The "Reformation"

pottersclay · Mar 13, 2018

It's so hard for me to be the person Jesus wants me to be when I see this deception going on. Love your enemy is the furthest thing on my heart.
So many well meaning people being dragged to the pit. The world sees it as the true church. Always in the lime light.
Thanks for your reply brother.

RexCA · Mar 14, 2018

Magenta said:

Choosing to ignore what I say because it does not fit one's own understanding of Catholicism does not make it a lie. At the same time there are many ignorant Catholics who do indeed use poor vocabulary that likely confuses non Catholics as to what Catholic belief is(such as the person you noted who said the hail mary is not a prayer). However I have never met nor would I fit under the fold of Catholics who lie about what the church teaches there is literally no point in such behavior as all it causes is deception and deeper confusion. And just because you folks refuse to acknowledge the points I bring up and claim that I am making things up or stir the pot deeper in regards to myths of what the Catholic Church is does not make me a liar. My intent really is not to attempt to bring a single one of you away from your said religious beliefs rather it is to open the mind to a little historical thought. What appears happened however is that not a single person complied rather anti-Catholic rhetoric was spread as a means to argue against anything I initially said everything about that is fully illogical. And fare enough if that is how we chose to respond I am not angered rather I am in shock.

RexCA · Mar 14, 2018

Dino246 said:

Unlike on earlier replies I am not going to argue against this I can see how this could be interpreted as fallacious however if you read a little bit further down you would notice that I did make mention of the history behind the crusades and inquisition, and how to use such events as a rebuttal of Catholicism alone is illogical.

MarcR · Mar 14, 2018

RexCA said:

The actions of kings or of non-church or even para-church are not comparable to the systematic policy of the leadership of a body that calls itself a church.
The crusades killed far more Christians and Jews than Moslems and was IN NO WAY obedient to Jesus command to love our enemies. If obedience to Jesus would have resulted in the demise of Christianity then God has no power to protect the Church. I can't accept that! God does indeed have the power to honor His promises.

RexCA;3492216 Call no man father? How do you respond to St. Paul referring to himself as an appointed teacher and spiritual father for the church in that same verse it says not to call any man rabbi said:

How do you respond to St. Paul referring to himself as an appointed teacher and spiritual father for the church

Paul NEVER called himself a 'father' to the church. Paul frequently refers to Timothy as his son because there was an adoption whether or not it was formal.

RexCA;3492216 Scripture never says a "pastor" "must" be the husband of one wife rather in the verse you are speaking of it is saying a bishop must have no more than one wife we can come to this conclusion because St. Paul himself in the scriptures makes note of his own celibacy. [B said:

Nehemiah6 · Mar 14, 2018

RexCA said:

Rex,

What should really shock you is your own willingness to defend a corrupt system of False Christianity. Why don't you read the writings of William Tyndale, an outstanding Christian who happened to be Catholic and was martyred because he exposed the corruption of the RCC.

"For if God be on our side, what matter maketh it who be against us, be they bishops, cardinals, popes, or whatsoever names they will?"

Read more: https://www.christianquotes.info/quotes-by-author/william-tyndale-quotes/#ixzz59hUW0ykY

RexCA · Mar 15, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Once again claiming that I am willingly defending "corruption" merely because you believe that to be the case is a false premise. Further more I would dare say that the fact stands that you have yet to give one example as to why the Catholic Church is corrupt without repeating yourself by stating multiple times over "the Catholic Church is corrupt." At the same time it should be pointed out that William Tyndale was put to death by the British government by orders of King Henry VIII shortly before the English reformation not the Catholic Church or any of her religious authorities therein.

RexCA · Mar 15, 2018

MarcR said:

The actions of kings or of non-church or even para-church are not comparable to the systematic policy of the leadership of a body that calls itself a church.
The crusades killed far more Christians and Jews than Moslems and was IN NO WAY obedient to Jesus command to love our enemies. If obedience to Jesus would have resulted in the demise of Christianity then God has no power to protect the Church. I can't accept that! God does indeed have the power to honor His promises.

RexCA;3492216 Call no man father? How do you respond to St. Paul referring to himself as an appointed teacher and spiritual father for the church in that same verse it says not to call any man rabbi said:

How do you respond to St. Paul referring to himself as an appointed teacher and spiritual father for the church

Paul NEVER called himself a 'father' to the church. Paul frequently refers to Timothy as his son because there was an adoption whether or not it was formal.

