Some thought about "Jews"

[Magenta]

Honestly, I pray for this to be true …. I seriously feel that an eternal punishment is too harsh, for my human brain to wrap around. . Even for the worst of human beings like Hitler.. however I believe this point of view is the minority among Christians scholars.

You might be surprised to find out who and how many do. And surprised to learn the mainstream
view was not the first. I know it is a long video I posted earlier but it is well worth listening to.

 

[Seeker47]

This is where you lose me, because the Bible teaches that there is NONE righteous no not one, no one obeys the law and that is the issue. If what you wrote is true, why bother spreading the Gospel?


The jews are living in open sin and defiance against God. They rejected the Son of God, and most are atheists, the so called Haredi jews are sucking on the private parts of a boy when they circumcise him, the talmud blasphemes against Jesus and spreads open hatred to gentiles teaching them gentiles have 0 value. They can break their vows and contracts with a satanic ritual which some of them do by waving a chicken around. I could continue the list but this suffices.


Yes. If they are outside of Christ.

This is my source:

Jeremiah 31:33
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 2:14-15
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

 

[jacko]

You might be surprised to find out who and how many do. And surprised to learn the mainstream
view was not the first. I know it is a long video I posted earlier but it is well worth listening to.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[Slimsumo]

This is my source:

Jeremiah 31:33
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 2:14-15
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

I agree with both, no one fulfills Romans 2:14 unfortunately, if you keep reading to chapter 3 you will notice Paul concludes with the statement that both jews and gentiles are under sin and need a savior (Jesus)

The New Covenant most definitely is in effect and God saved a multitude of Jews during the 1st century and has continued to save them throughout history. I believe there will be a big revival amongst them prior to the return of Jesus.

 

[DavyP]

I hope to address a difficult topic, one that has been mentioned several times on CC. The statement has been made that all Jews are going to burn in hell because they reject Jesus Christ. I have a few thoughts on that topic.

The matter still must align with what God's Word says on the matter as written, and not be just someone's opinion.

Romans 11 and Zechariah 12, and even what Jesus showed in Luke 23:27-30 with the parable of 'blessed are the barren..." reveals the orthodox unbelieving Jews at Christ's future return will be in shame once they understand Who they were misled to reject. Apostle Paul showed this will happen because of the 'spirit of stupor' which God placed upon the majority of unbelieving Jews that will remain upon them until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom.11).

Per Old Testament history, the Jews represented originally the 3 tribes of the southern "kingdom of Judah" per 1 Kings 11 forward once God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The majority of Israelites of the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" were separated from the Jews, and the ten tribes were removed out of the holy land first to go into captivity for false worship. Only the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea remained in the land, and would later go into captivity to Babylon for seventy years, with a remnant of the Jews returning, which today represent the modern nation state of Israel. Only a small remnant of the northern ten tribes left the north and joined with Judah, and thus those became known as Jews with Judah, Benjamin, and Levi in the southern kingdom. This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin.

First, being a “Jew” is not monolithic. Just like Christianity there are multiple statements of faith within that group, some biblical and some not. The Natsarim, “Jews” who keep the Torah while accepting Messiah Yeshua, was the very first expression of Christianity. They still exist today. Indeed, Messianic Judaism is alive and well and appears to be a growing movement in Israel, as predicted.

Judaism is NOT the same thing as Christianity, nor did Christianity evolve from Judaism.
Per Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 4, The Gospel Promise of Jesus Christ by FAITH was first, 430 years before the giving of the law, and was preached to Abraham, and Abraham believed, and thus God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. And that Promise by Faith is what is assigned to all believers on Jesus Christ, and inherit with faithful Abraham. So tell me, how could a Torah based salvation system that came later ever replace that original Promise by Faith given first through Abraham?

Just because Lord Jesus was a Jew does not mean He was a follower of the Jew's religion. When Apostle Paul used "the Jew's religion" phrase in Galatians 1, his idea was about the created traditions of men included in the religion of Judaism which God did not ordain. This is why Jesus rebuked much of what the blind scribes and Pharisees were teaching.

