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S
I agree seven hundred percent. He's talking about the tribulation, and not forsaking Him in the midst of it. He told one of the churches in Revelation:
Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Tell me, oh wise man who is endued with knowledge from above (James 3:13), when does a believer become a new creature in Christ with the old things passed away and all things become new (2Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15)? When does the mercy of God through the Holy Spirit regenerate them (Titus 3:5 ) and when are they truly born again of the Spirit and the word (John 3:5)? When do they receive the gift of God's righteousness (Rom 5:14-21)? Do you really understand what this passage in (Rom 5) is talking about? If you believe their must be fruit and works to justify the believer's faith in Christ for salvation, what is this fruit and what are the works that must be seen and observed by others that proves their salvation is genuine? Be specific.
Any reward given to the believer is based upon an accomplishment of the believer through grace. This crown of life is given as a reward for the martyr who is faithful unto death. The reward is eternal but it is not a reward of eternal life. Eternal life is a gift of God, given to all those that believe upon the name of Jesus Christ for salvation (Rom 6:23). Eternal life is not a reward because we accomplished nothing to attain it. Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross, through His death, burial and resurrection, the only way for us to believe unto righteousness (Rom 3:22). When we believed upon the accomplishment of His finished work (John 19:30) we received by faith eternal life as a gift of mercy and grace through Him.
Eph 2:8 ' For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God'.
The believer is rewarded for his works but is given a gift of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
Eph 2:8 ' For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God'.
The believer is rewarded for his works but is given a gift of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
This gift of salvation is not something that has to be opened up or maintained. It is imputed to the believer without works. Imputed means that God has put it on the believer's account when they believed.
John 10:28 'And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand'. If Paul Washer studied this verse alone in the Greek, with all of the tenses, moods and voices that are involved with the verbs alone, he would have to change his entire message.
How many of us, who believed, were perfect and without sin when we received the salvation of God, which is the forgiveness and cleansing of all sin? NONE! How many of us were righteous? NONE! How many of us did good? NONE! How many are perfect and without sin when they die and are absent from the body and present with the Lord? NONE! It says in (Col 2:10) that we are complete in Him. That has to do with our position in Christ but not our experience. We are perfect in Christ positionally before the Father but not experientially because there is a work going on to form Christ in us (Phil 1:6, Gal 4:19).We need to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ (2Pt 3:18) and let the plan of God put us through trials so that our experience becomes what we are positionally little by little (1Pt 1:3-9).
We are becoming what God has already made us to be. When the believer dies, all his sins have been paid for by Christ whether he has repented of all of them or not. Jesus Christ paid for every sin of the believer (including the ones that were not repented of before the believer dies). If Jesus Christ has put away all sin, then the believer can't die in their sin because He has put it away and they are dead to it (Rom 6:2,11). The righteousness of God and grace does not advocate that any believer live in sin, God forbid (Titus 2:12, Rom 6:1,2)! If a believer was living in sin when they died, they were not receiving grace so they did not have grace to die or they died without dying grace. There sin won't keep them from heaven because God will not impute sin but has imputed His righteousness to them when they believed (Rom 4:8-24, James 2:23). Will they be judged by God for the sin they were living in when they died, NO! Because that sin was already judged and paid for by the death of Christ. The believer will be judged according to his works not his sin. However, his sin could have kept him from the good works that he could have been rewarded for, but instead will suffer loss (1Cor 3:9-12, 2Cor 5:10).
He died for us when we were sinners, He saved us when we were dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13) and all that was by grace, but for some reason, according to some of you, if we have a problem with any sin after we have believed upon Christ and we die, there will be no grace to receive us and we will be rejected. So God accepted us as sinners when we believed because of what His Son did for us, but now He is going to ignore what His Son did for us and reject us based upon a problem with sin? Who can be saved then? I guarantee you that there is sin your life (and Paul Washer's) right now and the love of God is covering that sin (James 5:20, 1Pt 4:8) and if you died with that unrepented sin that God is covering, you would die in your sin and go to hell according to some of you but not according to grace that is based upon what Christ did to that sin on your behalf before you even committed it. You and others have rejected that kind of grace because you want something to do with your own salvation instead of it totally being of the Lord and through the merits of what Christ did on Calvary.
