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S
My friend, you are out-of-hand dismissing what 2 Tim. 3:14-17 says and not dealing with it outright. Paul's doctrine is supplementary to the Hebrew Bible referenced in these verses, not replacing it. If all Timothy needed was Paul's doctrine and gospel message he presented, then there is no need for this entire passage. But no, Paul says "You know my doctrine and the gospel message I've brought, but also study the Holy Scriptures [Hebrew Bible] for correction, equipping for all good works, etc.!"
Let's handle the passage given. I've worked the other passages you brought from 2 Tim. into my understanding of the letter, including 2 Tim. 3:14-17. Can you do the same?
Simple question: When Paul says, "Holy Scriptures" and "All Scripture," to what is he referring?
Let's handle the passage given. I've worked the other passages you brought from 2 Tim. into my understanding of the letter, including 2 Tim. 3:14-17. Can you do the same?
Simple question: When Paul says, "Holy Scriptures" and "All Scripture," to what is he referring?
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V
Got a better one:
James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96
James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96
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V
God tells us in His Word that our righteousness is as filthy rags. If the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not evident in us, self-righteousness is at work. If others can not see love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, meekness and self-control in us, then our flesh is at work in us.
Galatians 5 KJV
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Galatians 5 Living Bible
1 So Christ has made us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get all tied up again in the chains of slavery to Jewish laws and ceremonies.
2 Listen to me, for this is serious: if you are counting on circumcision and keeping the Jewish laws to make you right with God, then Christ cannot save you.
3 I’ll say it again. Anyone trying to find favor with God by being circumcised must always obey every other Jewish law or perish.
4 Christ is useless to you if you are counting on clearing your debt to God by keeping those laws; you are lost from God’s grace.
5 But we by the help of the Holy Spirit are counting on Christ’s death to clear away our sins and make us right with God.
6 And we to whom Christ has given eternal life don’t need to worry about whether we have been circumcised or not, or whether we are obeying the Jewish ceremonies or not; for all we need is faith working through love.
7 You were getting along so well. Who has interfered with you to hold you back from following the truth?
8 It certainly isn’t God who has done it, for he is the one who has called you to freedom in Christ.
9 But it takes only one wrong person among you to infect all the others.
10 I am trusting the Lord to bring you back to believing as I do about these things. God will deal with that person, whoever he is, who has been troubling and confusing you.
11 Some people even say that I myself am preaching that circumcision and Jewish laws are necessary to the plan of salvation. Well, if I preached that, I would be persecuted no more—for that message doesn’t offend anyone. The fact that I am still being persecuted proves that I am still preaching salvation through faith in the cross of Christ alone.
12 I only wish these teachers who want you to cut yourselves by being circumcised would cut themselves off from you and leave you alone!
13 For, dear brothers, you have been given freedom: not freedom to do wrong, but freedom to love and serve each other.
14 For the whole Law can be summed up in this one command: “Love others as you love yourself.”
15 But if instead of showing love among yourselves you are always critical and catty, watch out! Beware of ruining each other.
16 I advise you to obey only the Holy Spirit’s instructions. He will tell you where to go and what to do, and then you won’t always be doing the wrong things your evil nature wants you to.
17 For we naturally love to do evil things that are just the opposite from the things that the Holy Spirit tells us to do; and the good things we want to do when the Spirit has his way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures.
18 When you are guided by the Holy Spirit, you need no longer force yourself to obey Jewish laws.
19 But when you follow your own wrong inclinations, your lives will produce these evil results: impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure,
20 idolatry, spiritism (that is, encouraging the activity of demons), hatred and fighting, jealousy and anger, constant effort to get the best for yourself, complaints and criticisms, the feeling that everyone else is wrong except those in your own little group—and there will be wrong doctrine,
21 envy, murder, drunkenness, wild parties, and all that sort of thing. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control; and here there is no conflict with Jewish laws.
24 Those who belong to Christ have nailed their natural evil desires to his cross and crucified them there.
25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit’s power, let us follow the Holy Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.
26 Then we won’t need to look for honors and popularity, which lead to jealousy and hard feelings.
Galatians 5 KJV
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Galatians 5 Living Bible
1 So Christ has made us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get all tied up again in the chains of slavery to Jewish laws and ceremonies.
2 Listen to me, for this is serious: if you are counting on circumcision and keeping the Jewish laws to make you right with God, then Christ cannot save you.