I see problems some Jews that believe in Jesus Christ have with trying to reconcile Jewish traditions (and Judaism) within Christian thought. That does not work. Jesus nailed the ordinances in the law to His cross (Col. 2:14).

Then, there is the issue of natural law. Biblically, a person who has never heard the word (Jesus) but has the Torah written on his heart and obeys, is redeemed. The “Jews” as a people have pursued the truths of YHWH longer and with more diligence than any other people. The Word is deeply etched in their hearts. Are they really denied salvation?

That was the situation before Jesus of Nazareth came and died on the cross and was raised from the dead, to sit on the right hand of The Father in Heaven. Now, all... must confess Jesus Christ as God's promised Savior to be saved. Because also when Jesus died on the cross, at His resurrection He went to the "spirits in prison", those who had died prior, and preached The Gospel to them, and per Isaiah 42:7 would lead out the prisoners that believed, so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (see 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4).

Next, since the modern church has denied the First Testament, the impression exists that Jesus suddenly appears and quickly changes everything. From this view, it looks like He was inactive in history until the nativity. Even a cursory reading of scripture disproves this assumption. Yeshua, the one appearing as the Son of Man, the Angel of The Lord (YHWH), was continually involved with God’s people throughout history, teaching, encouraging, protecting, growing, and sometimes even punishing his people. To think Jesus suddenly changes direction and now forever curses his people is unimaginable.

I hope you are not referring to the old covenant with that idea of Christ's Church having denied "the First Testament".

If you don't believe Christ's death and resurrection changed that old covenant which is no more, then you definitely need to study the New Testament Book called Hebrews.

What you are saying about Lord Jesus' existence in Old Covenant times of course is true. Apostle Paul had some things to say about Jesus in that time involving Israel in the wilderness, and Jesus represents that 'Rock' that followed them. The 'pillar' of Jacob is associated with Jesus Christ. But many traditions of men among some Christian denominations cause disregard of a lot of that OT history which also contains The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I also do not accept the assumption that “Jews” deny Yeshua HaMashiach. His teachings have influenced many “Jewish” thoughts. What many “Jews” do struggle with is the concept that The Messiah appears twice in human history. Indeed, they look forward eagerly to his promised coming. Missing His first coming may be an error on their part, but it is not a rejection of YHWH or Yeshua or their teachings.

Religious Orthodox unbelieving Jews of course do not reject the Messiah prophecy that's written in The Old Testament Books. They instead reject that Jesus of Nazareth is that Messiah, which is how they are still deceived today about Messiah. And like Jesus said in John 5:43 to those Jews who wanted to kill Him...

John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV

They will make the mistake of believing on the coming false-Messiah which is to appear first in Jerusalem at the end, claiming to be God, with the power of miracles to deceive the whole world with.

There is also an issue about who provides salvation to whom. We know God’s chosen people, the Seed of Abraham, brings salvation to the gentiles. There is also the opposite reaction, salvation of the “Jews” comes in the fullness of the gentiles. An eagerly anticipated future event. Even the Second Testament Disciple; the Patron Saint of the western Christian Church; Paul, makes this perfectly clear:

“Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
Romans 11:11-12

It is not wise for Jews to assume they are special just because God chose certain ones of them in the great responsibility of taking The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles.

As for Paul in Romans 11 about the spirit of stupor God placed upon the majority of unbelieving Jews, once that blindness is removed at Christ's future return, they must still make their choice to believe or not believe.

 

[Slimsumo]

Who executed judgment on 1st century Israel in 70AD?

"
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

"

Pharisees didnt drive out demons in Jesus name this is future final judgment

 

[Cameron143]

"
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

"

Pharisees didnt drive out demons in Jesus name this is future final judgment

All fine stuff, not that I agree with all your conclusions or logic. And from it, I take that you don't believe Jesus was the One Who destroyed Jerusalem.

So...who did?
And what was the destruction of Jerusalem concerning?

 

[Seeker47]

The matter still must align with what God's Word says on the matter as written, and not be just someone's opinion.

Romans 11 and Zechariah 12, and even what Jesus showed in Luke 23:27-30 with the parable of 'blessed are the barren..." reveals the orthodox unbelieving Jews at Christ's future return will be in shame once they understand Who they were misled to reject. Apostle Paul showed this will happen because of the 'spirit of stupor' which God placed upon the majority of unbelieving Jews that will remain upon them until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom.11).