RexCA;3492216 Scripture never says a "pastor" "must" be the husband of one wife rather in the verse you are speaking of it is saying a bishop must have no more than one wife we can come to this conclusion because St. Paul himself in the scriptures makes note of his own celibacy. [B said:

The Catholic Church also does not force celibacy on priests[/B] not all priests are unmarried some converts are accepted into the priesthood who are already married and many eastern Catholic churches have married priests so this is an invalid argument. Also statistics show men who are Catholic priests are no more likely to commit sexually related crimes than any other men in society so your comment on molestation is just mere hatred. [/QUO TE]

Scripture never says a "pastor" "must" be the husband of one wife rather in the verse you are speaking of it is saying a bishop must have no more than one wife

1 Tim 3:2-5
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
KJV

Titus 1:5-8
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
KJV

1 Tim 4:1-3
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
KJV

The Catholic Church also does not force celibacy on priests If that is the case Why do many former priests find it necessary to leave the priesthood to marry.?

Also statistics show Statistics can show anything you want them to show. In order to mean anything you need to cite a study with meaningful statistical parameters.

so your comment on molestation is just mere hatred Those on the forum who know me know that I am not given to prejudice or hatred. The frequency and pattern of news stories on priestly molestations suggest that it is a result of imposed celibacy.

RexCA;3492216 Yes scripture does teach there is one mediator between God and man Jesus. This is true and Catholics believe this what the verse teaches is that Christ is both God and man and that all grace ultimately comes from Christ. So not sure the point of this comment. St. James did lead the church in Jerusalem this much is acknowledged. St. Peter however lead the church in Antioch and later the church in Rome and because he was killed in Rome said:

Much of your response must be questioned but I will start with your unsound critique of celibacy for practical purposes. First and foremost while it is true that the epistle to St. Timothy does indeed state that a bishop must be a man of one wife. The historical reasoning of this statement must be brought into context as much of St. Paul's letters while obviously be scripture were also initially intended as a means to combat early forms of Gnosticism which were forming some of which practiced polygamy among they're elders. It must also be questioned as to if the interpretation that the verse means that a bishop must have a wife is valid as St. Paul himself was a celibate as was Jesus himself. Both of whom also seem to speak of celibacy of a higher calling as compared to marriage recorded in numerous verses.(Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7:8-9) Also in regards to the verse on a bishop having one wife we should also read a few verses further in(1 Timothy 3:4-5) "for if a man does not know how to handle his household how can he care for God's church?" It also seem obvious that as noted above Jesus himself spoke of celibacy as the higher calling "for some men are made eunuchs by men, while some are born eunuchs of men, and still others are made eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."(Matthew 19) The word eunuch generally means a castrated man, however it should seem clear that Jesus is not saying it is commendable for people to castrate themselves rather what is commendable is for men and women who have been called to due so to give up their own sexuality in self sacrifice. It should again also be clear that within the Catholic Church as well as the scriptures the priesthood(apostleship) is seen as the highest calling in regards to manners of serving the church, now if it were so and it was also so that celibacy was also the higher path in life why would it be improper for celibacy to be required of incoming priests of the Latin tradition. The fact is it is not because not every man is called to be a priest just as every man is not called to live a celibate life such criticisms and insertions are based on nothing but mere confusion.

It must also be pointed out that your claim that "so many priests are leaving to leave the priesthood to marry" is false the fact is the number of priests leaving to get married has significantly decreased within the last 50 years. As for your defense of your claim of celibacy leading to sexual misconduct this not only as already stated goes against grounded understandings in psychology but the scriptures themselves if; a man who chose to follow a celibate path ended up molesting a child there is clearly deeper issues rather than his lack of sexual intercourse. It would seem that a man who had natural heterosexual tendencies(regardless of the level of his sexual activity) who decided to go down a celibate path and later found out he did not have the strength he would end up committing sins related to women rather than young children. The notion that celibacy leads to pedophilia is just obscure and also based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Going back to the initial point as for the role of the bishop. It must be questioned if this verse is even at all relevant to the protestant as most protestants reject bishops regardless if they recognize this or not. The fact of the matter is that the protestant is fully incapable of answering why the scriptures the difference between the deacon, priest, and bishop because they have none of them rather they have "ministers." Granted some will claim I am simply making a presumption based on my own Catholic worldview and the fact of the matter is that is not so, the claim that the terms bishop and priest mean the same thing or rather that presbyter is more correctly translated to elder which is the same thing as a bishop is incorrect. While the scriptures themselves give little indication as to what the entire role of these ranks are we notice very early on in Christian history the elder is equated as the priest and the bishop is equated with the fullness of the priesthood the successor to the apostles. I have already linked quotes from St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Cyprian of Carthage both very instrumental in explaining what the role of the bishop is. However you and the rest on here chose to ignore because you believe it is from a "biased Catholic source", which it was not from a Catholic source to begin with. It must also be noted that from very early on in Christian history it was understood that St. Paul was teaching that a man whom is bishop must have no more than one wife not must have one wife as already stated. In fact very early on the celibacy of the bishop became the norm as well. (early as in early second century early)