3 I’ll say it again. Anyone trying to find favor with God by being circumcised must always obey every other Jewish law or perish.
4 Christ is useless to you if you are counting on clearing your debt to God by keeping those laws; you are lost from God’s grace.
5 But we by the help of the Holy Spirit are counting on Christ’s death to clear away our sins and make us right with God.
6 And we to whom Christ has given eternal life don’t need to worry about whether we have been circumcised or not, or whether we are obeying the Jewish ceremonies or not; for all we need is faith working through love.
7 You were getting along so well. Who has interfered with you to hold you back from following the truth?
8 It certainly isn’t God who has done it, for he is the one who has called you to freedom in Christ.
9 But it takes only one wrong person among you to infect all the others.
10 I am trusting the Lord to bring you back to believing as I do about these things. God will deal with that person, whoever he is, who has been troubling and confusing you.
11 Some people even say that I myself am preaching that circumcision and Jewish laws are necessary to the plan of salvation. Well, if I preached that, I would be persecuted no more—for that message doesn’t offend anyone. The fact that I am still being persecuted proves that I am still preaching salvation through faith in the cross of Christ alone.
12 I only wish these teachers who want you to cut yourselves by being circumcised would cut themselves off from you and leave you alone!
13 For, dear brothers, you have been given freedom: not freedom to do wrong, but freedom to love and serve each other.
14 For the whole Law can be summed up in this one command: “Love others as you love yourself.”
15 But if instead of showing love among yourselves you are always critical and catty, watch out! Beware of ruining each other.
16 I advise you to obey only the Holy Spirit’s instructions. He will tell you where to go and what to do, and then you won’t always be doing the wrong things your evil nature wants you to.
17 For we naturally love to do evil things that are just the opposite from the things that the Holy Spirit tells us to do; and the good things we want to do when the Spirit has his way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures.
18 When you are guided by the Holy Spirit, you need no longer force yourself to obey Jewish laws.
19 But when you follow your own wrong inclinations, your lives will produce these evil results: impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure,
20 idolatry, spiritism (that is, encouraging the activity of demons), hatred and fighting, jealousy and anger, constant effort to get the best for yourself, complaints and criticisms, the feeling that everyone else is wrong except those in your own little group—and there will be wrong doctrine,
21 envy, murder, drunkenness, wild parties, and all that sort of thing. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control; and here there is no conflict with Jewish laws.
24 Those who belong to Christ have nailed their natural evil desires to his cross and crucified them there.
25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit’s power, let us follow the Holy Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.
26 Then we won’t need to look for honors and popularity, which lead to jealousy and hard feelings.
M
No...its clear what Paul was speaking to Timothy about , he mentions HIS DOCTRINE again and again and the fact that timothy would have had access to all Pauls epistles and this was clearly at the end of Pauls ministry in context of what he is saying in the epistle...att all his letters would have been known and read even from timothys youth...and Paul makes clear to what end the study of these scriptures will produce...salvation through faith in Chirst...so in no way could any suppose Paul is telling timothy to seek salvation through the works of the law.. That's silly and would require one to ignore the rest of the New testament.
M
That's looks more reasonable...if you read what Paul is saying in 2 Timothy about where he is and the things that have happened, it has to be the end of his ministry... Att all his epistles would have been in the churches.
2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
Paul would have been in Rome at the time of this letter...which is clearly at the end of his life and mission.
2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
Paul would have been in Rome at the time of this letter...which is clearly at the end of his life and mission.
V
Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches. Jesus gives the water of life to the branches, Jesus is the light to the branches, Jesus bears the fruit in the branches, Jesus does the pruning of the branches, Jesus gets rid of the worthless branches. Jesus gets ALL the glory! \
/
Is the Lord saying to us, "All of you branches need to find water for yourselves, find light for yourselves, bear fruit of yourselves, prune yourselves, get rid of your worthless branches."
Or is Jesus telling us, "Believe that I have redeemed you and made you mine; believe that I am the water of life, the light of life, that I am bringing forth fruit in your life, that I am leading you from glory to glory out of worldly perceptions, that I am making you more and more into my image, that I have made your sins as far from me as the east is to the west and will remember them no more."
/Is the Lord saying to us, "All of you branches need to find water for yourselves, find light for yourselves, bear fruit of yourselves, prune yourselves, get rid of your worthless branches."
