Replacement Theory. Is the Church the new Israel??

Shwagga · Jan 28, 2012

To be perfectly honest with you, you already demonstrated that you have a lot of misconceptions of early church history and early heresies. For example Gnosticism and Marcionism and both rejected the "God of the Old Testament" as a tyrant and a hateful God. They completely rejected the Hebrew Bible. How could you ever, in a million years draw a parallel between these two groups and Zionists? Zionists who love and revere the Hebrew scriptures and not only that, but believe them and understand that the God of the Hebrew scriptures does not lie! I could draw an ironic parallel to your parallel, but I'll withdraw in hope you'll respond to my earlier post.

Shwagga · Jan 28, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

to add even to this

Paul continues in romans 11:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable

Is the church our enemy for the sake of the Gospel?

Great point!

Zilla64007 · Jan 28, 2012

i said its roots come from Marcionism/Gnosticism.
your study if church history is flawed, because you refuse to admit that Dispensationalism/Christian Zionism has no support either Biblically, or historically, for it it were Biblical, the early church would of easily seen it in the Bible... they had the Bible we have today... oh but guess what, they had something no Dispensationalist or Christian Zionist has: oral tradition from the Apostles.

Shwagga · Jan 28, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

What is ironic here is that we're the ones quoting Scriptures giving a Biblical basis for our case and you're quoting church fathers! Not only that, but misrepresenting entire groups of people both ancient and modern.

Zilla64007 · Jan 28, 2012

look who's blind here.

I've ALREADY quoted scripture.
I have also quoted teachers who were directly taught by the apostles to back up what I believe... and those teachers, the same teachers, who were taught by those apostles, say that you are the heretic, not me.

the only ones who are truly blind are those who willingly puff up Israel, and not Christ.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 28, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

No the one who is blind is the one who can not answer questions about posted scripture.

Just because you took some scripture out of context when it concerns Gods promise to abraham Issac and jacob, vs Gods promise to abraham in his spiritual seed, which are two different and separate promises. does not mean you are right, or you have proven your point

your refusal to respond to romans 11 and Ez 37 speaks volumes. Of course thats ok. i would not answer either, because it would contradict my own belief (if I believed as you do!)

we are also not puffing Isreal up. Paul said Isreal is my enemy right now. I believe him, how can that be puffing them up?

Zilla64007 · Jan 28, 2012

Romans 11 says we are grafted into the root... the root is not Israel... the root is CHRIST.

Ezekiel 37...
nothing in this says that the fleshly Israel is going to be a nation again... it either talks about the resurrection of the dead (premillennilaism), or a symbolic reference to being born again (amillennialism)... I'm open to either one of these interpretations, but when I read Ezekiel 37, nothing lead me to take it literally... besides, most apostolic literature is symbolic in nature. It could be taken as both of them.

Olivet Discourse has a very good piece on the chapter..
OlivetDiscourse.com - The Restoration and Conversion of the Jews

i see nothing, though, that speaks of what Christian Zionism teaches.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 28, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

Nice try. but that is not what we asked!

try reading again

sorry, it talks about niether. it talks about the northern and southern tribes of Isreal who are dispersed among the gentile nations because of her sin being returned to her land and restored. Nothing spiritual can be taken out of this.

nice try.

but thats ok.. people who read can see the truth.

Zilla64007 · Jan 28, 2012

God never replaced Israel with the church.
God fulfilled Israel through the church.

RachelBibleStudent · Jan 28, 2012

i don't even consider this to be 'replacement' theology...because nothing is being replaced...

israel and the church have -always- been the same thing...

israel has -always- consisted of believing descendants of jacob...with the unbelieving descendants of jacob being excluded from the community...and israel had always included believing gentiles too...

the church -still- includes believing gentiles...and believing descendants of jacob...and still excludes unbelieving descendants of jacob...

eternally-gratefull · Jan 29, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

Well I guess that means that blindness in part of the church has happened until the time of the gentiles is complete. then finally all the church will be saved. And by the way, they church is my enemy because of the gospel.