As for "call no man father." It should as already stated become very clear that for already stated reason Christ does not mean that it is sinful to refer to a man as a spiritual father. In fact this was what the Israelites did in regards to Abraham and Moses. It as already stated seem fairly obvious that he is referring to the hypocrisy of the rabbis who believed themselves to be gurus or wise men above the rest of the people. As the rest of the chapter is also referring to the Pharisees. And as stated in regards to St. Paul referring to himself as a "spiritual father." To claim that 1 Corinthians 4:15 is referring to a literal adoption as St. Timothy as Paul's son does not make any sense for a few reasons. Firstly this letter was not addressed to St. Timothy but also the fact of the matter is it reads "for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." He is addressing the church in Corinth and also seems very clearly to be calling himself their spiritual father or leader to claim other wise would take some serious explaining. As not only do all Christian religions that trace their origins before the protestant reformation use the title "father" but also the term is found in the writings of the early church in reference to priests and bishops.

In regards to St. Peter as the rock. In my initial statement I made no claim either which way as to how this is to be interpreted in regards to the papacy however I did point out that this is evidence that there is a visible church as Christ did point out "the gates of Hell shall not prevail." But since you chose to attack a premise that I will willingly defend that was not even brought up directly I will do so because it is truth. While it is true that Christ is saying this because the Holy Spirit did indeed reveal to Peter that Jesus is Christ it would seem obscure to interpret as a mere matter of his own conviction rather than a means of the whole church in lieu of the fact that he took the name Peter "Petras" which means rock. The claim of the keys of Heaven is also significant as this has a literal take as you point out yourself in fact your take on the matter of binding and losing is very much accepted by the Catholic Church. However your silence past that point begs the question and it all goes back to the question of interpretation why would it make any sense for Christ to say we all have this power of binding and loosing if that means we all have the power to elaborate on doctrine and definitions of scripture. This all goes back to a verse from 2 Peter which says all prophecies should not be taken as a matter of personal interpretation if this is so it would seem to go in hand with 1 Timothy 3:15 which explains that truth comes from the pillar the church. Now these put together as well as the verse from Matthew seem to clearly indicate that the church is indeed visible to say we have the power to interpret ourselves amongst all this would seem to chose to remain in error or ignorance. So to say St. Peter's faith is a sign of our own spiritual power makes little faith as for the papacy now if the verse was a reference to St. Peter as being the rock rather than us as individuals it would seem that Christ is saying Peter as a role meaning Peter and all that succeed his role have the power to "bind and lose." This would also seem to be consistent with the fact that in the early church the bishop of Rome was the person whom the emperor had the convoke ecumenical councils through and also was seen as the unifying means of leadership of the church. "Where Rome is there is the church" St. Ambrose of Milan
As for your statement on Peter being the little rock and Christ being the big rock of course even the Catholic church would agree with this the big rock being Christ whom the church is founded through is founded upon the small rock St. Peter a normal human is the understanding of the reason for the linguistics here.

Chester · Mar 15, 2018

I don't have time for a long reply here, but one thing to add to the discussion:

The Catholic Church has a long history of persecuting those who do not believe like she does. Torturing, and killing "heretics" has long been the normal response of the Catholic Church to diverse thought.

Let me ask this: Is this how Jesus treated those who opposed him?

One easy way to see the true church down through history is to ask the simple question:

Who are the sheep? Who are the wolves?

Angela53510 · Mar 15, 2018

RexCA said:

I wish to know how I made an "a priori" assumption that the Catholic Church is the true church. First of all I stated that the scriptures indicate quite obviously that there is a visible church that was set in motion by Christ himself so that Christians may be guided into truth rather than through ones own interpretations.(Matthew 16, 1 Timothy 3, John 17) This is not an a priori assumption in regards to the validity of Catholicism as it does not state anything as to who the true church is(granted I would believe it is the Catholic Church). However simply by going over this step there are a few other viable options the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and Churches of the East for example. My statement would simply cross off Protestantism as Protestantism rejects the idea of a "visible entity" in the sense we are speaking of. Granted the protestant can and should question as to how I come up with such a conclusion and how it is not merely my own personal conclusion or why it is any more valid than the protestant who claims the church is fully invisible this leads me to my next point lets look at some quotes from some early Christians whom I think would known better than you or I on the matter.

St. Clement, Letterto the Corinthians, 42, 1 (ANF, Vol. I)

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the LordJesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so from God. Christtherefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Boththese appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, accordingto the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, andbeing fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ,and established in the word of God, with full assurance of theHoly Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of Godwas at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities,they appointed the first-fruits [of their labors], having firstproved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those whoshould afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, sinceindeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops anddeacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, "Iwill appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deaconsin faith."

