The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’
- Thread starter Tommy4Christ
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Zone,
You have placed your foot squarely in your mouth in your zeal to discredit me by association.
Instead of addressing directly the particular issues I raise you simply dismiss those issues and attempt to discredit the messenger. I remember you trying this once before when you tried to divert attention away from the content of my post and twist the thread into some sort of court room trial where you wanted me to provide the names of associates of mine as witnesses. If you have issue with my application of the Scripture then USE SCRIPTURE TO CORRECT ME.
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You accuse me of a lot of positions which are blatantly false and you put words into my mouth. I have been honest with you but you have been very conniving and dishonest with me. Especially in the context of the very clear positions I hold which you twist and misrepresent.
I wrote the following linked post to you in response to a post you made where you had twisted and misrepresented my clear positions. I took the time to address each point succinctly.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/55694-absurdity-born-sinner-8.html#post877809
Yet instead of dealing with that post you simply ignore it and move on to the next phase of diversion.
This most recent post of yours is more of the same due to the many false statements and unfounded assumptions. What you have done is basically jump the gun in your zeal and state things which have no basis in fact. Instead of having a dialogue and addressing my issues with Penal Substitution and Original Sin, you instead ignore that and attempt to divert attention by trying to find some fault with the messenger. That is exactly the same tactic that the Pharisees used against Jesus. Diversion to avoid discussing the actual message.
Penal Substitution was a development of the Reformers and is a doctrine which is only 400 years old. That is a HISTORICAL FACT and can be proved in any reputable encyclopedia.
The doctrine of Original Sin was introduced into Christian Orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo in the Fourth Century. That is also a HISTORICAL FACT and can be verified by reading his writings and that of Ante-Nicene Father's.
The Chris Hill that you found is not the Chris Hill I was referring to. You stated again that I blamed Paul Washer for my double-mindedness when I clearly addressed that my double-mindedness was my own fault, I was fully responsible, but that Reformed Theology gave me the perfect reasoning to remain that way. I was a very deceived individual. I have never been associated with the Promise Keepers like you assert and I in fact don't know much about them, I did read a book on them in the late 90's that I purchased through the Prophecy Club but that is so long ago I cannot hardly remember anything about it. I also did not understand, nor was I familiar with Hebrew 6:4-6 as you have asserted I was. That verse is clearly in the context of "Falling Away" and not in the context of a single sin anyway.
You say things like this...
I have no idea where you come up with such an assertion but it has no basis in fact. I did not understand the Gospel in 1999 nor did I understand it even 10 years later in 2009. In 1999 I was doing a lot of research in regards to the United Nations, Secret Societies and the utopian ideal of world government. Two years before I had become aware that evolution was false and since that time my world view had been shattered.
I had bought into the Total Depravity doctrine at that time as taught by Stewart Best yet much of my focus and activity was in the political/patriot/freedom arena, not preaching the Bible. I alluded to the fact that I thought there was truth in the Bible but I never claimed I was saved then. I claimed I "believed" but inside I knew my heart was not pure. I most certainly did not tell anyone about "repentance proven by deeds and faith in Jesus Christ." That concept did not exist in my mind because I did not truly study the Bible, I listened to preachers and would write down their proof texts. I would do word studies and compare verses but I did not read the epistles as letters and thus grasp the context.
It was through Paul Washer and David Eells that my belief in Total Depravity was reinforced and I also adopted the belief in the Reformed view of Predestination. Thus the elect would be saved no matter what and the non-elect were doomed no matter what they did.
Chris Hill led me to Mike's preaching because Chris had done an audio called "Repentance Unto Life" in which he taught that sin is a choice and that we are responsible for the choices that we make. Chris also taught that repentance meant ceasing from known sin, ie. fornicators stop fornicating. Chris spoke of a broken godly sorrow which worked the change of mind brought on by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Chris referred to the early church and what they taught and he spoke of a website with further information. I spent several hours doing key word searches and eventually found Standing the Gap which had some other Chris Hill audios on it. I listened to some of Mike's teachings and he went into great depth about the doctrines of the Reformation particularly that of "imputed righteousness" and the "pre-forgiveness of sin." I had never heard these doctrines taken to task before but it was intriguing to say the least. It was through listening to that material that I was compelled to actually read the writings of Polycarp, Ireneous, Justin Martyr etc. I was able to confirm that not a single Ante-Nicene Father taught that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to the believers account. Nor did any of them teach that Jesus was a "Penal" substitute for the sinner.
