I did not write this, but I agree with it:
SOMEONE ASKED:
[FONT="]Can anybody give me one single example in the Bible (I'm being serious, not facetious) of Jesus being our " lover"? I don't mean the bride/bridegroom stuff....I mean an example of Jesus as physical intimate....okay, I'll say it.....sexual.... lover. [/FONT]
[FONT="]My mind is REELING with the implications. I've read this about 5 times now, clear through. I have more thoughts than I could even hope to put down on e-paper right now, about this.[/FONT]
[FONT="]I'm not surprised by this. I'm stunned by it...but not surprised. [/FONT]
REPLY:
This is a fascinating subject - as long as you can automatically refuse and reject the explicitly sexual images that threaten to offend. What IS SEXUAL SIN now will be SIN forever. Start with that and we all feel better.
As a partial introduction - every woman represents The Church and every man represents Christ. The relationship between the man and woman is a parody of the relationship between Christ and The Church. The Bible says this more than once and in more than one way. As a doctrinal proposition, IT CANNOT BE DENIED.
Here also is where Christianity makes for EQUALITY between men and women - BECAUSE, there mere fact of Christ lingering as "the ultimate bridegroom" emasculates every man. Men simply cannot relate to Christ in the way women do. Women automatically have a more relaxed and intimate sense of "personalness" with Christ's person and Lordship because there is no sexual perversion involved in their emotionally bonding to Christ. Men, on the other hand, are NOT PERMITTED to "imagine feel" this level of intimacy with Christ. We are essentially ALIENATED from Christ by the sexual sin implications. We stand removed at a distance - and must remain at that distance. NOT ONLY THAT - but Christ Jesus is the COMPETITION for us men to win and own the loyalty of the woman - so that Christ is a threat to us men. We are endlessly being compared to Christ BY THE WOMEN and (we are) FAILING AND FAILING AND FAILING.
I believe that the Levirate law of the OT where the "brother" must raise up "seed" for his deceased brother is fulfilled in every Christian husband. We are all the "2nd best" (after Christ) and we are mere stand-ins for Christ, who has perished from the earth. We are supposed to "raise up seed" for "our brother's house" - not for our own.
Jesus NEVER said "Call no woman 'mother' upon the earth. Even as dads, we men are put off, isolated and rejected. We are neither first choice as husband nor as dad. NO WOMAN CAN ever understand how a man relates to, believes in, trusts in and hopes in Christ. Neither can us men ever understand how a woman relates to, trusts in, loves and submits to Christ. To even try and understand what being the other sex is like is a sin of perversion - I only know where the limits are, and I am allowed to point those out.
Christianity is more automatically appealing to women than to men - because there is nothing essentially unnatural about a woman longing for Christ with exceeding passion - while it is abnormal and essentially perverted for men to do so. THAT IS WHY you will notice MORE WOMEN sitting in the Christian synagogues then men - especially SINGLE OR WIDOWED women.
I actually (think I) see the PRACTICAL AND ACTUAL EQUALITY that really does exist between men and women in the Christian faith - as in equal access to real power and real peace. Men have to "choke and gag" a little at the embrace of Christ, because FOR US MEN, it is always a matter of simply submitting as an INFERIOR MAN to another man. Women face no such automatic and endlessly-being-repeated repudiation-of-the-self in submitting to Christ. Christ is auotmatically the "True Prince Charming" who rushes in to rescue her from the dragon. We men are all FAILED "Prince Charmings".
This illustrates what I mean - the women (figuratively-imaginatively) may sit right at Christ's feet and hold his hand while looking adoringly into His face and asking questions. Men (figuratively-imaginatively) MUST stop at some distance away and bow with their face to the ground in submission to Christ as Lord and Master. We cannot imagine Christ as "husband" in any sort of way without horrifying sin. We men are INNATELY less emotionally intimate in our connection with Christ. There is a barrier in front of us that simply does not exist for the women.
IT WOULD BE SO MUCH EASIER for us men if we could regard Christ ONLY as a "father figure" - then we could approach Him as protector and parental authority - but Jesus advertises Himself to us men and you sisters as "Brother" - and that makes Him in a clear sense a amn on our own level. Since we have to regard Christ as "Brother", we men cannot take emotional shelter from the threat to our independence and "manliness" by thinking of Jesus only as a "dad" - and then, the last image we have of Jesus is as a younger man. I have already lived 25 years longer than Jesus, and He was young enough to be my kid when He was crucified. I have to yield to a younger man - Jesus.
Fallen men are in COMPETITION with every other man in this world. When facing Christ we have met our master and superior in a man. We have no power against, over or apart from this other man.
I have neither been systematic nor thorough in this (that I am writing) - but I am only spurring the discussion forward, because there is here one of those frightful issues that haunt us (men) in the darker corners of our insecurities. The whole thing of Christ as HUSBAND and BRIDEGROOM utterly threatens us men - and I believe it is entirely purposeful (by God)- and it is in this "threat" that men live under AND WOMEN DO NOT that Christianity makes men and women finally equal where it actually matters - in all the ultimates.