Either that, or scripture is a lie. I guess I can use just throw it away, at least anything written by Paul, because he never got on the wagon that the church fulfilled Israel, and the physical promised made to Israel now belong to the church.

Crossfire · Jan 29, 2012

I was always under the assumption that both Justin Martyr ans Ireanaeus were both historical premillennialists.

AnandaHya · Jan 29, 2012

I don't understand where people just off on replacing the words and thinking that is what another is saying.

1. Ezekial 37 was fulfilled when the SECOND temple was built and the people were brought back from captivity.

I think its in Ezra about how ALL the tribes are represented and everyone of Jewish descent is called to gather there.

as for the verses about being blind until the time of gentiles is fulfilled. it is referring to the time in the first century when if they saw they would not have cruxified Christ and would have accepted His Gospel. they would have repented and the second temple might not have been razed to the ground. However God planned for the earthly temple to be destroyed and for people to worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

He knew if there was an Earthly temple there would be pretenders and antichrist who did it only in form and not in spirit or in truth. the time of the gentiles have been fulfilled, Christ was cruxified and the temple has been destroyed. Daniel 9 has been completed. No more need for temple or for the Jewish people to be blinded. They have the same choice that all people do: Accept or reject Christ. their blindness is not from God but from their own hearts. We should pray that the Holy Spirit will move and transform their hearts and minds. not advocate there is another way besides Jesus to God.

now it is time for the Bride of Christ to be one and grow through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, grafted and natural branches growing together.

Its sad that people want to build that temple again even when they know that there will be false worship in it.