I also began to read the writings of Augustine and was able to confirm the basic contention made by preachers like Jesse Morrell, Kerrigan Skelly, Mike DeSario etc that he did indeed introduce Original Sin into Christian orthodoxy. You might call this a rejection "traditional Christianity" but the truth is that the Christianity taught in the pulpits today is anything but traditional.
If I ask someone to show me where Jesus taught that His obedience was going to be credited to your account there is silence.
If I ask someone to show me where the Bible specifically teaches such a doctrine there is silence. The best people can do is quote Rom 3:22 or 2Cor 5:21 and IMPLY that it is teaching that when it states no such thing.
The entire foundation of the Reformation is built upon this great exchange and yet it is not taught in the Bible. I know the doctrine gives security for ongoing rebellion and that is why those who have bought into it hook, line and sinker vehemently despise it being exposed. These people vehemently despise any allusion that the rebellion has to cease in repentance. To teach that the rebellion has ceased and that the heart of a Christian has been made pure is absolute heresy to the modern theological system.
It is an absolute fact that the early Church taught that the sins forgiven through the blood of Christ were past sins. Even Romans 3:25 specifically states "past sins."
I have issues with certain things I have read by some of the early church fathers but none of them taught that sins are forgiven in advance. That belief is a fruit of the Penal Substitution view of the atonement where Jesus literally absorbed your punishment.
Remember my issues with Penal Substitution? Do you care to address them?
1. Jesus did not teach anywhere that He was going to be punished in the place of the sinner.
2. There is no scripture reference in the entire Bible which states that God PUNISHED Jesus as a substitute for the sinner.
3. The parable of the unforgiving servant has the Master freely forgiving a debt WITHOUT the debt being paid by someone else. When the servant does not forgive his own servant the debt is reinstated. This parable totally contradicts Penal Substitution.
4. If Jesus was punished by God in the place of the sinner thus absorbing the wrath of God, then either He did not do this for everyone OR universal salvation is true. Therefore Penal Substitution forces the atonement to be strictly limited.
5. If Penal Substitution is true then sin and virtue are transferable properties as opposed to being moral choices.
6. If Penal Substitution is true then God does not actually forgive sins but rather appropriates them to the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.
7. Penal Substitution is clearly an invention of the Reformers as they added a judicial element to the Satisfaction view which was developed by Anselm. Even the smallest amount of research into the topic will bear this out.
Or is it preferable to avoid the issue and attack the messenger?
Anyway I could go on through your post but I am just banging my head against a wall because you have proved that you will just twist and misrepresent what I say and even invent things. All that is on you.
I simply contend that people are to forsake their evil and yield to God. Those who do that will be raised up to newness of life by the power of God. All glory to Him.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
You have placed your foot squarely in your mouth in your zeal to discredit me by association.
Instead of addressing directly the particular issues I raise you simply dismiss those issues and attempt to discredit the messenger. I remember you trying this once before when you tried to divert attention away from the content of my post and twist the thread into some sort of court room trial where you wanted me to provide the names of associates of mine as witnesses. If you have issue with my application of the Scripture then USE SCRIPTURE TO CORRECT ME.
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You accuse me of a lot of positions which are blatantly false and you put words into my mouth. I have been honest with you but you have been very conniving and dishonest with me. Especially in the context of the very clear positions I hold which you twist and misrepresent.
I wrote the following linked post to you in response to a post you made where you had twisted and misrepresented my clear positions. I took the time to address each point succinctly.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/55694-absurdity-born-sinner-8.html#post877809
Yet instead of dealing with that post you simply ignore it and move on to the next phase of diversion.
This most recent post of yours is more of the same due to the many false statements and unfounded assumptions. What you have done is basically jump the gun in your zeal and state things which have no basis in fact. Instead of having a dialogue and addressing my issues with Penal Substitution and Original Sin, you instead ignore that and attempt to divert attention by trying to find some fault with the messenger. That is exactly the same tactic that the Pharisees used against Jesus. Diversion to avoid discussing the actual message.
Penal Substitution was a development of the Reformers and is a doctrine which is only 400 years old. That is a HISTORICAL FACT and can be proved in any reputable encyclopedia.
