Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[mark54]

they prove the father has authority. which I have never denied. I meant they do not prove Jesus is Not God.

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Who is this speaking? who was sent by the father AND his spirit?

As I was answering three of four people at the same time yesterdsay, I think I overlooked answering this.
As someone on another site noted. It is not always easy to know whether the Father is speaking, or the son speaking the words of the Father in the OT. Isaiah had revelations of the cioming Christ from the Spirit I assume we would agree.
However, if we are to look as to whether Christ is God Himself or not we have the plain scripturesw directly relating to this in the nt
You say those scriptures do not prove Christ is not God

Now this is eternal life, that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent

They certainly prove Christ is not the one true God. It says nothing of just authority, that must be your opinion EG.

And Paul states
Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ

I am not saying you are trying to do this. But if we were to go to the OT to try and overturn the plain scripture on this subject in the NT, where would that leave the credibility of Christ and Paul? Or should I say, how much trust would we put in their plain statements

As Elin, and Tribitarian ministers admit, there is no plain verse of scripture anywhere in the bible that states Christ is God Himself(the one true God)
But there are plain verses of scripture that states only the Father is the one true God
And we have but one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ
And plain verses where Christ states
The Father is greater than I
The Father is greater than all

 

[GreenNnice]

Who does John 14:6 say is ” the way, the truth, the life,” and, how can Jesus not be God if He is truly ALL those things?

Again, comes back to what was said earlier, and, you're supporting my point again now, too, markymark, as there is, indeed, only one true God , and, He is the ”Holy One,” having this said helps you understand the fact you are taking away Jesus' Deity ..

 

[mark54]

Who does John 14:6 say is ” the way, the truth, the life,” and, how can Jesus not be God if He is truly ALL those things?

Again, comes back to what was said earlier, and, you're supporting my point again now, too, markymark, as there is, indeed, only one true God , and, He is the ”Holy One,” having this said helps you understand the fact you are taking away Jesus' Deity ..

Firstly, Arius believed in the diety of Christ, would you accept him as a Christian, or is diety not the most important thing here?

Secon dly
There is no plain scrtipure in the entire bible that states Christ is the one true God
But we do have the plain weords of Christ that states only the Father is the one true God

I did not write the Bible Greenice, please remeber that, I just accept what Jesus stated, you obviously do not

 

[mark54]

they prove the father has authority. which I have never denied. I meant they do not prove Jesus is Not God.

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Who is this speaking? who was sent by the father AND his spirit?

I would like to make a couple more points if I may EG concerning OT scripture.
The Jews had all of the OT scripture, but were not I believe expecting God Himself to come as their Messiah

Hopefully we would agree, the Apostle Paul understood OT scripture far better than you or I. This is what he wrote in full knowledge of those scriptures:

Yet for us, there is BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST through whom all things came and through whom we live
1Cor8:6

Also

Now when it says that everything has been put under him(Christ) it is clear that this does not include God Himself who put everything under Christ 1Cor15:27

Paulk also many times referred to
The God and Father of Christ
It is in the NT we have the plain statements directly relating to this subject

If you believe the OT shows Christ is the one true God, then clearly the Apostle Paul did not understand what you do, and therefore nearly half the books of the NT must be called into question

And the above quotes of Paul perfectly align with Chrtist stating

The Father is the one true God
The Father is greater than all
The Father is greater than I

And also John stating no one has seen God AT ANYTIME

EG
I am giving you the plainest of scripture on this subject, directly relating to it, I do not need to theologise. I think a level playing field is only fair
Please give me equally plain scripture that states
Christ is the one true God. I know of no such scripture in the Bible, and if you could produce one, then the words of Christ who spoke the word of God on this eartyh are contradicted by other scriprture
I will continue discussing this with you, but only if you can give me as plain a scripture as I am giving you and we have a level playing fiueld as such

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would like to make a couple more points if I may EG concerning OT scripture.
The Jews had all of the OT scripture, but were not I believe expecting God Himself to come as their Messiah

Hopefully we would agree, the Apostle Paul understood OT scripture far better than you or I. This is what he wrote in full knowledge of those scriptures:

Yet for us, there is BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST through whom all things came and through whom we live
1Cor8:6

Also

Now when it says that everything has been put under him(Christ) it is clear that this does not include God Himself who put everything under Christ 1Cor15:27