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letterto the Magnesians, 6-7 (ANF, Vol., I)

Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned,beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort youto study to do all things with a divine harmony, while yourbishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in theplace of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons,who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry ofJesus Christ. He, being begotten by the Father before thebeginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, andremains the same for ever; for "of His kingdom there shallbe no end," says Daniel the prophet. Let us all thereforelove one another in harmony, and let no one look upon hisneighbor according to the flesh, but in Christ Jesus. Let nothingexist among you which may divide you; but be united with yourbishop, being through him subject to God in Christ.As therefore the Lord does nothing without the Father, forsays He, "I can of mine own self do nothing," so doyou, neither presbyter, nor deacon, nor layman, do anythingwithout the bishop. Nor let anything appear commendable to youwhich is destitute of his approval. For every such thing issinful, and opposed[to the will of] God. Come together into thesame place for prayer. Let there be one common supplication, onemind, one hope, with faith unblameable in Christ Jesus, thanwhich nothing is more excellent. Do you all, as one man, runtogether into the temple of God, as unto one altar, to one JesusChrist, the High Priest of the unbegotten God.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letterto the Trallians, 2-3 (ANF, Vol. I)

Be subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for "he watchesfor your souls, as one that shall give account to God."Wherefore also, you appear to me to live not after the manner ofmen, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in orderthat, by believing in His death, you may by baptism be madepartakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary,whatsoever things you do, to do nothing without the bishop. Andbe subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of JesusChrist, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found.In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as anappointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, whois the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrin ofGod, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is noChurch. Concerning all this, I am persuaded that you are of thesame opinion. For I have received the manifestations of yourlove, and still have it with me, in your bishop, whose veryappearance is highly instructive, and his meekness of itself apower; whom I imagine even the ungodly must reverence.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letterto the Philadelphians, 4,1 (ANF, Vol. I)

Wherefore I write boldly to your love, which is worthy of God,and exhort you to have but one faith, and one [kind of]preaching, and one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of the LordJesus Christ; and His blood which was shed for us is one; oneloaf also is broken to all [the communicants], and one cup isdistributed among them all: there is but one altar for the wholeChurch, and one bishop, with the presbytery and deacons, myfellow-servants. Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being,God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Wordand man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also onepreaching, and one faith, and one baptism; and one Church whichthe holy apostles established from one end of the earth to theother by the blood of Christ, and by their own sweat and toil; itbehooves you also, therefore, as "a peculiar people, and aholy nation," to perform all things with harmony in Christ.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letterto the Smyrnaeans, 8-9 (ANF, Vol. I)

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ doesthe Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; andreverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let noman do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Letthat be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] eitherby the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Whereverthe bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people]also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the CatholicChurch. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize orto celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of,that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done maybe secure and valid... It is not lawful without the bishopeither to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or tocelebrate a love-feast. But that which seems good to him, is alsowell-pleasing to God, that everything you do may be secure andvalid.And say I, Honor God indeed, as the Author and Lord of allthings, but the bishop as the high-priest, who bears the image ofGod—of God. inasmuch as he is a ruler, and of Christ, in hiscapacity of a priest. After Him, we must also honor the king. Forthere is no one superior to God, or even like to Him, among allthe beings that exist. Nor is there any one in the Church greaterthan the bishop, who ministers as a priest to God for thesalvation of the whole world. Nor, again, is there any one amongrulers to be compared with the king, who secures peace and goodorder to those over whom he rules. He who honors the bishop shallbe honored by God, even as he that dishonors him shall bepunished by God. For if he that rises up against kings is justlyheld worthy of punishment, inasmuch as he dissolves public order,of how much sorer punishment, do you suppose, shall he be thoughtworthy, who presumes to do anything without the bishop, thus bothdestroying the[Church's] unity, and throwing its order intoconfusion? For the priesthood is the very highest point of allgood things among men, against which whosoever is mad enough tostrive, dishonors not man, but God, and Christ Jesus, theFirst-born, and the only High Priest, by nature, of the Father.Let all things therefore be done by you with good order inChrist. Let the laity be subject to the deacons; the deacons tothe presbyters; the presbyters to the bishop; the bishop toChrist, even as He is to the Father.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letterwithout heading to the Lapsed (ANF, Vol, V)

Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe,describing the honor of a bishop and the order of His Church,speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: "I say unto you,That you are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. 16.18).And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: andwhatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: andwhatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed inheaven." Thence, through the changes of times andsuccessions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Churchflow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, andevery act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, EpistleXXXIX, Letter to the People (ANF, Vol, V)

There is one God, and Christ is one, and there is one Church,and one chair founded upon the rock by the word of the Lord.Another altar cannot be constituted nor a new priesthood be made,except the one altar and the one priesthood. Whosoever gatherselsewhere, scatters.

