To day thou shalt be with me in paradise

[Devolution]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.

Straight forward statement isn't it, or is it? Many argue what state the soul is in after death of the flesh. Is it in a concious state in paradise as Christ promised the thief, or in an unconcious state awaiting resurrection on a set day?
Christs blunt declaration answers that question for many to favour the former. But are we missing something so very simple which will lead us to the true answer of this question? Christ said seek and ye shall find. Read Luke 23:43 again, notice anything amiss? Something very simple? Okay, lets cut to the chase. Christ was crucified, that we all agree on, He died, also true, what happened next? Did He go to paradise that day? NO. He was in the belly of death until His Father raised Him on the first day of the week after the sabbath ! No paradise that day ! So what did He mean? He obviously didn't lie to the thief, so there is something else going on needing our attention. Since Psalm 6:5, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 & 9:10 tell us a story in themselves , we then need ask, how could the thief be with Christ that day in paradise when Christ wasn't raised until after the sabbath? Consider this, taking heed of the scripture above, if we know nothing when we die, what does that imply? Yet when we are raised we are aware once again ! Something is 'standing still' , & that something would mean absolutely nothing to the 'sleeper'. And when that something is removed and the soul is once again aware, no matter how much time had passed, days, years , centuries, eons etc etc , their very last memorioes on this world would be remembering their very last day, it would still be TODAY for them !! So that thing that stands still is TIME. All seemingly contradictory scripture is now upheld. Death is but an instant. Think of going under before surgery, what do most people ask post op? You guessed it, When is the operation? I haven't finished counting. Time stood still. That is death. That great day of resurrection is upheld. Please ponder on it to yourselves. Amen.

 

[forerunner]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.

Straight forward statement isn't it, or is it? Many argue what state the soul is in after death of the flesh. Is it in a concious state in paradise as Christ promised the thief, or in an unconcious state awaiting resurrection on a set day?
Christs blunt declaration answers that question for many to favour the former. But are we missing something so very simple which will lead us to the true answer of this question? Christ said seek and ye shall find. Read Luke 23:43 again, notice anything amiss? Something very simple? Okay, lets cut to the chase. Christ was crucified, that we all agree on, He died, also true, what happened next? Did He go to paradise that day? NO. He was in the belly of death until His Father raised Him on the first day of the week after the sabbath ! No paradise that day !

The rest of you post is irrelevant not that it is not relevant to you, but to my response as that understanding that brought you to the question and explanation of what Jesus actually meant is flawed. The problem is what you think paradise to be. Paradise was not in Heaven it was in the belly of the Earth across from Hell itself in Luke 16 during the story of the rich man and Lazarus it was called Abraham's Bosom. This is were the O.T. saints went to await Salvation through the coming Messiah. They could not go to Heaven because the blood of goats only covered their sin it did not wash it away. At the death of Christ Jesus as well as the thief did go immediately to paradise/ Abraham's Bosom, as Christ preach to those who had passed before Him, giving them complete salvation and allowing them to be removed from paradise and enter into Heaven.

 

[Devolution]

You are discribing a parable. It is not a real place. Luke 16:23 .. and in HELL he lift up ....etc etc..one major flaw in your subtle insult is this : Psalm 16:10 For Thou wilt not leave My soul in HELL, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption. And just in case that confuses you into thinking David is talking about his own soul see Acts 2:31 He (David) seeing this before spake of the resurrection of CHRIST, that HIS soul was not left in hell , NEITHER His flesh did see corruption. So you see it's your understanding of paradise and of hell that is flawed. Didn' see that one did you?Jesus's soul went to HELLl. Your whole argument is now null and void. The truth prevails.

 

[Devolution]

Actually my response sounded a bit like yours, I apologise , words appear too sharp when written. But now you see , As i first posted , they didn't go to paradise that day. So now you need ask what then is hell ? Because it's obviously not what you thought. Good luck.

 

[forerunner]

You are discribing a parable. It is not a real place. Luke 16:23 .. and in HELL he lift up ....etc etc..one major flaw in your subtle insult is this : Psalm 16:10 For Thou wilt not leave My soul in HELL, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption. And just in case that confuses you into thinking David is talking about his own soul see Acts 2:31 He (David) seeing this before spake of the resurrection of CHRIST, that HIS soul was not left in hell , NEITHER His flesh did see corruption. So you see it's your understanding of paradise and of hell that is flawed. Didn' see that one did you?Jesus's soul went to HELLl. Your whole argument is now null and void. The truth prevails.

What in the story of the rich man and Lazarus causes you to believe it is a parable.. this is a true story there is no reason it should be taken otherwise.

 

[forerunner]

Actually my response sounded a bit like yours, I apologise , words appear too sharp when written. But now you see , As i first posted , they didn't go to paradise that day. So now you need ask what then is hell ? Because it's obviously not what you thought. Good luck.