There is some kind of 'loss of face' involved with every man that comes to Christ, that women never feel. Women will or may feel a genuine shame over their sins - a sort of 'unworthiness' as a bride to such a perfect and marvelous Groom - but they do not feel essentially vanquished by the superior power of Christ, like us men do. Since Christ is a man - He has not only saved us, but He has also essentially vanquished us by force and we and are merely at His mercy now - not only in respect to our sins - but also in respect to our UNIVERSAL ATTEMPT to vanguish or overcome or be superior to ALL OTHER MEN (including Him).
THUSLY (again) I say - that IN THE PERSONAL REALITY of living the Christian life, men and women are 100% equal everywhere it really matters. Men are forced into a self-repudiating AND EMASCULATING conflict that never ends (in this life) by being Christians, and we are always meeting the Man who is better than us and Who felt mercifully sorry for our pitiful boastful, and aggressive-while-puny failed selves and, and Who MERCIFULLY saved us from what we could not save ourselves from. Women know of no such conflict.
I am not and cannot be "the bride of Christ" - and with that statement alone, I am alienated and pushed out of the picture. I become a "bystander" - a mere "friend of the bridegroom" - NOT "the star" - not the main feature; not the hero; but only an assistant to the "Real Man in the room".
I also do not think we men are ALLOWED TO INQUIRE into the exact nature of the woman's feeling for Christ. It is none of our business - and we are INCAPABLE OF COMPETING with Christ, anyway. Christ OUGHT TO have "the wife" and we lost the competition for the woman's respect and affection immediately. It is part of my relationship with my wife, that I know, that I am a "failed Messiah" in her sight, every second. The only way I retain ANY "dignity" as a husband is to knowingly acknowledge that I am just the Levirate Brother - "the stand in" for my perished Senior Brother and that my job is to protect and look out for HIS wife and HIS kids.
I do not want to know ANYTHING about how ANY woman imagines her "bride relationship" to Christ. I believe this IS one of those matters that amounts "words not lawful to be uttered". God well knew that He was setting all of us men up to stumble and trip over the bride-and-groom image of The Church-and-Christ. I WILL NOT (refuse) to COMPETE WITH CHRIST over and for my wife's respect and affections - it is a wasted and stupid effort because I ALREADY LOST.
This is also connected (I am sure) to the fact that in this life and world, the NT suggests celibacy as a naturally higher spiritual state for both men and women over marriage.
The truth shall (always) make us (feel) free.
3 John 2
SOMEONE ASKED:
[FONT="]Can anybody give me one single example in the Bible (I'm being serious, not facetious) of Jesus being our " lover"? I don't mean the bride/bridegroom stuff....I mean an example of Jesus as physical intimate....okay, I'll say it.....sexual.... lover. [/FONT]
[FONT="]My mind is REELING with the implications. I've read this about 5 times now, clear through. I have more thoughts than I could even hope to put down on e-paper right now, about this.[/FONT]
[FONT="]I'm not surprised by this. I'm stunned by it...but not surprised. [/FONT]
REPLY:
This is a fascinating subject - as long as you can automatically refuse and reject the explicitly sexual images that threaten to offend. What IS SEXUAL SIN now will be SIN forever. Start with that and we all feel better.
As a partial introduction - every woman represents The Church and every man represents Christ. The relationship between the man and woman is a parody of the relationship between Christ and The Church. The Bible says this more than once and in more than one way. As a doctrinal proposition, IT CANNOT BE DENIED.
Here also is where Christianity makes for EQUALITY between men and women - BECAUSE, there mere fact of Christ lingering as "the ultimate bridegroom" emasculates every man. Men simply cannot relate to Christ in the way women do. Women automatically have a more relaxed and intimate sense of "personalness" with Christ's person and Lordship because there is no sexual perversion involved in their emotionally bonding to Christ. Men, on the other hand, are NOT PERMITTED to "imagine feel" this level of intimacy with Christ. We are essentially ALIENATED from Christ by the sexual sin implications. We stand removed at a distance - and must remain at that distance. NOT ONLY THAT - but Christ Jesus is the COMPETITION for us men to win and own the loyalty of the woman - so that Christ is a threat to us men. We are endlessly being compared to Christ BY THE WOMEN and (we are) FAILING AND FAILING AND FAILING.
I believe that the Levirate law of the OT where the "brother" must raise up "seed" for his deceased brother is fulfilled in every Christian husband. We are all the "2nd best" (after Christ) and we are mere stand-ins for Christ, who has perished from the earth. We are supposed to "raise up seed" for "our brother's house" - not for our own.
Jesus NEVER said "Call no woman 'mother' upon the earth. Even as dads, we men are put off, isolated and rejected. We are neither first choice as husband nor as dad. NO WOMAN CAN ever understand how a man relates to, believes in, trusts in and hopes in Christ. Neither can us men ever understand how a woman relates to, trusts in, loves and submits to Christ. To even try and understand what being the other sex is like is a sin of perversion - I only know where the limits are, and I am allowed to point those out.