Crossfire · Jan 29, 2012

[FONT=&quot]A BRIEF HISTORY OF EARLY PREMILLENNIALISM[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BY DR. THOMAS ICE[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Premillennialisin is so clearly taught in Revelation 19 and 20 that it is hard to understand how anyone can think otherwise without realizing honestly that they are going against the Biblical text. A kingdom reign of the Messiah was just as clearly taught in the Old Testament. Jesus and His Scripture-writing disciples also support the notion of an earthly kingdom headed by the Messiah. Such clearness in the Bible provides the likely reason why the early church fathers who spoke on this matter were all premillennialists.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]THE FIRST PREMILLENNIAIJSTS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The first premillennialists were those who received God's revelation and wrote it down in the Bible. Eusebius tells us that one of the earliest church fathers that had heard the Apostle John and others who had known the Lord and His Apostles was Papias (AD 60-130), the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor. Papias taught "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth." (1) Irenaeus (AD 130-202) tells us that Papias "related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times" (the Millennium) in book 4 of Papias' writings, which are no longer extant, except a few fragments. Papias is recorded as saying: "there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth." (2) Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), bishop of Smyrna, is also said to have been a premillennialist. (3) The Epistle of Barnabas[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (written between AD 120-150) presents the common belief that "in six thousand years, all things will be finished ....then shall He truly rest on the seventh day." The writer speaks of the second coming of Christ with the clear implication that He will setup the thousand year kingdom on earth, followed by the eighth day or the eternal state. (4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) in his Dialogue With Trypho c. AD 140, a Jewish man, made the following premillennial statement: "But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare." (5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Justin considered premillennialism an aspect of orthodoxy in his day, "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." (6)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]IRENAEUS AND TERTULLIAN[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Two of the greatest ante-Nicene fathers were Irenaeus and Tertullian (AD 160-230). Irenaeus grew up in Asia Minor and was discipled by Polycarp, who knew the Apostle John. Irenaeus had a very extensive view of Bible prophecy in his last five chapters of Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which were suppressed throughout the Middle Ages by anti-premillennialists and rediscovered in 1571. (7)The restoration of a more literal interpretation and reading of the early church fathers by many post-Reformationists led to a revival of premillennialism in the early 1600s. (8) Irenaeus' writings played a key role because of their clear premillennial statements. "John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first 'resurrection of the just,' and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth," he says, "and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]." (9) Again, Irenaeus declares, "But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom." (10)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"RIGHT-MINDED CHRISTIANS...ARE ASSURED THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND A THOUSAND YEARS IN JERUSALEM, WHICH WILL THEN BE BUILT ADORNED, AND ENLARGED, AS THE PROPHETS EZEKIEL AND ISAIAH AND OTHERS DECLARE." -- JUSTIN MARTYR[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tertullian, who gave us the Latin word "Trinity" was also a strong premillennialist. He makes his premillennialism clear when he says the following: "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld." (11)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]OTHER EARLY PREMILLENNIALISTS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Another outstanding premillennialist of the early church was Lactantius (AD 250-330) of North Africa. He wrote an important defense of Christianity that was the first systematic expression of Christianity called The Divine Institutes, which included a section on prophecy. Lactantius said: "But when the thousand years shall be completed, the world shall he renewed by God, and the heavens shall be folded together, and the earth shall be changed, and God shall transform men into the similitude of angels, and they shall be white as snow; and they shall always be employed in the sight of the Almighty, and shall make offerings to their Lord, and serve Him for ever." (12)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Virtually everyone who wrote on this topic for the first two to three hundred years of the church's history was a Millennialist. The list would include individuals like: Clement of Rome, who wrote a letter to an early church around AD 95; (13) Ignatius of Antioch, who is said to have been a disciple of the Apostles John and Peter. Early church tradition tells us that he was thrown to lions in AD 107); 14) Theophilus of Antioch (AD 115-181), who wrote one of the first accounts of primitive church history; (15) Tatian of Assyria, who died in AD 167; Melito, Bishop of Sardis, who died in AD 170; Clemens Alexandrinus, who was a contemporary of Justin Martyr; Hippolytus, a disciple of Irenaeus was martyred in AD 230 for his faith. Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau who died in AD 303; Methodius, Bishop of Tyre died in AD 311; an Egyptian bishop named Nepos of the third century; Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage was martyred in AD 258; and Commodians, a Christian historian, who wrote about AD 250. (16) Others could be added to the list. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"BUT WE DO CONFESS THAT A KINGDOM IS PROMISED TO US ON EARTH, ALTHOUGH BEFORE HEAVEN, ONLY IN ANOTHER STATE OF EXISTENCE..." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-- Tertullian (c. 155-230) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CONCLUSION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is generally recognized within the scholarly world of early church historians that premillennialism was the most widely held view of the earliest church tradition. One of the leading experts on the doctrine of the early church is J. N. D. Kelly, who says, "millenarianism, or the theory that the returned Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years came to find increasing support among Christian teachers...This millenarian, or 'chiliastic' doctrine was widely popular at this time." (17) "The great theologians who followed the Apologists, lrenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus, were primarily concerned to defend the traditional eschatological scheme against Gnosticism," explains Kelly. "They are all exponents of millenarianism." (18)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Philip Schaff, the dean of American church historians and himself a postrnillennialist, provided the following summary of the early church's view of the millennium: "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius." (19) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]European scholar and church historian, Adolph Harnack echoes Schaff and tells us, "First in point of time came the faith in the nearness of Christ's second advent and the establishing of His reign of glory on the earth. Indeed it appears so early that it might be questioned whether it ought not to he regarded as an essential part of the Christian religion ." (20)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Bible is the sole basis from which a believer in Christ should learn what is true. What others have believed down through church history is really not the issue. However, when we believe the Bible teaches a particular doctrine, it is not surprising that others who ha' read the Bible see the same thing. This is exactly what we find in the early church in regards to premillennialism before allegorical interpretation began to dominate. Maranatha[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notes:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. Papias as quoted in Eusebius Ecclesiastical History[/FONT][FONT=&quot], II vol., (Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1926) Vol 1. p.297[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Papias, Fragments chapter 6.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Irenaeus Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot] book 5, chapter 22, paragraphs 3-4.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 The Epistle of Barrettes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], chapter 15.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Justin Martyr Dialogue With Trypho[/FONT][FONT=&quot], chapter 80[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Justin Martyr, Dialogue[/FONT][FONT=&quot], chapter 81.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Wilder B. Watlis, "Reflections on the History of Premillennial Thought," in A. Laird Harris. Smee-Hiva Quek & Robert Vannoy, editors, Interpretation & History: Essays in honour of Allen A. MacRae[/FONT][FONT=&quot], (Singapore: Christian Life Publishers. 1986), p.228[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Jeffrey K. Joe. Heaven Upon Earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot], Joseph Mede (1586-1638) and the Legacy of Millenarianism[/FONT][FONT=&quot], (Dordrecht, Holland' Springer), 2006, pp. 110-113[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Irenaeus, Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 5, chapter 36, paragraph 3.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Irenaeus, Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 5 chapter 30, paragraph 4.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Tertullian, Against Marcion[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 3 chapter 25. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Lactantius, The Divine Institutes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 7, chapter 26 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Jesse Forest Silver, The Lord's Return (New York: Fleming H Revet), 1914, pp 58-59.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 Silver. The Lord's Return[/FONT][FONT=&quot], p. 60.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 Silver, The Lord's Return[/FONT][FONT=&quot], p 62,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Silver, The Lord's Return[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. PIP 6668.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 J. N. D. Kelly. Early Christian Doctrines[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (San Francisco Harper & Row, 1978). p.465.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines[/FONT][FONT=&quot], pp. 467 & 469.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church[/FONT][FONT=&quot], VIII vols. (Grand Rapids. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1973), vol. II, p. 614[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Adolph Hamack, "Millennium," The Encyclopedia Britannica, 9th edition (New York Charles Scribner's Sons. 1883), vol. XVI p. 314 cited in Ronald E. Showers. There Really ls a Difference[/FONT][FONT=&quot], (Bellmawr, NJ, The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, 1990), p. 117[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

