost them as an aid to this post. I don't know how to put them in here. Here goes
See God's face. Yes Adam and EVe did see God's face and yes again after they had sinned but they were still in the Garden of Eden. We will again see God's face after the restoration when we will have completed the circle back to where it all began. A holy people separated to God and who walk with Him. Rev 22:4 They will see His face."
But from the Garden of Eden until then,
Ex 33:20 "But He said, you can not see my face for no one may see me and live."
Ex 33:23 but my face must not be seen.
I do not know of any scripture that changes this. IT was God's finger I think that wrote the 10 commandments. It was the Spirit of the Lord in the dove. I dont think God came down onto the earth and split the Red Sea. I only ever see God working through some avenue. Be it a donkey, angels, prostitutes, floods, famines, wars, sicknesses, plagues,even Jesus. etc. But I can't recall any instant in scripture where God came down to earth and showed His face and did supernatural things. Not even in front of Moses. I think the bible says that God says only Noah, Job and Daniel were righteous enough to save but only their own lives but not the lives of their families yet even these did not see God's face. That is why I believe as I do on this issue.
Genesis 18 Is the exception. Here very plainly the Lord spends time with,talks to and allows Abraham to bargain with Him. I don't understand and until I do I won't change from the other scriptures. Maybe it is because Abraham is the father of all who believe.
Maybe you can help me.
love
edwin.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#85
Hi VW,
Yes it is great because when we praise and worship Him we feel lifted up. I am sorry but that word subservient is difficult for my skin. Maybe it is my lack of knowledge of the English language but I prefer to think that Jesus chose to lay down his life not because he was subservient but because he loved us. It was in power and in positive affirmative action, a perfect love going forward, that had Jesus voluntarily laid down his life. Jesus even said, if he had asked His Father for 10,000 (?) angels to save him, God would have supplied them. To me this is very scary. How loving is God? To think He would sacrifice this plan.What next!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The whole thing blows me away but still scares me. I don't want to whip out and cause distress.
love
edwin
love
edwin.
Well, I see it like this: God wanted to save us, and He asked His Son to come and be "The Sacrifice" in order that we could be brought into fellowship with God through the Son. Yes, Jesus laid down His life for us in His love, but He also laid it down because He had a commandment from His Father, to lay it down, and to take it up again. It is really strange, because God the Father has placed everything to be in submission to Jesus, has given Him all authority and all judgment, and even to have life in Himself just as God the Father has life in Himself, but we understand that in this the Father is excepted. And still it blows me away that Jesus says that the reason that His Father loves Him is because He obeyed the commandment that He had received from Him, to lay down His life for us. Why? Because God loves us just that much.

What they both endured in this, to finish this plan, this work, we cannot put it into words. All this to make it possible for us to enter a relationship with God, and to grow in that relationship, until that fills our lives.

Jesus always did and still does the will of the Father. Always. He always lives to intercede for us, because we are drawing near to God the Father through Him.

In His love,
vic
 
E

ed

Guest
#86
hmm, looking at what i just put up, it's a little sarcastic, so sorry about that, ed.
Hi Saint,
No I wouldn't call it sarcastic but I think it is very defensive. How about we give it a days rest and then after a think for a while we can get stuck into it again.
It reminds me of the commandments where Moses allowed the men to divorce through the use of a letter. I imagine in those days pen and paper were not a common commodity.Maybe for some it even meant waitiing for a year to pass and then on their temple visit they could find someone to write the letter. Of course by this time the reason for the divorce would have mellowed and the incident would be a non issue. Probably Moses in his wisdom was just buying time, like a cooling off period.
love
edwin.
 
E

ed

Guest
#87
Well, I see it like this: God wanted to save us, and He asked His Son to come and be "The Sacrifice" in order that we could be brought into fellowship with God through the Son. Yes, Jesus laid down His life for us in His love, but He also laid it down because He had a commandment from His Father, to lay it down, and to take it up again. It is really strange, because God the Father has placed everything to be in submission to Jesus, has given Him all authority and all judgment, and even to have life in Himself just as God the Father has life in Himself, but we understand that in this the Father is excepted. And still it blows me away that Jesus says that the reason that His Father loves Him is because He obeyed the commandment that He had received from Him, to lay down His life for us. Why? Because God loves us just that much.