St. Irenaeus, AgainstAll Heresies, IV, 26, 2 (ANF, Vol. I)

Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are inthe Church,—those who, as I have shown, possess the successionfrom the apostles; those who, together with the succession of theepiscopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according tothe good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] tohold in suspicion others who depart from the primitivesuccession, and assemble themselves together in any placewhatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverseminds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again ashypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. Forall these have fallen from the truth

St. Irenaeus, AgainstAll Heresies, V, 20 (ANF, Vol. I)

It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and totake careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but toflee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and benourished with the Lord's Scriptures. For the Church has beenplanted as a garden (paradise) in this world; therefore says theSpirit of God, "You may freely eat from every tree of thegarden," that is, Eat from every Scripture of the Lord; butyou shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any hereticaldiscord. For these men do profess that they have themselves theknowledge of good and evil; and they set their own impious mindsabove the God who made them. They therefore form opinions on whatis beyond the limits of the understanding. For this cause alsothe apostle says, "Be not wise beyond what it is fitting tobe wise, but be wise prudently," that we be not east forthby eating of the "knowledge" of these men (thatknowledge which knows more than it should do) from the paradiseof life.

Tertullian, PrescriptionAgainst the Heretics, XX, 4 (ANF, Vol. III)

Immediately, therefore, so did the apostles, whom thisdesignation indicates as "the sent." Having, on theauthority of a prophecy, which occurs in a psalm of David, chosenMatthias by lot as the twelfth, into the place of Judas, theyobtained the promised power of the Holy Ghost for the gift ofmiracles and of utterance; and after first bearing witness to thefaith in Jesus Christ throughout Judea, and rounding churches(there), they next went forth into the world and preached thesame doctrine of the same faith to the nations. They then in likemanner rounded churches in every city, from which all the otherchurches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith,and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, thatthey may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only thatthey will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being theoffspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing mustnecessarily revert to its original for its classification.Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great,comprise but the one primitive Church, (rounded) by the apostles,from which they all (spring). In this way all are primitive, andall are apostolic, whilst they are all proved to be one, in(unbroken) unity, by their peaceful communion, and title ofbrotherhood, and bond of hospitality,—privileges which no otherrule directs than the one tradition of the selfsame mystery.

St. Augustine: TheHoly Spirit the Soul of the Church (PL 38, Sermo 267; SundaySermons, Vol. III, 27-28)

... What the soul is to the body of man, the Holy Ghost isto the Body of Christ: which the Church is. What the soul does inall the members of one body, this the Holy Spirit does throughoutthe Church ... Do you think the soul follows the part cut thus off? While itbelonged to the body it lived. Cut off it loses life. So likewisethe Christian Catholic man; while in the Body he lives, becomingheretic he is cut off, for the Spirit follows no amputatedmember. If therefore you wish to live in the Holy Ghost, holdfast to the bond of charity, love the Truth, long for Unity, thatyou may attain to eternity.

The discussion as to who the true church actually is, is another conversation for another day I am still waiting for any sort of historical, scriptural, or logical proof that can show that Protestantism is at least a viable option. On the other hand as for your comment on the ranks of the clergy merely being one as elders and the deacon merely being a layman. Again let's look at 1 Timothy 3 to see what St. Paul has to say on the order of bishop, priest, and deacon, the elder being the priest.

Wow! I had no idea the early church fathers wrote in 17 or 18th century English. My understanding is that they wrote in Greek! (Except for Augustine, who was a Latin Church Father, and some of Protestantism is based on his writings!)

We studied some of the early church fathers, in Greek. As in translating it to modern English. They do quote the Bible a lot, which gives us great value in establishing when the Byzantine tradition changed the manuscripts. They also say a lot of extra-Biblical stuff, like “if a traveling evangelist stays for more than 2 days, or asks for money, he is a false prophet! (Didache 11:5-6). Now, that is not true, even though I think it would have avoided a lot of issues with false prosperity teachers, and indeed, with the corrupt RCC hierarchy.

For example, my French grandmother lived within hearing range of the guns booming in WWI. They crops weren’t planted for years in some places, leading to starvation. And yet, the RCC priests would go door to door harassing people for money for masses for the dead. When they protested that their children were starving, they would answer back their relatives were in pain in purgatory, and they needed money to say masses for their souls, a totally Biblical concept. I know those evil priests, to say nothing of the church hierarchy living behind their solid gold doors at the Vatican. But they will have received their reward, for trusting in false masses, rather than in the living God - Jesus Christ.