Mercy and grace is totally from God and has nothing to do with you or your faith except to receive it. Faith gives us access to mercy and grace (Rom 5:2). Mercy has taken away what we deserve because of sin and grace gives us what we don't deserve when we sin (Rom 5:15,17,20). No one can say they will never sin because the old sin nature is still with us and we won't be rid of it until we get our new glorified bodies (Phil 3:21). As a believer, your sin can not separate you from God in terms of salvation or from God's righteousness or from eternal life, because they were a gift from God imputed to you without works when you believed upon the name of the only begotten Son of God. Your sin can separate you from your fellowship with God, but you have an advocate in those cases through Jesus Christ (1John 2:1) and you can receive grace and confess your sin and be restored instantly in your fellowship with the Father and the Son with no works and no probation, just faith.
If you do not understand what has been said in this post it is because it is not in your heart and to get it there you have to mix faith and believe (Rom 10:17, Heb 4:2). If any man have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit will testify and witness the truth in your heart.
1Jn 5:6-11 'This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son'.
If any man resist the truth then they are resisting the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). I give you the verses and you don't look them up because you think you know them, that is familiarity. Those verses are given to us as Spirit and life (John 6:63). I am preaching and you better believe it, because some of you are all messed up and you are offending and causing others to stumble and to question the grace of God. Others that don't like what I have said I suggest that you check out the scriptures and take it to God and ask Him if I am telling the truth or if I am lying. Because if I am lying to you, then I am lying to the Holy Spirit that is in you and that would not be good for me as it was not good for the victims of (Acts 5). If I am telling you the truth, the Spirit (along with the water of the word and the blood of Christ) will bear witness of the truth and that no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). Satan is the father of all lies from the beginning and there is no truth in him (John 8:44-47). If I have lied to you then that lie has come from him and I have no truth in me (1Jn 2:4). I wonder if Paul Washer and those that preach as he does are willing to risk that they are not of the truth because of the message they preach! What if the message they preach is one that has fallen from grace and blasphemed the Son and the finished work of Christ? You and the Holy Spirit through the grace of God will have to be the judge of that.
John 10:28 'And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand'. If Paul Washer studied this verse alone in the Greek, with all of the tenses, moods and voices that are involved with the verbs alone, he would have to change his entire message.
How many of us, who believed, were perfect and without sin when we received the salvation of God, which is the forgiveness and cleansing of all sin? NONE! How many of us were righteous? NONE! How many of us did good? NONE! How many are perfect and without sin when they die and are absent from the body and present with the Lord? NONE! It says in (Col 2:10) that we are complete in Him. That has to do with our position in Christ but not our experience. We are perfect in Christ positionally before the Father but not experientially because there is a work going on to form Christ in us (Phil 1:6, Gal 4:19).We need to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ (2Pt 3:18) and let the plan of God put us through trials so that our experience becomes what we are positionally little by little (1Pt 1:3-9).
We are becoming what God has already made us to be. When the believer dies, all his sins have been paid for by Christ whether he has repented of all of them or not. Jesus Christ paid for every sin of the believer (including the ones that were not repented of before the believer dies). If Jesus Christ has put away all sin, then the believer can't die in their sin because He has put it away and they are dead to it (Rom 6:2,11). The righteousness of God and grace does not advocate that any believer live in sin, God forbid (Titus 2:12, Rom 6:1,2)! If a believer was living in sin when they died, they were not receiving grace so they did not have grace to die or they died without dying grace. There sin won't keep them from heaven because God will not impute sin but has imputed His righteousness to them when they believed (Rom 4:8-24, James 2:23). Will they be judged by God for the sin they were living in when they died, NO! Because that sin was already judged and paid for by the death of Christ. The believer will be judged according to his works not his sin. However, his sin could have kept him from the good works that he could have been rewarded for, but instead will suffer loss (1Cor 3:9-12, 2Cor 5:10).
