Tainted scriptures

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Jan 31, 2009
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#61
Now, i don't know about all of these scriptures, but the conclusion to Mark 16 is either left out of some translations or there is a footnote saying that it is not part of all manuscripts. There is consensus among bible scholars that those verses were added onto the end of Mark at some point after the original gospel was written, because where it left off didn't make for a very good ending. It could be that the original ending was lost; we just don't know. The same is true of the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8: bible scholars agree that that was a later addition to the text, and not part of John's original gospel.

Remember, just because something is old (like the KJV) doesn't mean it's accurate. As we get new information and new scholarship is done, we can correct the mistakes of the past. It's this way in every field, not just biblical scholarship.

when we compare spiritual with carnal we get in trouble everytime dude, your first err was comparing scripture with every field. God has promised that His Word would always be with us, that it will never pass away. To say that we didn't have His whole word for almost 400 years is just as bad as the mormans when they claim we had only a portion of the gospel until God revealed the whole Gospel to their prophet, Joseph Smith, and we can find the whole truth of the Gospel in their book of mormans. to say that the word of God layed around in some cave as the dead sea scrolls, and we only had a portion (and that portion was not without err) of His truth, is to call God a lair. so go ahead if you want to but as far as me and my family we will serve a HOLY GOD, who has given us His HOLY WORD and gave it To all others down through history, not just those since the 1950's when the mordern day versions started popping up everywhere
 
G

Groundhog

Guest
#62
when we compare spiritual with carnal we get in trouble everytime dude, your first err was comparing scripture with every field. God has promised that His Word would always be with us, that it will never pass away. To say that we didn't have His whole word for almost 400 years is just as bad as the mormans when they claim we had only a portion of the gospel until God revealed the whole Gospel to their prophet, Joseph Smith, and we can find the whole truth of the Gospel in their book of mormans. to say that the word of God layed around in some cave as the dead sea scrolls, and we only had a portion (and that portion was not without err) of His truth, is to call God a lair. so go ahead if you want to but as far as me and my family we will serve a HOLY GOD, who has given us His HOLY WORD and gave it To all others down through history, not just those since the 1950's when the mordern day versions started popping up everywhere
Thaddeus, it's well-known that there are problems with the King James version just as there are with any other translation. One of the main problems with the KJV is the limited number of sources the translators used. This is all well-documented, and you can look it up. We have centuries upon centuries of original Greek copies of the New Testament, and while they are consistent for the most part, not all of the manuscripts agree, so that's why good bible translations will have footnotes alerting you that a particular verse may have been added later, sometime after the original writing. The conclusion of Mark is one such section. And this sort of scholarship and honesty is important, I think, because it is concerned with the truth. I'm not comparing "scripture" with every other field, I'm comparing the methods we use to arrive at accurate translations, interpretations, etc.; that we approach it just like any other historical document, and strive to have the most accurate understanding of it, just like we would any other historical document. This is done to respect the document, not demean it.
 
C

coachsteve

Guest
#63
i believe it takes more then just following the bible. anyone, can follow the bible. anyone can read the bible. anyone can say they read the bible and call themselves a christian. anyone can say the bible is just a book. don't just follow the bible, but LIVE IT. don't just follow the bible, BELIEVE IT. don't just follow the bible, but follow Jesus. when you read the bible, study it, learn it, practice it, take time to listen to God. when you truly follow the bible, you truly will find out who you TRULY are in Christ. anyone can follow the bible, anyone can understand 99.9% of the bible. it takes more then just reading the bible to be saved. yes, reading the bible can bring you to closer to God. but until you accept Christ into your heart and believe He is the Son of God, and ask forgiveness of our sins, it is then we shall hope to see the kingdom of God. anyone can read the bible.
 
D

Deadtosin

Guest
#64
http://www.keithhunt.com/Ntmss.html

Written and Compiled
by
Keith Hunt


In 1983 Barry Burton wrote a small book called "Let's Weigh
the Evidence" concerning most of the modern translations of the
Bible, the NT in specifics, and the KJV translation. It was
really all to do with Greek MSS (manuscripts), as well as a few
other things.