What they both endured in this, to finish this plan, this work, we cannot put it into words. All this to make it possible for us to enter a relationship with God, and to grow in that relationship, until that fills our lives.

Jesus always did and still does the will of the Father. Always. He always lives to intercede for us, because we are drawing near to God the Father through Him.

In His love,
vic
Hi VW,
May i call you Vic. Amen.
love
edwin.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#90
Hi Saint,
Thanks for tracking them down for me. I have lost them as an aid to this post. I don't know how to put them in here. Here goes
See God's face. Yes Adam and EVe did see God's face and yes again after they had sinned but they were still in the Garden of Eden. We will again see God's face after the restoration when we will have completed the circle back to where it all began. A holy people separated to God and who walk with Him. Rev 22:4 They will see His face."
But from the Garden of Eden until then, .
Ex 33:20 "But He said, you can not see my face for no one may see me and live."
Ex 33:23 but my face must not be seen.
Wouldn't that mean that the Garden of Eden has the power to let us see God's face? I wasn't aware that God gave the Garden of Eden anything of that much importance. The reason God gave Moses that Moses couldn't see His face was that His face is too Holy, and since Holiness is the absence of sin, that would mean that it wouldn't matter where they were standing because sin is sin and Holyness is Holyness.

I do not know of any scripture that changes this.

IT was God's finger I think that wrote the 10 commandments
that's as hands on as it gets
I dont think God came down onto the earth and split the Red Sea.
so your problem is with Him not coming onto earth and doing it? well He comes to earth in one point in the Bible and i will get to that in a second.
I only ever see God working through some avenue. Be it a donkey, angels, prostitutes, floods, famines, wars, sicknesses, plagues,even Jesus. etc. But I can't recall any instant in scripture where God came down to earth and showed His face and did supernatural things. Not even in front of Moses. I think the bible says that God says only Noah, Job and Daniel were righteous enough to save but only their own lives but not the lives of their families yet even these did not see God's face. That is why I believe as I do on this issue.
Genesis 18 Is the exception. Here very plainly the Lord spends time with,talks to and allows Abraham to bargain with Him. I don't understand and until I do I won't change from the other scriptures. Maybe it is because Abraham is the father of all who believe.
Maybe you can help me.
OK, now let me address where you quoted Exodus when God told Moses that no one could see His face. and i agree, that you cannot see the true face of God. but what i was saying earlier (but you see, i am very poor at explaining things) is that Jesus's face was like that of a mask. when people looked at Him, they saw a human face, covering His divine face. that is the best i can explain on that one, but if you are confused, please tell me and pray that the Holy Spirit can better explain through me.

Now, on to where is said i would talk about God coming to earth. Look back in Genesis to chapter 32. Here we find and excellent example of God making Himself weaker. Now, i have been told by many that Jacob fights merely an angel, but that doesn't explain why the man is called God. Here, many people say, how could God lose in a fight. Well the same reason God, or according to what you believe the Word, can be killed by 4 nails and a cat of nine tails. it's because They were lowering themselves in order to help man kind. And I also ask, how would Jacob be able to beat an angel, even if it was one? angels are fierce warriors who are not allowed to attack humans, but bless them. Unless these humans are evil, or the angel is. Now Jacob was close to God, and the angel wouldn't be able to bless if it were evil. so all in all, the Bible says that it was God. Now let's look at verse 30, shall we:So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." so there you have it, Jacob saw God face to face (obviously not God's true face) and lived. and that was the point i was trying to make earlier. God can be seen by us, it is possible. but God must hide His face behind a human mask, and that's where Jesus comes in.

Now, obviously there are those who disagree with the above, but they cannot use Biblical evidence to disprove it, (unless they go on a rant about how the Bible is misinterpreted. why they believe that God would be willing to let the mistakes of humans permanently allow His Word to deceive is beyond me) and i have Biblical evidence to prove it.