The doctrine of Original Sin was introduced into Christian Orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo in the Fourth Century. That is also a HISTORICAL FACT and can be verified by reading his writings and that of Ante-Nicene Father's.
The Chris Hill that you found is not the Chris Hill I was referring to. You stated again that I blamed Paul Washer for my double-mindedness when I clearly addressed that my double-mindedness was my own fault, I was fully responsible, but that Reformed Theology gave me the perfect reasoning to remain that way. I was a very deceived individual. I have never been associated with the Promise Keepers like you assert and I in fact don't know much about them, I did read a book on them in the late 90's that I purchased through the Prophecy Club but that is so long ago I cannot hardly remember anything about it. I also did not understand, nor was I familiar with Hebrew 6:4-6 as you have asserted I was. That verse is clearly in the context of "Falling Away" and not in the context of a single sin anyway.
You say things like this...
I have no idea where you come up with such an assertion but it has no basis in fact. I did not understand the Gospel in 1999 nor did I understand it even 10 years later in 2009. In 1999 I was doing a lot of research in regards to the United Nations, Secret Societies and the utopian ideal of world government. Two years before I had become aware that evolution was false and since that time my world view had been shattered.
I had bought into the Total Depravity doctrine at that time as taught by Stewart Best yet much of my focus and activity was in the political/patriot/freedom arena, not preaching the Bible. I alluded to the fact that I thought there was truth in the Bible but I never claimed I was saved then. I claimed I "believed" but inside I knew my heart was not pure. I most certainly did not tell anyone about "repentance proven by deeds and faith in Jesus Christ." That concept did not exist in my mind because I did not truly study the Bible, I listened to preachers and would write down their proof texts. I would do word studies and compare verses but I did not read the epistles as letters and thus grasp the context.
It was through Paul Washer and David Eells that my belief in Total Depravity was reinforced and I also adopted the belief in the Reformed view of Predestination. Thus the elect would be saved no matter what and the non-elect were doomed no matter what they did.
Chris Hill led me to Mike's preaching because Chris had done an audio called "Repentance Unto Life" in which he taught that sin is a choice and that we are responsible for the choices that we make. Chris also taught that repentance meant ceasing from known sin, ie. fornicators stop fornicating. Chris spoke of a broken godly sorrow which worked the change of mind brought on by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Chris referred to the early church and what they taught and he spoke of a website with further information. I spent several hours doing key word searches and eventually found Standing the Gap which had some other Chris Hill audios on it. I listened to some of Mike's teachings and he went into great depth about the doctrines of the Reformation particularly that of "imputed righteousness" and the "pre-forgiveness of sin." I had never heard these doctrines taken to task before but it was intriguing to say the least. It was through listening to that material that I was compelled to actually read the writings of Polycarp, Ireneous, Justin Martyr etc. I was able to confirm that not a single Ante-Nicene Father taught that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to the believers account. Nor did any of them teach that Jesus was a "Penal" substitute for the sinner.
I also began to read the writings of Augustine and was able to confirm the basic contention made by preachers like Jesse Morrell, Kerrigan Skelly, Mike DeSario etc that he did indeed introduce Original Sin into Christian orthodoxy. You might call this a rejection "traditional Christianity" but the truth is that the Christianity taught in the pulpits today is anything but traditional.
If I ask someone to show me where Jesus taught that His obedience was going to be credited to your account there is silence.
If I ask someone to show me where the Bible specifically teaches such a doctrine there is silence. The best people can do is quote Rom 3:22 or 2Cor 5:21 and IMPLY that it is teaching that when it states no such thing.
The entire foundation of the Reformation is built upon this great exchange and yet it is not taught in the Bible. I know the doctrine gives security for ongoing rebellion and that is why those who have bought into it hook, line and sinker vehemently despise it being exposed. These people vehemently despise any allusion that the rebellion has to cease in repentance. To teach that the rebellion has ceased and that the heart of a Christian has been made pure is absolute heresy to the modern theological system.
It is an absolute fact that the early Church taught that the sins forgiven through the blood of Christ were past sins. Even Romans 3:25 specifically states "past sins."
I have issues with certain things I have read by some of the early church fathers but none of them taught that sins are forgiven in advance. That belief is a fruit of the Penal Substitution view of the atonement where Jesus literally absorbed your punishment.