Per Old Testament history, the Jews represented originally the 3 tribes of the southern "kingdom of Judah" per 1 Kings 11 forward once God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The majority of Israelites of the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" were separated from the Jews, and the ten tribes were removed out of the holy land first to go into captivity for false worship. Only the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea remained in the land, and would later go into captivity to Babylon for seventy years, with a remnant of the Jews returning, which today represent the modern nation state of Israel. Only a small remnant of the northern ten tribes left the north and joined with Judah, and thus those became known as Jews with Judah, Benjamin, and Levi in the southern kingdom. This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin.



Judaism is NOT the same thing as Christianity, nor did Christianity evolve from Judaism.
Per Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 4, The Gospel Promise of Jesus Christ by FAITH was first, 430 years before the giving of the law, and was preached to Abraham, and Abraham believed, and thus God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. And that Promise by Faith is what is assigned to all believers on Jesus Christ, and inherit with faithful Abraham. So tell me, how could a Torah based salvation system that came later ever replace that original Promise by Faith given first through Abraham?

Just because Lord Jesus was a Jew does not mean He was a follower of the Jew's religion. When Apostle Paul used "the Jew's religion" phrase in Galatians 1, his idea was about the created traditions of men included in the religion of Judaism which God did not ordain. This is why Jesus rebuked much of what the blind scribes and Pharisees were teaching.

I see problems some Jews that believe in Jesus Christ have with trying to reconcile Jewish traditions (and Judaism) within Christian thought. That does not work. Jesus nailed the ordinances in the law to His cross (Col. 2:14).



That was the situation before Jesus of Nazareth came and died on the cross and was raised from the dead, to sit on the right hand of The Father in Heaven. Now, all... must confess Jesus Christ as God's promised Savior to be saved. Because also when Jesus died on the cross, at His resurrection He went to the "spirits in prison", those who had died prior, and preached The Gospel to them, and per Isaiah 42:7 would lead out the prisoners that believed, so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (see 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4).




I hope you are not referring to the old covenant with that idea of Christ's Church having denied "the First Testament".

If you don't believe Christ's death and resurrection changed that old covenant which is no more, then you definitely need to study the New Testament Book called Hebrews.

What you are saying about Lord Jesus' existence in Old Covenant times of course is true. Apostle Paul had some things to say about Jesus in that time involving Israel in the wilderness, and Jesus represents that 'Rock' that followed them. The 'pillar' of Jacob is associated with Jesus Christ. But many traditions of men among some Christian denominations cause disregard of a lot of that OT history which also contains The Gospel of Jesus Christ.



Religious Orthodox unbelieving Jews of course do not reject the Messiah prophecy that's written in The Old Testament Books. They instead reject that Jesus of Nazareth is that Messiah, which is how they are still deceived today about Messiah. And like Jesus said in John 5:43 to those Jews who wanted to kill Him...

John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV

They will make the mistake of believing on the coming false-Messiah which is to appear first in Jerusalem at the end, claiming to be God, with the power of miracles to deceive the whole world with.



It is not wise for Jews to assume they are special just because God chose certain ones of them in the great responsibility of taking The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles.

As for Paul in Romans 11 about the spirit of stupor God placed upon the majority of unbelieving Jews, once that blindness is removed at Christ's future return, they must still make their choice to believe or not believe.

Thank you, your response is thoughtful and thorough. That said there are several points at which we disagree. I am studying as many responses as possible and will try to address those issues as best I can. Please note, I never said all "Jews" are saved; I did say I do not believe all "Jews" are damned.

 

[jacko]

You might be surprised to find out who and how many do. And surprised to learn the mainstream
view was not the first. I know it is a long video I posted earlier but it is well worth listening to.

OK, so I watched most of the video and a few others on the subject. To summarize there are three views on hell.

1) eternal torment
2) annihilation
3) universal restoration.


Now we just need a poll, to see who believes what.