(My grandmother walked away from “religion” this so turned her off the church. She died before I was saved, I wish I could have had the opportunity to speak with her about who Jesus really was, not some magical-thinking, unBiblical mass, where you eat some dead bread, drink, some dead wine. And those representational elements have somehow by magic been changed into some kind of present time torture of Jesus Christ, who was there when he said the words.)

Which brings me back to your use of archaic language. Perhaps you might consider talking to the people on the KJV ONLY threads. They might understand your use of that form of English better than I do.

PS I am another who won’t read junior high type run-on sentences. Learn some basic English writing skills, and then we will be able to discuss and counter what you are actually trying to say!

Wow, Dino! Now I am utterly terrified to write a run on sentence. If only it were German, so much easier to add clause after clause, and have it work beautifully! LOL

RexCA · Mar 15, 2018

Angela53510 said:

These are clearly translations I would think that would have been self explanatory. As for Protestantism being based on the writings of St. Augustine, it is claimed to be based on his writings in light of Luther and Calvin however if you read his works especially City of God it becomes increasingly clear that he did not support much of what is attributed to him through Calvin and Luther(double predestination). Another point is that he speaks also of the real presence in communion and the act being a sacrifice the same sacrifice that Christ offered for us on the cross, which is a view that Luther called idolatrous ironically even more ironically this is also the view of the Catholic Church. On the other hand any teachings from any church fathers other than Augustine himself are completely foreign to protestant theology and the names are for the most part unknown with the sole exception of possibly St. Jerome. As for Catholic priests going door to door to look for money to prayer for the dead? That is a flat out lie based on false presumptions that the abuse that took place in the church among certain priests in "selling indulgences" was a church wide issue; it wasn't it mostly was a problem in what is now Germany. As for your grandmother leaving Catholicism I cannot speak for that nor do I know the reasons as to why so I will refrain from commenting, however to make the claim that Catholic views are false without reason all the while responding to a post with quotes from the fathers that very much show early church support for modern Catholic theology seems strange. Anyhow I wonder what you mean by "use of archaic language" it seems as if this is based on the mere inability to comprehend or the sheer ignorance of such I have not used terms such as shalt or though or thy.

Dino246 · Mar 15, 2018

Angela53510 said:

No need to fear! I would only call out the most egregious of offenders on this matter.

Angela53510 · Mar 15, 2018

RexCA said:

So were you in France during WWI? Are you calling my grandmother a liar? My grandmother just told what she saw, and never was a word said about indulgences, which yes, were another good reason for the Protestant Reformation, but centuries earlier. Since the Catholic hierarchy would not police itself, nor curb its unbiblical excesses, someone had to do it.

My grandmother was there, in France, in Bruay, une petite Ville au nord du France. She married my grandfather, an injured Canadian soldier, and when he brought her to Canada, she never darkened a church door again. And when asked she told of her neighbours, BY NAME, who had priests on their doorstep, demanding money for masses for their dead relatives. I guess offerings fell off, seeing as the war was at their doorstep, and their children were starving to death. How lacking in compassion, for priests to do this! Perhaps the Vatican should have sold some of its holdings, or relics, or whatever, and then the children could have had some food to eat!

As for the unBiblical nonsense of masses for the dead, when my RCC uncle died in 2011, I was at his funeral, and my husband was a pallbearer. My Baptist cousin and a Lutheran friend changed the order of service, so that there were no "prayers for the dead." The priest, from somewhere in India, said "He HAS to have sins he needs a mass to cleanse him of, and he will need more. Do you want him to stay in purgatory forever?" Now, not about money, although I know my aunt and other cousin gave liberally to the RCC, which is their perfect right. But, a mass to get out of purgatory? Because Christ's death wasn't enough to atone for my uncle's sins?

Those are only 2 incidents about masses for the dead. The point being, Christ's sacrifices were enough!

"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:11-14 ESV

That's it - a single offering! Not this constant offering Jesus death daily through the abomination known as the mass. As for you calling my grandmother a liar, you have been reported!

Nehemiah6 · Mar 15, 2018

RexCA said:

Since even the Pope has admitted that there is corruption in the Catholic church, how come you have failed to dig out this information for yourself? This is from the National Catholic Reporter.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-admits-corruption-vatican

ROME — Pope Francis admitted to the leaders of the world's Catholic male religious orders in a meeting last fall that the Vatican is a corrupt place, but said he is at peace in his work reforming the church's command structures. "There is corruption in the Vatican," the pontiff told members of the Union of Superiors General Nov. 26, according to a report of the meeting released for the first time Thursday by the Italian Jesuit magazine La Civilta Cattolica.

But since the title of this thread is "The Reformation" I am sure you know why Martin Luther made a stink about the corruption in the sale of indulgences. And that was only the tip of the iceberg.

garee · Mar 15, 2018

I would think the father of all Spirits is alone called spiritual Holy Father . He commands us to call no man father on earth in that way?