I will quote what I consider to be the basics of this issue,
from Burton's book, and also give as he does MANY other verses
for you to investigate as to how they are translated (if they are
in the translation to begin with) in the modern versions as
compared to the KJV or New KJV. All "......." and CAPITAL
letters, and !!!! plus ????? are Buton's, during the quotes from
his book (which is probably still obtainable from:
Chick Publications. Box 662, Chino, CA 91710).

QUOTE:

Accurate Copies

These MSS represent the MSS from which the "Textus Receptus"
or Received Text, was taken. They are the majority of Greek MSS
which agree with each other and it is from these MSS that the
King James Bible was translated in 1611.

Corrupted Copies

These MSS present the corrupted copies of the Bible, also
known as the Alexandrian MSS. These MSS, many times, do not even
agree with each other. The Vaticanus and Siniaticus MSS are part
of this group. These are the MSS on which Wescott and Hort and
the modern versions rely so heavily.
There are 5, 309 surviving Greek MSS that contain all or
part of the NT.
These MSS agree 95% of the time. The other 5% account for
the differences between the KJV and the modern translation.
Textus Receptus does NOT include the Vaticanus and
Siniaticus.
MSS from which the modern versions are translated includes
the Textus Receptus PLUS the Vaticanus and Siniaticus.

The modern versions had to use the Textus Receptus, since it
contains the MAJORITY of surviving Greek MSS. The problem it that
when the Textus Receptus DISAGREES with the Vaticanus or the
Siniaticus, they preferred these corrupted MSS OVER the Textus
Receptus. That accounts for the 5% corruption in the modern
versions. Even these TWO MSS agree with the Textus Receptus much
of the time.....

Now......the fact has been established (which Burton did
earlier in his book - Keith Hunt) that the modern versions are
DIFFERENT than the KJV Bible, BUT.....
WHY....are they different?

There are at least 5,309 surviving Greek MSS which contain
all or part of the NT. PLUS....there are translations into
different languages which date back to within 100 years of the
disciples. For example the Pe****ta is a Syrian translation from
the 2nd century.

These MSS AGREE with each other about 95% of the time.

The problem is....
How does one determine what is right in the 5% of the places
where the MSS do not agree? ...........

The vast majority of Greek MSS agree together. They have
been passed down through the centuries.....In 1516 Erasmus
complied, edited, and printed the Greek "Textus Receptus"
(received text). This is the text that the Protestants of the
reformation knew.....The KJV was translated from the "Textus
Receptus."

Argument 1

(Modern Versions) The oldest surviving MSS must be the most
reliable. Therefore....when determining what MSS to depend on,
the Vaticanus (350 AD) and the Siniaticus (about 350 AD) should
be accepted as correct (even if 998 other MSS disagree with
them).

Argument 2

The oldest MSS (the Vaticanus and Siniaticus) are NOT
reliable at all!

For one thing....the Vaticanus and Siniaticus DISAGREE with
EACH OTHER over 3,000 times in the gospels alone!

FACTS about the Vaticanus

It was written on fine vellum (tanned animal skins) and
remains in excellent condition. It was found in the Vatican
Library in 1481 AD. In spite of being in excellent condition, it
omits Genesis 1: 1 to Genesis. 46: 28, Psalms 106-138, Matt. 16:
2-3, the Pauline Pastoral Epistles, Hebrews 9: 14 - 13: 25, and
all of Revelation.

Besides all that - in the gospels alone it leaves out 237
words, 452 clauses and 748 whole sentences, which hundreds of
later copies agree together as having the same words in the same
places, the same clauses in the same places, and the same
sentences in the same places.

The Vaticanus was available to the translators of the KJV
Bible, but they didn't use it because they knew it is UNRELIABLE.
The Vaticanus also contains the Apocrypha.

The Siniaticus is a MS that was found in 1844 in a trash
pile in St. Catherine's Monastery near Mt. Sinai, by a man named
Tischendorf. It contains nearly all of the NT plus it adds the
"Shepherd of Hermes" and the "Epistle of Barnabas" to the NT.