eternally-gratefull · Jan 29, 2012

AnandaHya said:

I don't understand when people read words of God and totally disregard them as nonsense!

1. Only Judah was brought back. And only from babylon.
2. The northern kingdom, which was called Isreal. Was scattered by Syriah, and has not since been in her land
3. Ez prophesies that both kingdoms will be restored and made one nation again, This has not happened!.
4. JUDAH returned. But never controlled the land.

Ezekiel states.

21 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations (not just babylon, all nations) where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; (They never had one king. They were still under Gentile rule) and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. (to this day this has not happened) 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions;(still unfulfilled) but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. (They are still scattered because of their sin in accordance with lev 26 to this day) And they will be My people, and I will be their God. (Spoken of by Paul in roms 11)

The only people who returned were the people who was carried away from Babylon. Which would be two tribes (judah and Benajamin) and the levites where were with them.

Ezra 1:
5 Then the heads of the fathers’ houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem. 6 And all those who were around them encouraged them with articles of silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with precious things, besides all that was willingly offered.

Ezra 2:
2 Now[a] these are the people of the province who came back from the captivity, of those who had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away to Babylon, (Babylon, not nations, Babylon took only the lower kingdom. Syria took the northern kingdom and the ten tribes with hit. they did not return this time, they have never returned.) and who returned to Jerusalem and Judah, everyone to his own city. (Again only the lower nation (judah) returned. the northern kingdom did not return this time)

And your refusing to see that they did not give up their idols, They did not give up their sin, And they did not have one king. ALL of which the prophesy of Ezekail said they would.

The time of the gentile IS THE CHURCH. There was no time of the gentile before the church was formed. It was still the time of Isreal. Why would Paul call them our enemy, but say they also must be loved because of thier election? Why would paul say when this time is completed they would be restored? The time of the gentiles is now. Not during Christ. Paul was not sent to the gentiles until after Christ left.

This makes no sense. If the bible says something is going to happen who are we to argue against it? Who said the temple being rebuilt is commanded by God. they are still in sin. They still have not accepted their messiah, they are still our enemy. It is the abomination of desolation, and great time of Jacobs trouble which causes the nation to call out to God. God uses this to turn their hearts to him, and they finally see, the very one they crucified was their messiah. At this time, they will all repent. As lev 26 says, they will then be returned to their land from the places they have been scattered because of their sin. God will be thier God, and they will be his people. All one has to do is study and they will see this is clear as day!

Amen. But as Paul said, even though Israel (the natural branch) was grafted out. and the gentile was grafted in. There will be a day when the gentile branch dies, and the natural branch is restored. and "all Israel will be saved"

I can't throw out half of scripture to believe in a replacement theology.