Paulk also many times referred to
The God and Father of Christ
It is in the NT we have the plain statements directly relating to this subject

If you believe the OT shows Christ is the one true God, then clearly the Apostle Paul did not understand what you do, and therefore nearly half the books of the NT must be called into question

And the above quotes of Paul perfectly align with Chrtist stating

The Father is the one true God
The Father is greater than all
The Father is greater than I

And also John stating no one has seen God AT ANYTIME

EG
I am giving you the plainest of scripture on this subject, directly relating to it, I do not need to theologise. I think a level playing field is only fair
Please give me equally plain scripture that states
Christ is the one true God. I know of no such scripture in the Bible, and if you could produce one, then the words of Christ who spoke the word of God on this eartyh are contradicted by other scriprture
I will continue discussing this with you, but only if you can give me as plain a scripture as I am giving you and we have a level playing fiueld as such

I don't know what to say bro.. All I asked was who was speaking in that passage. It can't be the father, because the father sent him, It can't be the Holy Spirit. because he said the HS sent him.

I am not using this to prove Jesus is the one true God. we both know who that is. I am using it to see who you think this is, and what part he played. and what made him able to play this part. That's all.. Most people who believe Jesus is not God think he is either an angel, or was nothing before he was born of mary. And he was a created being, not a infinite being "as Hebrews says, no beginning no end" which to me is a dangerous theology. I am trying to get your perspective, because I do not see you saying these things.

 

[zone]

Jesus said those words, and Paul stated we only have one God the Father, and John said
No one has seen God at anytime

Genesis 32:30
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Exodus 24
9Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.

Judges 13
Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.” 23But his wife said to him, “If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these.”


elohim: God god
Original Word: אֱלֹהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God

 

[zone]

a-a-a-a-a-anyways.....this thread has been derailed into a breeding ground for Arian heresy.
denying Jesus is God.

ta

 

[dashadow]

We get our truth from the word of God, which function of the Holy Spirit is to illumine.
We check out our understanding of illumination by measuring it against the rest of the word of God.

The apostles got their truth from the Holy Spirit directly.
They wrote the word of God, which is now the source of the truth which function of the Holy Spirit is to illumine to us.

The word of God is the sum total of our truth.

We get our truth from the Living Word of God, the Holy Spirit. If we have accepted that we have died and risen with Christ, how would our access to the truth be less than that of the apostles? That is totally off base.

 

[unclefester]

a-a-a-a-a-anyways.....this thread has been derailed into a breeding ground for Arian heresy.
denying Jesus is God.

1 Timothy 3:16 ... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[zone]

ya Fes...not so much amazing the christian faith is under assault. that's nothing new.
what's amazing is how arians find comrades. *shrug*
i like your posts on this matter, btw, bro

 

[unclefester]

We get our truth from the Living Word of God, the Holy Spirit. If we have accepted that we have died and risen with Christ, how would our access to the truth be less than that of the apostles? That is totally off base.

How is the Word given us by God's Holy Spirit (the bible) thru the apostles any less than the Word given to the apostles themselves ? What "Word" do you avail to "access the truth" ?

 

[Elin]

Elin,

I wish to take this opportunity to extend to you an open apology. After having posted #871 in explaining yourself when I said that you were calling Christ a liar by me thinking you were saying that we now do not have the Spirit of Truth, I understand now that you were talking about the different methods the Spirit used to talk to the apostles and how He talks to us now.

"I apologize to you for me having assumed you were denying the administration of the Spirit in a child of God."

Thank you,
Chris

Thank you, Chris. . .apology accepted.

 

[Elin]

Though obviously you cannot address any of my points put to you

This is the point.

the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh,

 

[Elin]

a-a-a-a-a-anyways.....this thread has been derailed into a breeding ground for Arian heresy.
denying Jesus is God.

ta

Time for a refresher:

The Biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God was presented in five parts:

I. Introduction - God's foreknowledge, Biblically God's foreknowledge is determinative (here).
Scripture's presentation of events occurring because God's foreknowledge is determinative (Ac 4:28, 2:23) necessarily means that, because his foreknowledge is of all things, then his foreknowledge of all things is determinative.