Before or after his conversion from the Pharisee with Sadducees sects to the new sect, the Nazarene denomination/?

Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

The Catholic sect is not listed.

What did Paul as Saul as a law of the fathers teach before his conversion ? Did he previous walk by sight as if the kingdom of God was of this world?

vic1980 · Mar 16, 2018

I guess i am late to post my view to RexCA , perhaps you may read it . Examine what he wrote down below to have a better view of his world through his eyes.

William Tyndale english translation brought " The Light " to the people to read , in there native language , before the king gave permission to published the translation in 1538 two years after his martyr.

Let us examine the world of William tyndale . In His very own words , how was it to live in such a era , controlled by the Papacy.

Preface to The Pentateuch (1530)

Quote from above: Finally in this they be all agreed, to drive you from the knowledge of the scripture, and that ye shall not have the text thereof in the mother tongue, and to keep the world still in darkness, to the intent they might sit in the consciences of the people, through vain superstition and false doctrine, to satisfy their filthy lusts, their proud ambition, and unsatiable covetousness, and to exalt their own honor above King and Emperor, yea, and above God himself.

Quote from above: Under what manner therefore should I now submit this book to be corrected and amended of them, which can suffer nothing to be well? Or what protestation should I make in such a matter unto our prelates, those stubborn Nimrods which so mightily fight against God and resist his holy spirit, enforcing with all craft and subtlety to quench the light of the everlasting testament, promises, and appointment made between God and us? And heaping the fierce wrath of God upon all princes and rulers, mocking them with false feigned names of hypocrisy, and serving their lusts at all points, and dispensing with them even of the very laws of God, of which Christ himself testifieth (Matthew 5) that not so much as one tittle thereof may perish or be broken. And of which the prophet sayeth (Psalm 118): Thou hast commanded thy laws to be kept "meod", that is in Hebrew "exceedingly," with all diligence, might, and power, and have made them so mad with their juggling charms and crafty persuasions that they think it full satisfaction for all their wicked living, to torment such as tell them truth, and to burn the word of their soul's health, and slay whosoever believe thereon.

An answer unto sir Thomas More's dialogue (1531).

Take heed, therefore, wicked prelates, blind leaders of the blind; indurate and obstinate hypocrites, take heed …. Ye will be the chiefest in Christ's flock, and yet will not keep one jot of the right way of his doctrine …ye keep thereof almost naught at all, but whatsoever soundeth to make of your bellies, to maintain your honour, whether in the Scripture, or in your own traditions, or in the pope's law, that ye compel the lay-people to observe; violently threatening them with your excommunications and curses, that they shall be damned, body and soul, if they keep them not. And if that help you not, then ye murder them mercilessly with the sword of the temporal powers, whom ye have made so blind that they be ready to slay whom ye command, and will not hear his cause examined, nor give him room to answer for himself.

Re-read thee last part were Tyndale stated the pope law !!!

Very Important to have a accurate account on how much power RCC had in this time period.

Shalom

wolfwint · Mar 16, 2018

RexCA said:

First and foremost not considering yourself something does not mean you are not something but that is another conversation. And I am not sure what you mean by 40 also your understanding of a religious order in the context of Catholicism is way off base and has nothing to do with my comment on there being 40,000+ protestant denominations or sects. The problem with this is first and foremost your understanding of a "religious order" is that it is not a smaller religious sect within the context of a larger religious movement as Lutherans are to protestants for example rather it is a way of life that is fully Catholic, all Catholic religious orders have the same religious beliefs that merely have different ways of life and different "rules of life" expressing how it is to be lived out that differ for example the life of a Carthusian monk is far more austere than that of a Jesuit priest and even then the Jesuit's life is far more austere than that of the average layman so this right here is a straw man's argument. And the fact of the matter does remain that Protestantism is not a religion rather it is a movement with thousands of religions within it, it should be very obvious that the Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, and Pentecostal have very different ideas on some core aspects of Christianity some such as the Methodist or Anglican would even reject the Lutheran interpretations of the 5 solas the only unity in the movement that followed the reformation is the belief that the Catholic Church is false merely on historical grounds restorationists such as Mormons or JWs could be considered protestants.

I never even mentioned anything about St. Peter being the rock(however I would believe that, that is beyond what I stated and has nothing to do with my point) so this again is a straw man fallacy the point I was making was that regardless what you interpret the church to be Christ told Peter the gates of Hell would not prevail meaning that Christians should be in unity on belief in doctrine and understanding other verses back(John 17, 1 Timothy 3, Luke 22) your statement on the old testament has nothing to do with anything I stated and just shows that your mind was all over the place when typing this your statement on "pagan nonsense" in regards to Catholicism in the following bullet merely shows bias and a lack of understanding of Catholic belief both due to a lack of examples and a lack of reasoning as to why you chose to commit the fallacy of "ad hominem" or attacking the person.