He died for us when we were sinners, He saved us when we were dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13) and all that was by grace, but for some reason, according to some of you, if we have a problem with any sin after we have believed upon Christ and we die, there will be no grace to receive us and we will be rejected. So God accepted us as sinners when we believed because of what His Son did for us, but now He is going to ignore what His Son did for us and reject us based upon a problem with sin? Who can be saved then? I guarantee you that there is sin your life (and Paul Washer's) right now and the love of God is covering that sin (James 5:20, 1Pt 4:8) and if you died with that unrepented sin that God is covering, you would die in your sin and go to hell according to some of you but not according to grace that is based upon what Christ did to that sin on your behalf before you even committed it. You and others have rejected that kind of grace because you want something to do with your own salvation instead of it totally being of the Lord and through the merits of what Christ did on Calvary.
Mercy and grace is totally from God and has nothing to do with you or your faith except to receive it. Faith gives us access to mercy and grace (Rom 5:2). Mercy has taken away what we deserve because of sin and grace gives us what we don't deserve when we sin (Rom 5:15,17,20). No one can say they will never sin because the old sin nature is still with us and we won't be rid of it until we get our new glorified bodies (Phil 3:21). As a believer, your sin can not separate you from God in terms of salvation or from God's righteousness or from eternal life, because they were a gift from God imputed to you without works when you believed upon the name of the only begotten Son of God. Your sin can separate you from your fellowship with God, but you have an advocate in those cases through Jesus Christ (1John 2:1) and you can receive grace and confess your sin and be restored instantly in your fellowship with the Father and the Son with no works and no probation, just faith.
If you do not understand what has been said in this post it is because it is not in your heart and to get it there you have to mix faith and believe (Rom 10:17, Heb 4:2). If any man have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit will testify and witness the truth in your heart.
1Jn 5:6-11 'This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son'.
If any man resist the truth then they are resisting the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). I give you the verses and you don't look them up because you think you know them, that is familiarity. Those verses are given to us as Spirit and life (John 6:63). I am preaching and you better believe it, because some of you are all messed up and you are offending and causing others to stumble and to question the grace of God. Others that don't like what I have said I suggest that you check out the scriptures and take it to God and ask Him if I am telling the truth or if I am lying. Because if I am lying to you, then I am lying to the Holy Spirit that is in you and that would not be good for me as it was not good for the victims of (Acts 5). If I am telling you the truth, the Spirit (along with the water of the word and the blood of Christ) will bear witness of the truth and that no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). Satan is the father of all lies from the beginning and there is no truth in him (John 8:44-47). If I have lied to you then that lie has come from him and I have no truth in me (1Jn 2:4). I wonder if Paul Washer and those that preach as he does are willing to risk that they are not of the truth because of the message they preach! What if the message they preach is one that has fallen from grace and blasphemed the Son and the finished work of Christ? You and the Holy Spirit through the grace of God will have to be the judge of that.
Another verse:
"Faith without works is dead"
Let us examine the surrounding verses:
(Jas 2:16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? subject is an act of helping another... daily service
(Jas 2:17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(Jas 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
(Jas 2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(Jas 2:20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(Jas 2:21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? - again.. an act of service.. not receiving eternal life
(Jas 2:22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
(Jas 2:23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
(Jas 2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(Jas 2:25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Another example of an act of service to God.. not receiving eternal life.
(Jas 2:26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Compare these scriptures with these ones: (same bible by the way - KJV)
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(Rom 4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? He found nothing!
(Rom 4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. He has nothing if he were justified by works!
(Rom 4:3) For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(Rom 4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Works = debt!