Yes it is sad. It is sad they still want to do it. They have everything in place. all they need is the place to build it. they are fighting for that now.

God is not going to save them because the rebuild it. the events of the world which happen after (the abomination and great tribulation) God uses to bring them back.

God said it would happen. forgive me if I refuse to not go with what God says.

Zilla64007 · Jan 29, 2012

Crossfire said:

[FONT=&quot]A BRIEF HISTORY OF EARLY PREMILLENNIALISM[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BY DR. THOMAS ICE[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Premillennialisin is so clearly taught in Revelation 19 and 20 that it is hard to understand how anyone can think otherwise without realizing honestly that they are going against the Biblical text. A kingdom reign of the Messiah was just as clearly taught in the Old Testament. Jesus and His Scripture-writing disciples also support the notion of an earthly kingdom headed by the Messiah. Such clearness in the Bible provides the likely reason why the early church fathers who spoke on this matter were all premillennialists.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]THE FIRST PREMILLENNIAIJSTS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The first premillennialists were those who received God's revelation and wrote it down in the Bible. Eusebius tells us that one of the earliest church fathers that had heard the Apostle John and others who had known the Lord and His Apostles was Papias (AD 60-130), the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor. Papias taught "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth." (1) Irenaeus (AD 130-202) tells us that Papias "related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times" (the Millennium) in book 4 of Papias' writings, which are no longer extant, except a few fragments. Papias is recorded as saying: "there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth." (2) Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), bishop of Smyrna, is also said to have been a premillennialist. (3) The Epistle of Barnabas[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (written between AD 120-150) presents the common belief that "in six thousand years, all things will be finished ....then shall He truly rest on the seventh day." The writer speaks of the second coming of Christ with the clear implication that He will setup the thousand year kingdom on earth, followed by the eighth day or the eternal state. (4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) in his Dialogue With Trypho c. AD 140, a Jewish man, made the following premillennial statement: "But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare." (5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Justin considered premillennialism an aspect of orthodoxy in his day, "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." (6)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]IRENAEUS AND TERTULLIAN[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Two of the greatest ante-Nicene fathers were Irenaeus and Tertullian (AD 160-230). Irenaeus grew up in Asia Minor and was discipled by Polycarp, who knew the Apostle John. Irenaeus had a very extensive view of Bible prophecy in his last five chapters of Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which were suppressed throughout the Middle Ages by anti-premillennialists and rediscovered in 1571. (7)The restoration of a more literal interpretation and reading of the early church fathers by many post-Reformationists led to a revival of premillennialism in the early 1600s. (8) Irenaeus' writings played a key role because of their clear premillennial statements. "John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first 'resurrection of the just,' and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth," he says, "and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]." (9) Again, Irenaeus declares, "But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom." (10)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"RIGHT-MINDED CHRISTIANS...ARE ASSURED THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND A THOUSAND YEARS IN JERUSALEM, WHICH WILL THEN BE BUILT ADORNED, AND ENLARGED, AS THE PROPHETS EZEKIEL AND ISAIAH AND OTHERS DECLARE." -- JUSTIN MARTYR[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tertullian, who gave us the Latin word "Trinity" was also a strong premillennialist. He makes his premillennialism clear when he says the following: "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld." (11)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]OTHER EARLY PREMILLENNIALISTS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Another outstanding premillennialist of the early church was Lactantius (AD 250-330) of North Africa. He wrote an important defense of Christianity that was the first systematic expression of Christianity called The Divine Institutes, which included a section on prophecy. Lactantius said: "But when the thousand years shall be completed, the world shall he renewed by God, and the heavens shall be folded together, and the earth shall be changed, and God shall transform men into the similitude of angels, and they shall be white as snow; and they shall always be employed in the sight of the Almighty, and shall make offerings to their Lord, and serve Him for ever." (12)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Virtually everyone who wrote on this topic for the first two to three hundred years of the church's history was a Millennialist. The list would include individuals like: Clement of Rome, who wrote a letter to an early church around AD 95; (13) Ignatius of Antioch, who is said to have been a disciple of the Apostles John and Peter. Early church tradition tells us that he was thrown to lions in AD 107); 14) Theophilus of Antioch (AD 115-181), who wrote one of the first accounts of primitive church history; (15) Tatian of Assyria, who died in AD 167; Melito, Bishop of Sardis, who died in AD 170; Clemens Alexandrinus, who was a contemporary of Justin Martyr; Hippolytus, a disciple of Irenaeus was martyred in AD 230 for his faith. Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau who died in AD 303; Methodius, Bishop of Tyre died in AD 311; an Egyptian bishop named Nepos of the third century; Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage was martyred in AD 258; and Commodians, a Christian historian, who wrote about AD 250. (16) Others could be added to the list. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"BUT WE DO CONFESS THAT A KINGDOM IS PROMISED TO US ON EARTH, ALTHOUGH BEFORE HEAVEN, ONLY IN ANOTHER STATE OF EXISTENCE..." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-- Tertullian (c. 155-230) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CONCLUSION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is generally recognized within the scholarly world of early church historians that premillennialism was the most widely held view of the earliest church tradition. One of the leading experts on the doctrine of the early church is J. N. D. Kelly, who says, "millenarianism, or the theory that the returned Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years came to find increasing support among Christian teachers...This millenarian, or 'chiliastic' doctrine was widely popular at this time." (17) "The great theologians who followed the Apologists, lrenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus, were primarily concerned to defend the traditional eschatological scheme against Gnosticism," explains Kelly. "They are all exponents of millenarianism." (18)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Philip Schaff, the dean of American church historians and himself a postrnillennialist, provided the following summary of the early church's view of the millennium: "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius." (19) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]European scholar and church historian, Adolph Harnack echoes Schaff and tells us, "First in point of time came the faith in the nearness of Christ's second advent and the establishing of His reign of glory on the earth. Indeed it appears so early that it might be questioned whether it ought not to he regarded as an essential part of the Christian religion ." (20)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Bible is the sole basis from which a believer in Christ should learn what is true. What others have believed down through church history is really not the issue. However, when we believe the Bible teaches a particular doctrine, it is not surprising that others who ha' read the Bible see the same thing. This is exactly what we find in the early church in regards to premillennialism before allegorical interpretation began to dominate. Maranatha[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notes:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. Papias as quoted in Eusebius Ecclesiastical History[/FONT][FONT=&quot], II vol., (Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1926) Vol 1. p.297[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Papias, Fragments chapter 6.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Irenaeus Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot] book 5, chapter 22, paragraphs 3-4.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 The Epistle of Barrettes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], chapter 15.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Justin Martyr Dialogue With Trypho[/FONT][FONT=&quot], chapter 80[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Justin Martyr, Dialogue[/FONT][FONT=&quot], chapter 81.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Wilder B. Watlis, "Reflections on the History of Premillennial Thought," in A. Laird Harris. Smee-Hiva Quek & Robert Vannoy, editors, Interpretation & History: Essays in honour of Allen A. MacRae[/FONT][FONT=&quot], (Singapore: Christian Life Publishers. 1986), p.228[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Jeffrey K. Joe. Heaven Upon Earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot], Joseph Mede (1586-1638) and the Legacy of Millenarianism[/FONT][FONT=&quot], (Dordrecht, Holland' Springer), 2006, pp. 110-113[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Irenaeus, Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 5, chapter 36, paragraph 3.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Irenaeus, Against Heresies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 5 chapter 30, paragraph 4.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Tertullian, Against Marcion[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 3 chapter 25. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Lactantius, The Divine Institutes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], book 7, chapter 26 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Jesse Forest Silver, The Lord's Return (New York: Fleming H Revet), 1914, pp 58-59.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 Silver. The Lord's Return[/FONT][FONT=&quot], p. 60.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 Silver, The Lord's Return[/FONT][FONT=&quot], p 62,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Silver, The Lord's Return[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. PIP 6668.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 J. N. D. Kelly. Early Christian Doctrines[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (San Francisco Harper & Row, 1978). p.465.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines[/FONT][FONT=&quot], pp. 467 & 469.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church[/FONT][FONT=&quot], VIII vols. (Grand Rapids. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1973), vol. II, p. 614[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Adolph Hamack, "Millennium," The Encyclopedia Britannica, 9th edition (New York Charles Scribner's Sons. 1883), vol. XVI p. 314 cited in Ronald E. Showers. There Really ls a Difference[/FONT][FONT=&quot], (Bellmawr, NJ, The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, 1990), p. 117[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