Your statement on Psalm 119 and "sola scriptura" makes very little sense as nothing of the "word" or the "scriptures" is ever even mentioned nothing that could even be indirectly interpreted to refer to sola scriptura is said in this verse it should also be pointed out the book of Psalms was written before Jesus by King David, David was Jewish in faith Judaism has always had a teaching of oral tradition backing up the scripture so this comment makes almost no sense. I also find humor in your comment on the apostolic fathers I would enjoy to hear what fathers you are "familiar" with as absolutely 0 of even the apostolic fathers taught concepts such as "sola scriptura" or "sola fide". In fact St. Ignatius of Antioch a second generation Christian and personal disciple of St. John said in the year 107 AD that it is the "bishop" who speaks in the place of the apostle very clearly indicating that both apostolic succession is accurate and that there is a visible institutional church that is lead by Christ to lead believers into truth. Both him and a later "apostolic father" St. Irenaeus of Lyons(130 AD-202 AD) very clearly taught the real presence view of the Eucharist meaning that the consecrated bread and wine are literally the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ and is the central point of the Christian faith. Your statement on the second century being a turning point makes little sense as well as if we review what the fathers taught it was very clear that the orthodox fathers who eventually aligned themselves with the councils and later the Catholic Church show a very clear historical succession of ideas. However what does pop up in the second century is non-trinitarianism, subordinatianism, and new forms of Gnosticism all of which are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church into the modern age and if the fathers such as Ignatius deviated from the truth so early on with there being no sign of what the protestant believes to be true in this era or for another 1400 years we can logically take from that, that Christianity is false(if we are taking the presumption that Catholicism is false). At the same time the most widely criticized Catholic practice "veneration of saints" was already evident in the first century not only do we see scriptural support in Revelation 5(the prayers of the saints will go up as a cloud of incense) and in Hebrews 12 where it says "But you have approached Mt. Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem and the myriad of angels, and the assembly of the church firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a New Covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel" evidently early fathers also spoke as these verses as having baked up the veneration of saints and the saint being those in Heaven who are closer to Christ so essentially it is believed they can pray for us just as anyone within the church can pray for another however the saints prayers are viewed as much more effective because of the closeness to God. So in essence this comment shows a lack of understanding of history.

Well, how do you think that the RCC is the real church?
Which follows the word and love of our Lord Jesus. Of course all the denominations are man made and some follows doctrines which I cant support. But as an child of God in fact see me as christian and not as member of any denominatìon.
A part of my relatives are Rcc members so I know little about their believe system. Non of them are bornagain. The church and the pope is for them more important then Jesus. The RCC fights against other christians in the past. Present we see that they try to unit christianity under their
Wings. I wrote im another thread about a statement from Keith Green about the RCC worth to read. But if you read the bible and compare it with the practice of the RCC you can only come to the conclusion that they are very far away to be followers of Jesus. Instead mostly they show themselve as enemy of Christ in persecute ore discredit children of God.

wolfwint · Mar 16, 2018

Sorry, i meant: I read in another thread. Not I wrote!

vic1980 · Mar 18, 2018

Before this thread goes into thee deep archives of cc , for future refrences i want you all to study upon these things if you are not aware of them. History is of much importance to understand the future.

The Treaty of Paris

The Treaty of Paris, signed on September 3, 1783, ended the American Revolutionary War between Great Britain the American Colonies. Peace negotiations began in April of 1782 in the Hotel d'York involving American representatives Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, Henry Laurens, and John Adams. The British representatives present were David Hartley and Richard Oswald.

In the Name of the most Holy & undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire

Historians have so many written compact upon the powers that thee RCC wield , over Kings and rulers and thee lay people that could not be edited to fit on this post. Now unto further examination , consider this and ponder on it , research upon it to find what is valid from void.

If King George the Third is thee arch-treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire , then who is commanding the King .

Answer : Thee pontifex maximus that sitteth on the throne in Vatican city. Remind oneself this was 16 years , before napoleon general capture Pope Pius VI in 1798.

Now you can identify which beast head was wounded in revelation 13:3

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Treaty of Paris 1783 Link : http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-declaration-of-independence/treaty-of-paris/

Shalom & God Bless

vic1980 · Mar 18, 2018

Men like James Madison warn those living in the past/present to beware of such a mix happening on this land. Because he along with many other understood the history of thee Papacy/RCC and it's influences among the Kings of Europe.

Be reminded thee Papacy is a Church & State Union .

" The purpose of separation of church & state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries. " James Madison 4th President of The United States

God Word points us back to a adversary from the past that was wounded then healed.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Shalom

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