The Siniaticus is EXTREMELY unreliable, proven by examining
the MS itself. John Burgeon spent years examining every available
MS of the NT. He writes about the Siniaticus.....

"On many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40 words are dropped through
very carelessness. Letters, words or even whole sentences are
frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately
cancelled; while that gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted
because it happens to end in the same words as the clause
proceeding, occurs no less than 115 times in the NT."

On nearly every page of the MS there are corrections and
revisions, done by 10 different people. Some of these corrections
were made about the same time that it was copied, but most of
them were made in the 6th and 7th century.

Phillip Mauro was a brilliant lawyer who was admitted to the
bar of the Supreme Court in April 1892. He wrote a book called
"Which Version" in the early 1900s. He writes concerning the
Siniaticus....

"From these facts, therefore, we deduce: first that the
IMPURITY of the Codex Sinaiticus, in every part of it, was fully
recognized by those who were the best acquainted with it, and
that from the very beginning until the time when it was FINALLY
CAST ASIDE as WORTHLESS for any practical purpose."

THE VATICANUS AND SINIATICUS MSS ARE THE OLDEST, BUT.....
THEY ARE NOT THE BEST MSS!!!!!!!


That's where the modern translations went wrong!!! They
foolishly accepted the Vaticanus and Siniaticus because they were
OLD.

NOTE: When the modern versions say in the footnotes, "Some
of the oldest MSS. do not contain verses 9-20" or "This verse is
not found in the most ancient authorities"....

THEY ARE TAKING THEIR INFORMATION FROM THE CORRUPT AND
UNRELIABLE VATICANUS AND SINIATICUS MSS!!

FOR EXAMPLE: The Vaticanus and Siniaticus both LEAVE OUT the
last 12 verses of Mark, concerning the resurrection of Christ.

BUT.....

.....there is NOT ONE OTHER MS, either uncial or cursive
that leaves out this passage. There are 18 uncial (capital
letter) MSS that have the passage in and at least 600 cursive
(small letter) MSS that all CONTAIN these verses.

THE EVIDENCE IS AT LEAST 618 TO 2!

DID YOU READ THAT RIGHT??????

The EVIDENCE is at least 618 to 2 AGAINST the Vaticanus and
the Siniaticus.

In a court of law....if you had 618 witnesses that saw
something happen, and you had witnesses that said they did not
see it happen.....Would you accept the testimony of 618 or the
testimony of 2 ?

You see, it is foolish for any translator to accept a MS
simply because of age, without checking to find out where it came
from and if is was reliable or not.

END QUOTE


I will move to another part of Burton's book, where he gives
us some information on Wescott and Hort. Burton only gives A
LITTLE, many other writers have given MUCH more on the life and
ideas, and teachings, and theology views, of these two
foundational guys who started the modern movement into the modern
translations that relied so much on the Vaticanus and Siniaticus
MSS.
Wescott and Hort were quite the heretics, if you are
basically fundamental in your belief and reading of the Bible.

QUOTE

Who were Westcott and Hort????

They were two professors at Cambridge University who lived
in the late 1800s. They did not like the KJV Bible so they wrote
their own revised Greek Text. When he was only 23 Mr. Wescott
said, "....that VILE Textus Receptus....."

These two men are very important in the history of the
modern versions because the text that they wrote is the one that
became the basis for the REVISED STANDARD, and the MANY OTHER
modern translations of the Bible.

"The Romish view seems to me nearer, and more likely to lead
to the truth than the Evangelical.....We dare not forsake the
sacraments or God will forsake us."

Mr. Hort wrote this to Mr. John Ellerton, July 6, 1848.

Quotes from Mr. Hort's autobiography....

"EVANGELICALS seem to me PERVERTED rather than untrue...."

"But the book that has most engaged me is DARWIN.....My
feeling is strong that the theory in UNANSWERABLE."