 

[BOY]

Then, there is the issue of natural law. Biblically, a person who has never heard the word (Jesus) but has the Torah written on his heart and obeys,

Romans 11:11-12

Everybody's heard the word Jesus. Especially the Jews. because that's the Messiah they rejected and they would have been talking about that.

 

[Magenta]

OK, so I watched most of the video and a few others on the subject. To summarize there are three views on hell.

1) eternal torment
2) annihilation
3) universal restoration.

Now we just need a poll, to see who believes what.

A poll? Please, no. You will garner a lot of condemnation for even considering anything besides the
mainstream view despite the fact it was not the first view or even as well supported by Scripture.
And it's not like it has not been done to death already LOL. Though not, perhaps, since you joined...

 

[jacko]

OK, so I watched most of the video and a few others on the subject. To summarize there are three views on hell.

1) eternal torment
2) annihilation
3) universal restoration.


Now we just need a poll, to see who believes what.

3) would be awesome!
2) would be OK..
1) I accept it, but deeply saddened by it.


In any case, Father your will be done.

 

[jacko]

A poll? Please, no. You will garner a lot of condemnation for even considering anything besides the
mainstream view despite the fact it was not the first view or even as well supported by Scripture.
And it's not like it has not been done to death already LOL. Though not, perhaps, since you joined...

There are a lot of near death experiences videos I’ve seen which point to experiencing. A nasty hell or torment.

 

[jacko]

You have some problems with your statements. God fulfilled the 1st Covenant when Jesus came to earth as the Messiah. Most of the Jews rejected Him as such. To reject Jesus is to reject Gods fulfillment of the 1st Covenant. F.Y.I. My Grandmothers maiden name is Soloman. Thus she and I are direct descendants of the Tribe of Solomon. However, I am a Christian. I believer in and follower of Jesus the Christ.

John, Chapter 10:
30) I and my Father are one.

John, Chapter 14:

6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Mark, Chapter 16:



15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans, Chapter 9:

25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

All who die in unbelief will not be saved. There will be no magical salvation for those Jews who died denying Jesus is the promised Messiah and Savior of the world. If there were, then God would not be a Just God.

Chapter 3:

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The 1st Covenant was the Law of Moses. The New Covenant is the Law of faith!

Hebrews, Chapter 8:

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Sadly, all peoples who die in unbelief and denial of Jesus will be damned for eternity. This includes Jews.

Jews who died in the Holocaust? Any thoughts on that?

 

[Magenta]

There are a lot of near death experiences videos I’ve seen which point to experiencing. A nasty hell or torment.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. However, fear has to do with punishment, and perfect love casts out fear.

Proverbs 9:10 plus Matthew 10:28

1 John 4:18

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You might be surprised to find out who and how many do. And surprised to learn the mainstream
view was not the first. I know it is a long video I posted earlier but it is well worth listening to.

I’ve noticed what they believed then in scripture and how they operated what they taught . Is often not close to the same things on many subjects we hear today

 

[Magenta]

I’ve noticed what they believed then in scripture and how they operated what they taught .
Is often not close to the same things on many subjects we hear today

I am listening to this one now...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. However, fear has to do with punishment, and perfect love casts out fear.

Proverbs 9:10 plus Matthew 10:28

1 John 4:18

Amen

“And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:43-44, 47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The fear of God is good , to be afraid of Gods is not . The reason he washed our sins away is so we can approach him with confidence knowing he’s forgiven us and cleansed our sins but we know the reverence towards him who raises up worlds and brings them down in a moment

God is ever to be feared by anyone with any sense but to be afraid to come near him is death for us all

 

[wattie]

The thing I see alot ..is some people who say they are messianic Jew.. but lower Jesus' status below the Father. They dont believe Jesus is God. So they still trust in their works.

Obviously not all have this belief..but it is common and deceptive.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The thing I see alot ..is some people who say they are messianic Jew.. but lower Jesus' status below the Father. They dont believe Jesus is God. So they still trust in their works.

Obviously not all have this belief..but it is common and deceptive.

Many Christian’s also don’t understand the name of the father son and Holy Ghost is Jesus , or that he is the fullness of God manifest in one body and man. But maybe God doesn’t hold against us what we don’t understand . Maybe it’s about what we do understand and rebel against ?