(Rom 4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Work not.. but believe in Jesus-- justification!
So does scripture contradict? No!
The James verses are not about eternal salvation.. Galatians and Romans are!
Justification in James-- is about an acceptable act .. that God is happy with
Justification in Galations and Romans is about being justified by the faith of Christ when we believe in Him
"Faith without works is dead"
Let us examine the surrounding verses:
(Jas 2:16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? subject is an act of helping another... daily service
(Jas 2:17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(Jas 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
(Jas 2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(Jas 2:20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(Jas 2:21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? - again.. an act of service.. not receiving eternal life
(Jas 2:22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
(Jas 2:23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
(Jas 2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(Jas 2:25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Another example of an act of service to God.. not receiving eternal life.
(Jas 2:26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Compare these scriptures with these ones: (same bible by the way - KJV)
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(Rom 4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? He found nothing!
(Rom 4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. He has nothing if he were justified by works!
(Rom 4:3) For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(Rom 4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Works = debt!
(Rom 4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Work not.. but believe in Jesus-- justification!
So does scripture contradict? No!
The James verses are not about eternal salvation.. Galatians and Romans are!
Justification in James-- is about an acceptable act .. that God is happy with
Justification in Galations and Romans is about being justified by the faith of Christ when we believe in Him
Maby Im not reading it all correctly but I have always believed you all are correct. Just as there are three parts one God the task or acceptance is mutifaceted. Hope I spelled that right. The message I have recieved is that yes I am saved by The sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus and his resurection. Ultimatly by his grace. By this all that I am, is and are the works of our Father in heaven. The clay that he molds. By his grace, his creation and his spirit, because I have acceped Jesus, all I do, all I am, all I will be is because of him. My obediance, my works, my life becomes because of his grace. Jesus was with God our father from before creation, God our Father knew me and created me, and by his spirit I am a part of him, created even now. Through this I bare fruit. Or am I missing something here or not saying it correctlly? God bless, pickles
S
I now think that this is an exercise in futility. You people insist on holding onto your false doctrines that allow you to live any way you want and still claim salvation. This may be the last post I ever make on this website. I just want to say that a day will come when you will swing out into eternity, over the fires of hell, holding onto your profession of faith. Let's hope that when that day comes, it will support you.
You are discouraged because you are holding onto a concept concerning a 'profession of faith' and condemning those that you can't even examine in terms of fruit or good works. There will be those that have their profession of faith and say that they believe in God that will be rejected at the Great White Throne judgment because they do not have the Holy Spirit nor the righteousness of God and never believed that God had raised Christ from the died. It is not our place to judge those in this life, anymore then it is the angels job to separate the wheat from the tares until the appointed time. What our Lord has said about the straight and narrow and few there be that find it, is absolute truth and it will be as God has said. To look at each one that has made a profession of faith in Christ and to examine their lives and claim them to be unbelievers because you see no fruit could be premature on your part. There have been many that believe that had no apparent fruit for years and God raised them up at the appointed time to bear His fruit. There are those that have come to this site that can bear witness to this very thing.
'By their fruits you shall know them' What is the fruit that is being referred to here? The good fruit that comes from the good tree, what is that fruit and what does it look like? The evil tree and its fruit, what is that fruit and what does it look like? The fruit that we are to bear as believers that will remain, what is it and what does it look like? If a believer speaks an evil thing against another believer, is that good fruit or evil fruit from the fruit of my lips? It is evil fruit that did not come from abiding in Christ, the vine. The believer needs to put it away and stop speaking evil of his brother because love thinks no evil of any man. If that 'professing believer' were to continue to speak evil of his brother, we should have nothing to do with him that he would be ashamed and turn from his evil communication. If you give a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple or you as a mother take care of your home and do that unto the Lord, you will be rewarded and that is good fruit.