Or is Jesus telling us, "Believe that I have redeemed you and made you mine; believe that I am the water of life, the light of life, that I am bringing forth fruit in your life, that I am leading you from glory to glory out of worldly perceptions, that I am making you more and more into my image, that I have made your sins as far from me as the east is to the west and will remember them no more."
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No doubt and I agree....I am a retired machinist by trade...I used to machine parts for F-16s, Harpoon Missiles, C-4 Transports and even the Space Shuttle.....I took great pleasure in my abilities to take a piece of material that was nothing but a hunk of metal, lenin phenolic, stainless steel etc. and turn it into something that could be used in a jet or missile.....I suppose at the end of the day a self righteous worker for their own salvation feels a certain satisfaction in what they have done....they wrongly attribute their righteous works to themselves much the same way I did when I machined parts for a jet or missile.....the only problem is...
1. God gave me the ability to do what I did and should recieve ALL of the praise and Glory....
A self righteous worker for salvation has the right to boast and brag about what they have done and that is where the problem lies.....The whole concept of eternal salvation, works being done, salvation etc. is based entirely upon JESUS and ALL glory goes unto the Son of God period.....
1. It is his faith
2. It is his sacrifice
3. It is his mediation
4. It is his blood
5. It is his voluntary acceptance and submission to the will of the Father
All glory goes unto the Son.......Unto Jesus the Christ and ANY works that may be done by a beiever are done by JESUS working though a living sacrifice!!!!!
1. God gave me the ability to do what I did and should recieve ALL of the praise and Glory....
A self righteous worker for salvation has the right to boast and brag about what they have done and that is where the problem lies.....The whole concept of eternal salvation, works being done, salvation etc. is based entirely upon JESUS and ALL glory goes unto the Son of God period.....
1. It is his faith
2. It is his sacrifice
3. It is his mediation
4. It is his blood
5. It is his voluntary acceptance and submission to the will of the Father
All glory goes unto the Son.......Unto Jesus the Christ and ANY works that may be done by a beiever are done by JESUS working though a living sacrifice!!!!!
No...Paul is not telling timothy to be under or to keep the law of Moses...
2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned (without hypocrisy) faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
2Ti 2:1 ¶ Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:8 ¶ Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 3:10 ¶ But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Now what doctrine do we know that Paul taught?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
This is correct. Paul is referring to the Old Testament writings. That's all there was at the time. Many don't take the time to perceive that when the New Testament mentions "scripture" it is the Old Testament as we know today. The New Testament wasn't published at the time that Paul's letters were written. Not only that, according to the gospel written in the book of Hebrews, a testament isn't in effect while the testator still lives. It is only in effect when the testator dies. Therefore the New Testament was effectual after Christ's death. This makes all of what Jesus Christ taught (before His death) Old Testament, even though He prophesied in many occasions about His death and resurrection. Therefore, Jesus taught the Old as did the Prophets and Moses.
M
No...Paul is not telling timothy to be under or to keep the law of Moses...
2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned (without hypocrisy) faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
2Ti 2:1 ¶ Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:8 ¶ Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 3:10 ¶ But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Now what doctrine do we know that Paul taught?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
This is correct. Paul is referring to the Old Testament writings. That's all there was at the time. Many don't take the time to perceive that when the New Testament mentions "scripture" it is the Old Testament as we know today. The New Testament wasn't published at the time that Paul's letters were written. Not only that, according to the gospel written in the book of Hebrews, a testament isn't in effect while the testator still lives. It is only in effect when the testator dies. Therefore the New Testament was effectual after Christ's death. This makes all of what Jesus Christ taught (before His death) Old Testament, even though He prophesied in many occasions about His death and resurrection. Therefore, Jesus taught the Old as did the Prophets and Moses.
M
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Where in the law does it teach faith in Jesus Christ ? Paul uses the term "sacred letters" he is clearly talking about the New Testament "letters" that was passed throughout the churches that timothy would have known in regards to Jesus Christ and salvation through faith in Him....The law does not teach that, except in shadow and type.
Where in the law does it teach faith in Jesus Christ ? Paul uses the term "sacred letters" he is clearly talking about the New Testament "letters" that was passed throughout the churches that timothy would have known in regards to Jesus Christ and salvation through faith in Him....The law does not teach that, except in shadow and type.