Christianity is more automatically appealing to women than to men - because there is nothing essentially unnatural about a woman longing for Christ with exceeding passion - while it is abnormal and essentially perverted for men to do so. THAT IS WHY you will notice MORE WOMEN sitting in the Christian synagogues then men - especially SINGLE OR WIDOWED women.
I actually (think I) see the PRACTICAL AND ACTUAL EQUALITY that really does exist between men and women in the Christian faith - as in equal access to real power and real peace. Men have to "choke and gag" a little at the embrace of Christ, because FOR US MEN, it is always a matter of simply submitting as an INFERIOR MAN to another man. Women face no such automatic and endlessly-being-repeated repudiation-of-the-self in submitting to Christ. Christ is auotmatically the "True Prince Charming" who rushes in to rescue her from the dragon. We men are all FAILED "Prince Charmings".
This illustrates what I mean - the women (figuratively-imaginatively) may sit right at Christ's feet and hold his hand while looking adoringly into His face and asking questions. Men (figuratively-imaginatively) MUST stop at some distance away and bow with their face to the ground in submission to Christ as Lord and Master. We cannot imagine Christ as "husband" in any sort of way without horrifying sin. We men are INNATELY less emotionally intimate in our connection with Christ. There is a barrier in front of us that simply does not exist for the women.
IT WOULD BE SO MUCH EASIER for us men if we could regard Christ ONLY as a "father figure" - then we could approach Him as protector and parental authority - but Jesus advertises Himself to us men and you sisters as "Brother" - and that makes Him in a clear sense a amn on our own level. Since we have to regard Christ as "Brother", we men cannot take emotional shelter from the threat to our independence and "manliness" by thinking of Jesus only as a "dad" - and then, the last image we have of Jesus is as a younger man. I have already lived 25 years longer than Jesus, and He was young enough to be my kid when He was crucified. I have to yield to a younger man - Jesus.
Fallen men are in COMPETITION with every other man in this world. When facing Christ we have met our master and superior in a man. We have no power against, over or apart from this other man.
I have neither been systematic nor thorough in this (that I am writing) - but I am only spurring the discussion forward, because there is here one of those frightful issues that haunt us (men) in the darker corners of our insecurities. The whole thing of Christ as HUSBAND and BRIDEGROOM utterly threatens us men - and I believe it is entirely purposeful (by God)- and it is in this "threat" that men live under AND WOMEN DO NOT that Christianity makes men and women finally equal where it actually matters - in all the ultimates.
There is some kind of 'loss of face' involved with every man that comes to Christ, that women never feel. Women will or may feel a genuine shame over their sins - a sort of 'unworthiness' as a bride to such a perfect and marvelous Groom - but they do not feel essentially vanquished by the superior power of Christ, like us men do. Since Christ is a man - He has not only saved us, but He has also essentially vanquished us by force and we and are merely at His mercy now - not only in respect to our sins - but also in respect to our UNIVERSAL ATTEMPT to vanguish or overcome or be superior to ALL OTHER MEN (including Him).
THUSLY (again) I say - that IN THE PERSONAL REALITY of living the Christian life, men and women are 100% equal everywhere it really matters. Men are forced into a self-repudiating AND EMASCULATING conflict that never ends (in this life) by being Christians, and we are always meeting the Man who is better than us and Who felt mercifully sorry for our pitiful boastful, and aggressive-while-puny failed selves and, and Who MERCIFULLY saved us from what we could not save ourselves from. Women know of no such conflict.
I am not and cannot be "the bride of Christ" - and with that statement alone, I am alienated and pushed out of the picture. I become a "bystander" - a mere "friend of the bridegroom" - NOT "the star" - not the main feature; not the hero; but only an assistant to the "Real Man in the room".
I also do not think we men are ALLOWED TO INQUIRE into the exact nature of the woman's feeling for Christ. It is none of our business - and we are INCAPABLE OF COMPETING with Christ, anyway. Christ OUGHT TO have "the wife" and we lost the competition for the woman's respect and affection immediately. It is part of my relationship with my wife, that I know, that I am a "failed Messiah" in her sight, every second. The only way I retain ANY "dignity" as a husband is to knowingly acknowledge that I am just the Levirate Brother - "the stand in" for my perished Senior Brother and that my job is to protect and look out for HIS wife and HIS kids.
I do not want to know ANYTHING about how ANY woman imagines her "bride relationship" to Christ. I believe this IS one of those matters that amounts "words not lawful to be uttered". God well knew that He was setting all of us men up to stumble and trip over the bride-and-groom image of The Church-and-Christ. I WILL NOT (refuse) to COMPETE WITH CHRIST over and for my wife's respect and affections - it is a wasted and stupid effort because I ALREADY LOST.
This is also connected (I am sure) to the fact that in this life and world, the NT suggests celibacy as a naturally higher spiritual state for both men and women over marriage.
The truth shall (always) make us (feel) free.
3 John 2