"I have been persuaded for many years that MARY-WORSHIP and
Jesus-worship have very much in common....."

"But you know that I am a staunch SACERDOTALIST."

"I am inclined to think that such a state as Eden (I mean
the popular notion) never existed."

"The popular DOCTRINE OF SUBSTITUTION IS AN IMMORAL and
material COUNTERFEIT."

Quotes from Mr. Wescott's autobiography......

"I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry bears
witness."

"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters
of Genesis, for example, gives a literal history."

END OF QUOTES FROM BURTON'S BOOK


Now, some others have written in more detail about the
lives and theology ideas and beliefs of Wescott and Hort. One
such man was Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Ph. D. in 1930 in his book
called "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated."
This book goes into detail on the subject at hand, and the
lives of Wescott and Hort and the so-called "revision committee"
of their day.
Wilkinson quotes from many sources, including Wescott's son,
and letters Wescott and Hort sent to each other, and other
letter Wescott and Hort send to people.
It is not the purpose of this study to repeat all that is
written to show the way out, off the wall, heretic ideas of
Wescott and Hort. I believe the book by Wilkinson is still
available and I certainly recommend it. It was published by
"Leaves-Of-Autumn Books, Inc. Box 440, Payson, Arizona 85541.


OMISSIONS

Back now to Burton's book and we shall take a somewhat short
look at the various OMISSIONS of modern translations or in
particular the New American Standard.

It is not the purpose of this study to try and go through
all modern translations of the NT and compare them to the KJV or
the New KJV. The readers can do this for themselves at their time
and leisure.
Remember that some translations just simply leave out the
words or phrases or sentences etc. and say nothing. Others will
put the words or phrase/sentence in brackets, and tell you in the
margin or foot note that such was probably not in the original
writing, or say that many/some MSS do not contain these words or
sentences or verses, or do as the NIV often does (see below).
Remember also that depending on the translator/s and how
MUCH they RELIED on the Vaticanus and Siniaticus MSS, will
determine how much they left out as compared to the KJV or New
KJV.

So here are some of the words and phrases MISSING from the
NAS as given by Burton. I will ADD below each, what the Zondervan
Paperback edition (copyright 1973/74) of the NIV gives.

QUOTE

Acts 8: 36-38a

And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And
he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of
God

(The NIV leaves it out but gives a footnote saying, "Some MSS add
verse 37.....")

Matthew 17: 21

But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting

(The NIV leaves out but adds a footnote, "Some MS add verse
21.....)

Matthew 18: 11

For the Son of man has come to save that which was lost

(NIV leaves out but adds footnote, "Some MSS add verse 11.....)

Mark 7: 16

If any man has ears to hear, let him hear

(The NIV leave out but footnotes, "Some early MSS add verse
16....)

Mark 11: 26

But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in
heaven forgive your transgressions

(The NIV leaves out and footnotes, "Some MSS add verse 26.....)

Mark 15: 28

And the scripture was fulfilled which says, And he was numbered
with the transgressors

(The NIV leaves out but footnotes, "Some MSS add verse 28.....)

Luke 17: 36

Two men will be in the field; one will be left and the other will
be taken

(The NIV leaves out but footnotes, "Some MSS add verse 36.....)

Luke 23: 17

Now he was obliged to release to them at the feast one prisoner

(The NIV leaves out but adds in a footnote, "Some MSS add verse
17.....)

Luke 24: 11-13a

But Peter arose and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he
saw the linen wrappings only; and he went away to his home,
marvelling at that which had happened

(The NIV leaves in)

Luke 24: 40

And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet

(The NIV leaves in)

Matthew 23: 14

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour
widows' houses, even while for a pretence you make long prayers;
therefore you shall receive greater condemnation

(The NIV leaves out but adds a footnote, "Some MSS add verse
14.....)