Hell is what I though it was, paradise is what I though is was, Heaven is what I think it is, the lake of fire is what I think it is, and New Jerusalem is what I think it is. Why you ask? Iam i so brillant? Nope I just believe the bible

 

[superdave5221]

You are discribing a parable. It is not a real place. Luke 16:23 .. and in HELL he lift up ....etc etc..one major flaw in your subtle insult is this : Psalm 16:10 For Thou wilt not leave My soul in HELL, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption. And just in case that confuses you into thinking David is talking about his own soul see Acts 2:31 He (David) seeing this before spake of the resurrection of CHRIST, that HIS soul was not left in hell , NEITHER His flesh did see corruption. So you see it's your understanding of paradise and of hell that is flawed. Didn' see that one did you?Jesus's soul went to HELLl. Your whole argument is now null and void. The truth prevails.

The word translated Hell in your version is the Hebrew word Sheol, (in Psalms16:10; Gr. Hades in Acts 2:31 and Luke 16:23), which actually means according to ancient Israelite cosmology, to be the realm of the dead, viewed as being under the earth's surface. It does not mean hell. The term Hades in Greek N.T. usage had an additional connotation of being the place where one awaited judgement. This is because Abraham's bosom was removed by Jesus from the underworld and taken to heaven with Him after His resurrection. From this point on, only the place of torment remained, which will be thrown into Hell after the final judgement.

Parables are not untruthful or fictional. Their use is in masking truth from those who cannot spirtually discern it. Abraham's bosom was known as paradise.

 

[Devolution]

Don't put words into my mouth, i never said parables are untruthful or fictional, i said THAT parable. You explanation comes from the teachings of men not God. Nowhere in the bible does it state your explanations. In the corridors of religions yes, bible no. That parable in Luke is the only one of it's kind and if taken as real then many other quotes come into contradiction. And since God doesn't contradict we then must read between the lines instead of forming a whole thesis to understand it. Basing your argument on the ancient Israeli cosmology is unwise since God stated in Isaiah 5:13 Therefore are My people gone into captivity, because they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE.. Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee... Go right back to Exodus and keep going all the way to the N.T. The same theme runs through, The Hebrews are stiffnecked and rebellious, not knowing God except for a small remnant in each generation. So these ancient texts you put your faith in are from the learned 'schools' of the reprobates, teaching their commandments as though they were God's, these remnants were outside those vain postulatings, no doubt ridiculed also by the 'mainstream' of their times. Yes parables are for masking the true meanings to the spiritualy discerned, you have just shown that in yourself. Where is Abraham? His grave is still with us. In the bosom of Abraham is symbolic for being accepted of God, entering into the promise which Abraham shares and awaits in hell, which is death, where Jesus' soul went, which is but an instant, so awaiting is just a metaphor not an actual biding of time,your explanation sounds very catholic, go and learn what this means.

 

[Devolution]

i need to clarify my last lines, awaiting, for the ones waiting (dead) , experience no lapse of time in a concious state, there is a period of waiting that we the living experience, they the dead are oblivious to it though. So to Abraham when he is risen on that great day it would to him seem as though he immediately went to God since time stood still, but in actual fact thousands of years have lapsed.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

What about the appearance of Abraham and Moses at the time of Christ's Transformation?

 

[Greek_student]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 & 9:10 tell us a story in themselves

Yes this does, good point, glad you brought it up. The teaching of Soul Sleep is totally false, it can be proven in these same verses you use. I will share this with you..

Look at the CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT here. It says "do what you can NOW!" we don't see the context as SOUL SLEEP. This can be proven by the context. Soul Sleep can be disproved every time because that teaching can not see the forest for the trees. And that teaching don't teach all the words rendered Grave. Even your Question, in the Greek grammar it can prove "you are going right now" not "I say to you right now" Look into the words here lets look at what DR. Z Is pointing out here, in his "life after death" book Lets look at Page 46.

When anyone uses the present indicative form of a verb, he does not need to use the adverb "today"because it is implicit in the tense of the verb...

See, its stuff like this that Refutes false teachings! So, Hope that gives you a good start

 

[ed]

Hell is what I though it was, paradise is what I though is was, Heaven is what I think it is, the lake of fire is what I think it is, and New Jerusalem is what I think it is. Why you ask? Iam i so brillant? Nope I just believe the bible

Hi forerunner,
Do you believe the Son of God is the Son of God or God or 50-50.
love
edwin

 

[superdave5221]

Don't put words into my mouth, i never said parables are untruthful or fictional, i said THAT parable. You explanation comes from the teachings of men not God. Nowhere in the bible does it state your explanations. In the corridors of religions yes, bible no. That parable in Luke is the only one of it's kind and if taken as real then many other quotes come into contradiction. And since God doesn't contradict we then must read between the lines instead of forming a whole thesis to understand it. Basing your argument on the ancient Israeli cosmology is unwise since God stated in Isaiah 5:13 Therefore are My people gone into captivity, because they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE.. Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee... Go right back to Exodus and keep going all the way to the N.T. The same theme runs through, The Hebrews are stiffnecked and rebellious, not knowing God except for a small remnant in each generation. So these ancient texts you put your faith in are from the learned 'schools' of the reprobates, teaching their commandments as though they were God's, these remnants were outside those vain postulatings, no doubt ridiculed also by the 'mainstream' of their times. Yes parables are for masking the true meanings to the spiritualy discerned, you have just shown that in yourself. Where is Abraham? His grave is still with us. In the bosom of Abraham is symbolic for being accepted of God, entering into the promise which Abraham shares and awaits in hell, which is death, where Jesus' soul went, which is but an instant, so awaiting is just a metaphor not an actual biding of time,your explanation sounds very catholic, go and learn what this means.

