[note: I will TRY to fit my responses into just TWO posts... but it may take THREE... we'll see ]
1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
Sounds like an argument from something like D. MacPherson's book [/publications], which argument I believe is flawed:
--Ezek13:20 is NOT a "rapture" context;
--Ezek13:20 is making the point that the LORD God will "DELIVER" His people "out of your [/their] hand";
--I've made posts about this passage in the past (so won't elaborate further here)
2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
Pre-tribbers also AGREE that Jesus will indeed be COMING "after the tribulation" of those days (that is, after the GREAT tribulation, i.e. after the second HALF of the future Trib yrs); Pre-tribbers fully acknowledge this
--however, Matthew 24:29-31 (and parallels), re: "GREAT" trumpet, corresponds with that of Isaiah 27:
9,
12-13[/Rom11:27[,25,15&Dan9:24(parts)]... (read there in Isa27:9,12-13: WHO, and IN WHAT MANNER THEY ARE 'GATHERED,' and TO WHERE and FOR WHAT PURPOSE... not to mention what the Gospels tell regarding "BY WHOM" they will be gathered--in every way DISTINCT from "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" / "
OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [1Th4:17/2Th2:1 speaking solely of "the Church
WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not all other saints of all OTHER time-periods, to whom "Rapture" does NOT pertain nor apply])
3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
Right. At the time-slot surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH... this is indeed the case (which pertains to the time-slot of the "WHEAT harvest"... I propose to you, for your consideration, that WE/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest):
--there are TWO DISTINCT "FIRSTFRUIT" spoken of in Lev23; the 144,000 (future) of Rev14:4 are said to be "firstfruit," but these correspond to the SECOND of the TWO "FIRSTFRUIT" that Lev23 speaks to, i.e. the one in v.17 which (v.17 as part of the WHEAT harvest) says, "
TWO loaves" and "baken
WITH LEAVEN"<--neither of these is how WE/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are stated to be /as being (or are described as). NO!
--James 2:18 says, "A
KIND of firstfruit" (agreeing with the point that there is MORE THAN ONE "KIND" of "FIRSTFRUIT" both in Scripture and in nature);
--the sequence of the gathering spoken of in Matt13 (which passage was the BASIS of their LATER question to Jesus in Matt24:3 [re: His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Subject]) takes place in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"
4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
No, notice carefully it says, "by letters
AS [G5613] from us"--huge difference! (i.e. "AS THOUGH from us"... or "POSING TO BE from us"--NOT the one he HAD already written them! But FAKE ONES
purporting to be from us, but which WERE NOT! That's what v.2 is saying.)
--Verse 2 is NOT saying "[do not be deceived] BY LETTERS FROM US" as you are suggesting it is saying. You left out a very important word (which thereby changes the MEANING of this text); not advisable
--Consider this quote from BLB about this Greek word for
"AS [G5613]" here: "β.
to a quality which is supposed, pretended, reigned, assumed: ὡς ἁμαρτωλός κρίνομαι, Romans 3:7; ὡς πονηρόν, Luke 6:22; add, 1 Corinthians 4:7; 1 Corinthians 8:7; 2 Corinthians 6:8-10; 2 Corinthians 11:15; 2 Corinthians 13:7; 1 Peter 2:12;
frequently it can be rendered as if, as though, Acts 3:12; Acts 23:15, 20; Acts 27:30; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 10:14; 2 Corinthians 11:17; Colossians 2:20; Hebrews 11:27; Hebrews 13:3; ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δἰ ἡμῶν, namely, γεγραμμενης,
2 Thessalonians 2:2." (so, "ASSUMED to be from us" or "PRETENDED to be from us" or "SUPPOSEDLY from us" or "PURPORTING to be from us," etc);
--v.15 basically is saying, BELIEVE US / WHAT WE TAUGHT YOU... do NOT believe THEM (the false claimants v.2 is warning about); ... by v.15's saying, "stand fast, and hold the traditions [/teachings] WHICH YE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, whether by word, OR
OUR EPISTLE"--hold to THAT (not any FAKES that may be circulating! [v.2's warning about
those!])
5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
This passage pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (US), not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)
6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
The word
"after" in this chpt/verse (the words "after" and "Satan" are used in v.9) is not speaking as "
SEQUENTIALLY AFTER," as you are suggesting it states, but rather "whose coming [re: the man of sin] is
AFTER [/ACCORDING TO - G2596] the working of Satan with all _____..."
(see G2596 -
kata -
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2596/kjv/tr/0-1/ )--this is the ONLY VERSE with anything about "SATAN" (coupled with the idea of "AFTER");
--However, Pre-tribbers AGREE that Jesus will do the "
MANIFESTION of the presence/
parousia of Him" (v.8b) AFTER a bunch of other things spelled out in this text (including the 3 points-in-time that the "man of sin" and his doings speak to [in this text], i.e. BEGINNING of the 7 yrs, MIDDLE of the 7 yrs, and END of the 7 yrs--perfectly corresponding to SAME in all other passages speaking to this/him/that person or on THAT Subject [i.e. TRIB stuff]); but v.8b "MANIFESTATION of"
is distinct from what v.1 speaks to, which pertains ONLY to "US" and NO ONE ELSE ("
OUR"... and UP THERE!)
7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
It's from a version written in a different language [back in the 400s] from that of our English version. So what.
--Originally in the Greek, as "
harpagēsometha"... but nobody (or "few") would grasp what we're talking about if we said, "I am eager for '
harpagēsometha'!!" People would be like, "huh?!?!" lol
8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
This passage ^ is solely (per context) pertaining to (to/for/about) "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to/for/about all other saints of all OTHER time-periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints... none of whom He is "MARRYING"... though they are indeed "saints" also);
--The Church which is His body is the ONLY ONE having been promised this "
harpagēsometha" (it connects with that which will then take place per 3:13!);
--this text (not to mention, context [1Th3:13 also!]) is ABOUT MORE than just the "shall RISE [/be resurrected] first" (
before the next thing in the text THEN occurs);
--also "resurrection" is defined as "to STAND AGAIN [on the earth]"... so this passage is about MORE than simply
that, alone!
9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
Distinct context.
10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
"... of 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'," to/for/about whom this passage SOLELY pertains... not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods
11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
Rev20:11-15, as I understand it, is the judgment of "THE DEAD [of all times]"... that is, the "[UNsaved] DEAD" of all times (those are the ONLY ones who will NOT have been "resurrected" at LEAST 1000 years prior to this point in the chronology--ALL SAINTS
will have been, prior to the commencement of those 1000 years [which MK commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth]!)
12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
The seven judgment trumpets (straddling the two halves of the Trib--with SEALS preceding, and VIALS following) are distinct from both "the last trumpet" and the "GREAT trumpet" (the one I pointed out in response to point #2, above)
13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
The "announcement" will well-precede His actual RETURN to the earth; As I see it, this "announcement" occurs
on a specific calendar date (pertaining to "____ of revelation" [
particular date]), but after the "announcement," there are yet seven VIALS which must unfold upon the earth before His "RETURN" to the earth at the Armaggedon time-slot;
--the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" occurs prior to His Second Coming to the earth, by SOME TIME (see the 7 Vials, which themselves TAKE SOME TIME to unfold upon the earth); IOW, the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe [/1st Vial]" is not taking place AT THE VERY END of the 7 yrs, when Christ RETURNS to the earth (Rev19)
[continues in the next post]