Then four objections to the sovereignty of God in the actions of men were Biblically addressed and removed:

II. God's sovereignty violates man's free will (here).

III. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for sin when he is unable to obey God (here).

IV. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind guilty of Adam's sin when they did not incure that sin (here).

V. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for their sin when, because of God's operation within their dispositions (hearts), they voluntarily do as God determines (here).

 

[mark54]

This is the point.

the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh,

That has been dealt with in the TRINITY DEBATE
This is the point, the words of Christ who spoke the word of God on this earth

Now this is eternal life(niote what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent

You are not really refusing to accept what I say, but what Christ himself says.

 

[Elin]

We get our truth from the Living Word of God, the Holy Spirit.

The Living Word of God is not the Holy Spirit.
The Father is not the Son, and the Holy Spirit is neither.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of both, proceeding from both, and sent by both.

If we have accepted that we have died and risen with Christ,
how would our access to the truth be less than that of the apostles? That is totally off base.

The apostles had access to truth never before revealed.

Is your access the same as the apostles?

 

[Elin]

the words of Christ who spoke the word of God on this earth

The word of God is

the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh,

 

[mark54]

I don't know what to say bro.. All I asked was who was speaking in that passage. It can't be the father, because the father sent him, It can't be the Holy Spirit. because he said the HS sent him.

I am not using this to prove Jesus is the one true God. we both know who that is. I am using it to see who you think this is, and what part he played. and what made him able to play this part. That's all.. Most people who believe Jesus is not God think he is either an angel, or was nothing before he was born of mary. And he was a created being, not a infinite being "as Hebrews says, no beginning no end" which to me is a dangerous theology. I am trying to get your perspective, because I do not see you saying these things.

You have already been given an answer on that passage I would agree with EG
Did Christ directly speak tp Isaiah

Isaiah was a prophet, the Spirit would have revealed to him forthcoming events.

If you are solely interested in if I believe Christ is an angel, I think that has been answered already, he is higher than the angels, he reigns now in Heaven and on earth for the Father has put everything under his feet. As Tertullian and Iraneaus believed, I also do that Christ was the firsdtborn over all creation as I have previously mentioned to you

Obnviously I do not think Christ was nothing before he was born of Mary, as Paul said

Yet for us there is one God, the Father from whom all things came and for whom we live, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live
1Cor8:6

If you want a theoliogical discussion EG concerning Christ in the OT may I suggest you start a thread on it. I am not myself into theologising as much as you seem to want to. Scripture tells me what I need to know, the Father is the one true God, Christ is my Lord and Saviour. I am not a theologian, I leave that to others

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That has been dealt with in the TRINITY DEBATE
This is the point, the words of Christ who spoke the word of God on this earth

sorry bro this does not make sense. the word is the name given to the one who came to earth, and his own received him not.

it does not say he was the word which came from God. it says he is the word which was god. and not only this, he was with god.

kind of hard to get by being God and with God at the same time.

jesus is called the "logos" because scripture as a whole speaks of him and his salvation to restore man to the father. it is all about him.. thus he is given the title "the word" he has many titles in scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have already been given an answer on that passage I would agree with EG
Did Christ directly speak tp Isaiah

Isaiah was a prophet, the Spirit would have revealed to him forthcoming events.

If you are solely interested in if I believe Christ is an angel, I think that has been answered already, he is higher than the angels, he reigns now in Heaven and on earth for the Father has put everything under his feet. As Tertullian and Iraneaus believed, I also do that Christ was the firsdtborn over all creation as I have previously mentioned to you

Obnviously I do not think Christ was nothing before he was born of Mary, as Paul said

Yet for us there is one God, the Father from whom all things came and for whom we live, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live
1Cor8:6

If you want a theoliogical discussion EG concerning Christ in the OT may I suggest you start a thread on it. I am not myself into theologising as much as you seem to want to. Scripture tells me what I need to know, the Father is the one true God, Christ is my Lord and Saviour. I am not a theologian, I leave that to others

lol.. theology? I am sorry, I do not get this type of argument. and I am not tearing you down or trying to. i hope you know this. I am just getting you to
1. see what I believe
2. get you to think of some things. which you might not know, or maybe you do know..
3. Get your point of view so i know where your coming from.



I asked if it was christ who spoke or not. yes or no.. it is not theology..