Your incoherent ramblings are difficult to respond to. I will try to respond to a few points however. First of all, I am not Catholic and Hades is not purgatory. Second, you accuse me of teaching the commandments of men, but provide no scripture to show me wrong. In addition, you say that if real, Abramam's bosom would contradict the bible in other places. Where? Third, you have a very difficult time in ordering your thoughts into sensible and logical conclusions. Perhaps you could try to outline your ideas before putting them into writing. Maybe then they would make some sense.

Now, if you use a little logic and understanding, it should be apparent to you that if Hell is where those who reject God go to, then why would Jesus go there? Secondly, such Godly men as Jacob (Genesis 37:35), Job (Job 17:13), David (Psalm 16:10) and Hezekiah (Isaiah 38:18) expected to go there, and would still be there if what you say is true (the Hebrew term Sheol used in these verses is the same one translated Hell in the ones you quoted).

Next, look at Revelation 20:14.

Revelation 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So if Hades is Hell, then John in Revelation is saying that Hell will be thrown into Hell? Now does that make sense to you? And what about the final judgement? Will people be sent to Hell at death, only to be retrieved at Jesus' return to be judged, and then thrown back into Hell again?

Furthermore:

Ephesians 4: 8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth ?

What does this passage mean to you? To most scholars it means that Jesus led those who were held captive in Abraham's bosom to heaven with Him. This left only the place of torment, to be thrown into the lake of fire after the judgement. If Jacob, David, Job, and Hezekiah were there, they would be thrown into Hell as well! This obviously is not the case. And it should also be apparent to you that "lower parts of the earth" where Jesus descended to, is not Hell.

 

[forerunner]

What about the appearance of Abraham and Moses at the time of Christ's Transformation?

That was Elijah, and Moses

 

[forerunner]

Hi forerunner,
Do you believe the Son of God is the Son of God or God or 50-50.
love
edwin

Well that is off the subject isn't, and what ever you point was supposed to be you would be in the minority when deny Christ's deity.

 

[forerunner]

i need to clarify my last lines, awaiting, for the ones waiting (dead) , experience no lapse of time in a concious state, there is a period of waiting that we the living experience, they the dead are oblivious to it though. So to Abraham when he is risen on that great day it would to him seem as though he immediately went to God since time stood still, but in actual fact thousands of years have lapsed.

Soul sleep is a false doctrine, not supportedbby scripture. I tried to explain to you your error, but it seems your mind is made up.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Soul sleep is a false doctrine, not supportedbby scripture. I tried to explain to you your error, but it seems your mind is made up.

Have you referred to the Greek text regarding "sleep"? In Strong's Greek 2837 references those who died and now are asleep, sleep, sleepeth, and sleeping. Here are the KJV scriptures that relate to sleep that means "dead".PLEASE NOTE that the word "sleep and all variations of sleep ie sleepeth, asleep, slept, etc." is used in all of those translations below". There is no confusion in these scriptures because they are very plain. Also I agree that when we die we sleep and there is a time of no time (time ceased) for the sleep. With so many scriptures and translations agreeing with sleep of reference only to the dead, it is very hard for many to not take this word literally and again I emphasize this is the Strong's Greek 2837 = "dead" for KJV

PLEASE NOTE that the word "sleep and all variations of sleep ie sleepeth, asleep, slept, etc." is used in all of those translations below ie NIV, NLT, etc."

(KJV) John 11:12, Acts 13:36, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 15:51, 1 Thes 4:14, John 11:11, Lu 22:45, Acts 12:6, Matt 27:52, Matt 28:13, 1Cor 15:20, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6, 15:8, 1 Thes 4:13, 15; 2 Peter 3:4 (KJV)

Regarding "soul(s)".
Searching the scriptures on "soul(s), I have found thus far they are "living soul(s)"ie NOT DEAD. However, while not exhausted, I did find one that puzzles the "soul" . written in the KJV, however three other translations are stating "life" and not using the word "soul".

1 Kings 17:21 KJV)
And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1 Kings 17:22
And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

(NIV)

21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD, "O LORD my God, let this boy's life return to him!" 22 The LORD heard Elijah's cry, and the boy's life returned to him, and he lived.


(NLT)

21 And he stretched himself out over the child three times and cried out to the Lord, “O Lord my God, please let this child’s life return to him.” 22 The Lord heard Elijah’s prayer, and the life of the child returned, and he revived!

(CEV)

21Elijah stretched himself out over the boy three times, while praying, "LORD God, bring this boy back to life!" 22The LORD answered Elijah's prayer, and the boy started breathing again.



Thanks for this thread, it really does assist me in deeper Bible Study.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

That was Elijah, and Moses

You're right, my mistake.