Remember my issues with Penal Substitution? Do you care to address them?
1. Jesus did not teach anywhere that He was going to be punished in the place of the sinner.
2. There is no scripture reference in the entire Bible which states that God PUNISHED Jesus as a substitute for the sinner.
3. The parable of the unforgiving servant has the Master freely forgiving a debt WITHOUT the debt being paid by someone else. When the servant does not forgive his own servant the debt is reinstated. This parable totally contradicts Penal Substitution.
4. If Jesus was punished by God in the place of the sinner thus absorbing the wrath of God, then either He did not do this for everyone OR universal salvation is true. Therefore Penal Substitution forces the atonement to be strictly limited.
5. If Penal Substitution is true then sin and virtue are transferable properties as opposed to being moral choices.
6. If Penal Substitution is true then God does not actually forgive sins but rather appropriates them to the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.
7. Penal Substitution is clearly an invention of the Reformers as they added a judicial element to the Satisfaction view which was developed by Anselm. Even the smallest amount of research into the topic will bear this out.
Or is it preferable to avoid the issue and attack the messenger?
Anyway I could go on through your post but I am just banging my head against a wall because you have proved that you will just twist and misrepresent what I say and even invent things. All that is on you.
I simply contend that people are to forsake their evil and yield to God. Those who do that will be raised up to newness of life by the power of God. All glory to Him.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
i replied to that post and everything else. i combined the two.
i made a document on my computer combining both your posts, all your sources, and your old internet writings.
i tried to remember all the posts you've made here.
no, you haven't been honest.
no i didn't words in your mouth.
you're incapable of being honest. just like John said.
i'm tired of Skinski and his heresies.
you're on your own (er...you have 3 or 4 others who agree with you).
i just wasted another day on Skinski.
anyone who listens to you deserves what they get.
i made a document on my computer combining both your posts, all your sources, and your old internet writings.
i tried to remember all the posts you've made here.
no, you haven't been honest.
no i didn't words in your mouth.
you're incapable of being honest. just like John said.
i'm tired of Skinski and his heresies.
you're on your own (er...you have 3 or 4 others who agree with you).
i just wasted another day on Skinski.
anyone who listens to you deserves what they get.
Isaiah 53
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
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I have not seen, or read, or been witness too a person who claims infallibility who isn't drenched in spiritual pride.
No, I know not one who holds to glorification in this life(total perfection), that can share the gospel to any effect.
They tend to group in small numbers, with the head righteous one being the 'king rat' of Holiness.
Something about spiritual pride attaches to their garments, and makes all others run except those who they trespass
the earth to make twice the son of belial that they are.
No, I know not one who holds to glorification in this life(total perfection), that can share the gospel to any effect.
They tend to group in small numbers, with the head righteous one being the 'king rat' of Holiness.
Something about spiritual pride attaches to their garments, and makes all others run except those who they trespass
the earth to make twice the son of belial that they are.
EG - the church (ekklesia) > IS Israel.
all Israel (the church) will be saved before and at the Second Advent.
unbelieving anybody else whatever tribal/national/flesh/religious affiliation they hold to won't be > it's by faith not by Law or race or Land title anything.
there's no 1,000 years....no need for it.
no GAPS.
love you
z
all Israel (the church) will be saved before and at the Second Advent.
unbelieving anybody else whatever tribal/national/flesh/religious affiliation they hold to won't be > it's by faith not by Law or race or Land title anything.
there's no 1,000 years....no need for it.
no GAPS.
love you
z
E
if the jews aren't there, who is?
the answer to this question will unravel the whole dispie house of cards.
the answer to this question will unravel the whole dispie house of cards.
The gentiles have held it since babylon came to power. Isreal has never since held it except as slaves who were granted permission by the gentile power to use it. It was never theirs
E
Zone, Isreal is my enemy, because they reject the gospel. but beloved because of the promise.
The Church is not Jacob, this is an old catholic wivestale.
That is not what the passage says, Your twisting it. This same Isreal is our enemy. And they are not gentile.
Love you too. But there are gaps. And there will be a return of Isreal to her former state. But not until she repents. Saying Isreal will be restored is not saying unbelieving jews will be saved in unbelief. It is saying God will keep his promise to them AFTER they repent.