Mark 9: 43b-46

where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched

(The NIV says in a footnote, "Some MSS add verse 44, which reads
the same as verse 48" In verse 48 the NIV does say, "Where their
worm does not die and the fire is not put out")

Mark 16: 9-20

Now after He had risen......And the went out preaching
everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the
word by the signs that followed

(The NIV leaves out, and says, "The most reliable early MSS omit
Mark 16: 9-20." The reader is asked to once more read the
beginning of this study for the truth of the matter on Mark 16:
9-20. The so-called scholars of the NIV and others do not tell
you that here they go with the two corrupt MSS of the Vaticanus
and Siniaticus).

Matthew 6: 9-13

For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever,
Amen

(The NIV leaves out but adds in a footnote, "Some late MSS add
'for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever,
Amen' ").

Luke 22: 19-20

This is my body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of
Me. And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten
saying, This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant
in My blood

(The NIV leaves in)

John 5: 3-5

waiting for the moving of the water; for an angel of the Lord
went down at certain seasons into the pool, and stirred up the
water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water,
stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was
afflicted

(The NIV leaves out, but footnotes, "Some MSS add 'and they
waited for the moving of the water.' Some less important MSS
also add verse 4....." Hummmm, of course they think they are less
important because they rely so much on the Vaticanus and the
Siniaticus MSS).

John 7: 53 to 8: 11

And everyone went to his home......And Jesus said, Neither do I
condemn you; go your way, from now on sin no more

(The NIV says, "The most reliable early MSS omit John 7: 53 to 8:
11." Again they go with the Vaticanus and Siniaticus, as
supposedly being "the most reliable MSS" but... read again the
beginning of this study).

END QUOTE

Burton gives more examples, then on page 55, the last page
of that chapter, he says:

QUOTE

MORE....OMISSIONS.....

You'll have to look them up for yourself but in these verses
WORDS or PHRASES or even the WHOLE VERSE is missing. Many times
they do not even mention it in the footnotes.

Mark 7: 16; Mark 9: 24; Mark 9: 42; Mark 9: 44 and 46; Mark
10: 21; Mark 11: 10; Mark 11: 26; Mark 12: 29-30; Mark 13: 14;
Mark 16: 9-20.

Luke 1: 28; Luke 2: 33; Luke 2: 43; Luke 4: 4; Luke 4: 8;
Luke 4: 41; Luke 7: 31; Luke 9: 54; Luke 11: 29; Luke 22: 31;
Luke 23: 17; Luke 23: 42; Luke 24: 12; Luke 24: 40; Luke 24:
49; Luke 24: 51.

John 1: 14; John 1: 18; John 1: 27; John 3: 13; John 3: 15;
John 4: 42; John 5: 3; John 5: 4; John 6: 47; John 7: 53 to 8:
1; John 8: 16; John 11: 41; John 16: 16; John 17: 12.

Acts 2: 30; Acts 7: 30; Acts 7: 37; Acts 8: 37; Acts 9: 5-6;
Acts 10: 6; Acts 16: 31; Acts 17: 26; Acts 20: 25.

Rom. 1: 16; Rom. 5: 2; Rom. 9: 28; Rom. 11: 6; Rom. 13: 9;
Rom. 14: 6; Rom. 14: 9; Rom. 14: 21; Romans 15: 29; Rom. 16:
24.

1 Cor. 5: 7; 1 Cor. 6: 20; 1 Cor. 7: 39; 1 Cor. 10: 28; 1
Cor. 11: 24; 1 Cor. 15: 47; 1 Cor. 11: 29; 1 Cor. 16: 22; 1
Cor. 16: 23.

2 Cor. 4: 10.

Gal. 3: 1; Gal. 4: 7; Gal. 6: 15.

Eph. 3: 9.

THERE ARE OVER 80 MORE OMISSIONS...!!!!!

END OF QUOTE FROM BURTON'S BOOK

The above verses that Burton gave were in connection with the
NAS. You may want to check all those verses with the NIV or other
modern translations, to see what do with them.


THIS HAS ONLY BEEN A TIP OF THE ICEBERG STUDY ON THIS SUBJECT OF
THE BASIC ORIGIN OF TODAYS MODERN TRANSLATIONS.

............................

Compiled 2003

 
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