these early church teachers were historic premillennialists, not Dispensational premillennialists, as Thomas Ice would foolishly believe.
they did believe that the Church replaced, or fulfilled, Israel.

Lifelike · Jan 29, 2012

The root is Christ and God, the natural branches are Israel, the gentiles where grafted in where Israel was removed. Paul stated that we shouldnt be puffed up though becasue we can be removed too, and the natural branches grafted back in much more easily than we were. He also states that after God has done His work in the gentiles and their nuber is complete that all Israel wil be saved. This is natural Israel receiving christ. The church is all those that believe in Christ - Jews and Gentiles, the ecclesia, people of God, and the One Man. Gods puropse is to reconcile the whole world to Himself in Christ, Jews and Gentiles, having the wall of seperation now removed in Christ, we become one man in Him before God. Jews are natural Israel, the gentiles are those that are not Israel, to specific people groups, but in God one in the spirit where there is no Jew/Greek, Male/Female. There are still males and females in the natural but in the spirit if you are male of female is of no consequence. JESUS CHRIST makes us all ONE. Brilliant God we have. AFter the final move of God upon this earth, and the number of the gentiles in complete, Jesus with restore the nation of Israel to God, and we will be one man in Him.

Forest · Feb 3, 2012

Lifelike said:

Romans 11:25.

Now I don't want you, my brothers, to start imagining things, and I must therefore share with you my knowledge of God's secret plan. It is this, that the partial insensibility which has come to Israel is only to last until the full number of the gentiles has been called in. Once this has happened, all Israel will be saved, as the Scripture says;

There shall come out of Zion the deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And this is My covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.

As far as the gospel goes, they are at present God's enemies - which is to your advantage. But as far as God's purpose in choosing is concerned, they are still beloved for their fathers' sakes. For once they are made, God does not withdraw His gifts or His callings.

AMEN!

Israel is used in the scriptures as a type of God's elect. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28.

Forest · Feb 3, 2012

mpaper345 said:

The Church is what will prosper,and is the New Israel in the sense that it will remain forever,while this earth passes away.

But salvation is of the Jews,and it is really their Church,started by Jews,and the Gentiles were brought in to that Church.

The Church could be considered the New Israel,because it is Israel that will last forever,and the Gentiles were brought in to that Church.

When the Bible says that all Israel shall be saved,this is not talking spiritual,but physical Israel,as Israel is the kingdom on earth and all Gentile nations shall fall,during the millennial reign of Christ.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power(Acts 1:6-7).

11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished(Jeremiah 30:11).

All Israel shall be saved means the physical nation of Israel,as the kingdom is restored to them,and all Gentile kingdoms will be no more,in the millennial reign of Christ.

Salvation is of the Jews,and is their covenant with God,and the Church is the Jews Church,which moved from the Old Testament to the New Testament,and the Gentiles were brought in that covenant.

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel,and had Jewish disciples,for the covenant is with the Jews,their Church,so the Church could be considered the New Israel,as far as a better covenant that lasts forever.

The covenant is not with the Gentiles,but they were brought in to the covenant with the Jews.

The covenant is with the Gentiles,if they accept the covenant that is with the Jews.

Israel is a type of God's elect. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28.

Search

Replacement Theory. Is the Church the new Israel??

Shwagga

Guest

Shwagga

Guest

Zilla64007

Banned

Shwagga

Guest

Zilla64007

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Zilla64007

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Zilla64007

Banned

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Crossfire

Guest

AnandaHya

Guest

Crossfire

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Zilla64007

Banned

Lifelike

Guest

Forest

Guest

Forest

Guest