Those that say, 'Lord, Lord, we have done many wonderful works in thy name and cast out devils' were doing some kind of works during their life but these works had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. They did not say that they had trusted in Christ for their salvation but instead trusted in the works that they professed before the Lord. They had a form of godliness but were not wrought of God. Their works bear the fruit of iniquity and they will be rewarded according to their works or the fruit of their doings. There will be believers, whose works will be burned up at the judgment seat (bema) of Christ, that will take place at the rapture, and they will suffer the loss of rewards but will be saved as by fire. These believers had no fruit or works to be rewarded and they will suffer loss, but Christ will be their portion for eternity. Fruit does not determine salvation, belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ and Him crucified does. You can be saved, bear no fruit and be present with the Lord when you die, but you will suffer loss because there is no fruitful works to be rewarded for. These believers could be the ones that you deem unsaved and condemn to hell. God has accepted them because they believed upon His Son and received the fruit of God righteousness that was sown in peace and imputed to them without works.
'By their fruits you shall know them' What is the fruit that is being referred to here? The good fruit that comes from the good tree, what is that fruit and what does it look like? The evil tree and its fruit, what is that fruit and what does it look like? The fruit that we are to bear as believers that will remain, what is it and what does it look like? If a believer speaks an evil thing against another believer, is that good fruit or evil fruit from the fruit of my lips? It is evil fruit that did not come from abiding in Christ, the vine. The believer needs to put it away and stop speaking evil of his brother because love thinks no evil of any man. If that 'professing believer' were to continue to speak evil of his brother, we should have nothing to do with him that he would be ashamed and turn from his evil communication. If you give a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple or you as a mother take care of your home and do that unto the Lord, you will be rewarded and that is good fruit.
Those that say, 'Lord, Lord, we have done many wonderful works in thy name and cast out devils' were doing some kind of works during their life but these works had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. They did not say that they had trusted in Christ for their salvation but instead trusted in the works that they professed before the Lord. They had a form of godliness but were not wrought of God. Their works bear the fruit of iniquity and they will be rewarded according to their works or the fruit of their doings. There will be believers, whose works will be burned up at the judgment seat (bema) of Christ, that will take place at the rapture, and they will suffer the loss of rewards but will be saved as by fire. These believers had no fruit or works to be rewarded and they will suffer loss, but Christ will be their portion for eternity. Fruit does not determine salvation, belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ and Him crucified does. You can be saved, bear no fruit and be present with the Lord when you die, but you will suffer loss because there is no fruitful works to be rewarded for. These believers could be the ones that you deem unsaved and condemn to hell. God has accepted them because they believed upon His Son and received the fruit of God righteousness that was sown in peace and imputed to them without works.
L
SOF, It just seems to me that you contradict yourself:
So which is it? You said in one of your posts that works are only an assurance that your profession of faith is real. Maybe you need that assurance, but I don't (and I don't say that smart mouthed, it's just true....I know what God did within my heart one day 12 years ago). So are my works to show others that I'm a believer? Because I know lots of people that do many many good works (and some of them even go to church), but they don't know Jesus as their Lord and Savior. And some of them do know Jesus and are saved, but do the works for all the wrong reasons.
I in no way am promoting living a lifestyle of sin while claiming salvation. You lose out on so much in this life by doing that – a peace from God and a communion with Him. I’m just saying that you can’t know by a person's fruits that they are saved or not.
So which is it? You said in one of your posts that works are only an assurance that your profession of faith is real. Maybe you need that assurance, but I don't (and I don't say that smart mouthed, it's just true....I know what God did within my heart one day 12 years ago). So are my works to show others that I'm a believer? Because I know lots of people that do many many good works (and some of them even go to church), but they don't know Jesus as their Lord and Savior. And some of them do know Jesus and are saved, but do the works for all the wrong reasons.
I in no way am promoting living a lifestyle of sin while claiming salvation. You lose out on so much in this life by doing that – a peace from God and a communion with Him. I’m just saying that you can’t know by a person's fruits that they are saved or not.
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