Now, on to your question of why Abraham was different, it's because some people are chosen to talk to God directly, and some are chosen to see God's true form, (only His back, though) but regardless, we will all see Him one day, face to face, and that is the most exciting thing i have ever thought about. How about you?
 
S

Saint

Guest
#91
ed, it has been more than a day, and i would love for us to continue this.
 
E

ed

Guest
#92
Wouldn't that mean that the Garden of Eden has the power to let us see God's face? I wasn't aware that God gave the Garden of Eden anything of that much importance. The reason God gave Moses that Moses couldn't see His face was that His face is too Holy, and since Holiness is the absence of sin, that would mean that it wouldn't matter where they were standing because sin is sin and Holyness is Holyness.

I do not know of any scripture that changes this.

that's as hands on as it gets

so your problem is with Him not coming onto earth and doing it? well He comes to earth in one point in the Bible and i will get to that in a second.

OK, now let me address where you quoted Exodus when God told Moses that no one could see His face. and i agree, that you cannot see the true face of God. but what i was saying earlier (but you see, i am very poor at explaining things) is that Jesus's face was like that of a mask. when people looked at Him, they saw a human face, covering His divine face. that is the best i can explain on that one, but if you are confused, please tell me and pray that the Holy Spirit can better explain through me.

Now, on to where is said i would talk about God coming to earth. Look back in Genesis to chapter 32. Here we find and excellent example of God making Himself weaker. Now, i have been told by many that Jacob fights merely an angel, but that doesn't explain why the man is called God. Here, many people say, how could God lose in a fight. Well the same reason God, or according to what you believe the Word, can be killed by 4 nails and a cat of nine tails. it's because They were lowering themselves in order to help man kind. And I also ask, how would Jacob be able to beat an angel, even if it was one? angels are fierce warriors who are not allowed to attack humans, but bless them. Unless these humans are evil, or the angel is. Now Jacob was close to God, and the angel wouldn't be able to bless if it were evil. so all in all, the Bible says that it was God. Now let's look at verse 30, shall we:So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." so there you have it, Jacob saw God face to face (obviously not God's true face) and lived. and that was the point i was trying to make earlier. God can be seen by us, it is possible. but God must hide His face behind a human mask, and that's where Jesus comes in.

Now, obviously there are those who disagree with the above, but they cannot use Biblical evidence to disprove it, (unless they go on a rant about how the Bible is misinterpreted. why they believe that God would be willing to let the mistakes of humans permanently allow His Word to deceive is beyond me) and i have Biblical evidence to prove it.

Now, on to your question of why Abraham was different, it's because some people are chosen to talk to God directly, and some are chosen to see God's true form, (only His back, though) but regardless, we will all see Him one day, face to face, and that is the most exciting thing i have ever thought about. How about you?
Hi Saint,
Yes you are right. No one could see God's face unless God so chose. Yes we will all see Him one day and what a day it will be. It will be beyond our wildest dreams. To be in His presence as a loving son will be awesome. To be surrounded by peoples of the same mind and heart will be the coming together of The Family. Thank you for your time, belief, and patience.
love
edwin.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#93
Hi Saint,
Yes you are right. No one could see God's face unless God so chose. Yes we will all see Him one day and what a day it will be. It will be beyond our wildest dreams. To be in His presence as a loving son will be awesome. To be surrounded by peoples of the same mind and heart will be the coming together of The Family. Thank you for your time, belief, and patience.
love
edwin.
You're welcome, and from what your post sounds like, i guess this discussion is over. oh well, i've enjoyed our talks, because except for a little problem in the beginning, and a little problem from me here at the end, it was ver civil and sophisticated. so thank you for that, and i pray that we can have many more like this in the future.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#94
It was a good discussion, and I too enjoyed it.

In His peace and love,
vic
 
S

Saint

Guest
#95
I must say, you two are some of the most civilized people i've met. Ed, even in our disagreement, you were more civilized than most of my conversations with people i agree with.

God bless you all with wisdom and love in your days ahead. and again, thank you.